31/10 or 30/11 for tanking

[Acerunner]

I have been perusing the threads and trying to figure out whether I should go with gut or EB. On the one hand you have a bleed effect and another melee move that would come in handy since I will be in range for SS anyway. On the other hand I have a move that generates another bar of energy while not consuming any. EB also does elemental damage so it gets +damage from talents. I just wanted to hear from tanks that are much more seasoned than I am (first tanking toon)

[Kryptorchid]

I have been having better success (read: more fun) using a 30/11 build. Gut is great for tab-targeting and keeping agro on things. It is cheap and has a long DoT effect.

[Acerunner]

That's what I like to hear Thanks:)

[MartyMacGraves]

This is what I am currently running:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G0GrdorogzZMsbZb.1

 

I assume the 30/11 spec is this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G0GrdorogZMsr0o.1

 

And I assume the 31/10 spec is this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G0GrdorogzZMsr.1

 

I can't see the point of the 31/10 spec at all. I would like to understand the benefit of that. Obviously, the 30/11 spec is to get Gut. The sacrifice is Energy Blast, which is a fairly significant damage-dealer and (most importantly) it generates an energy cell. Is that sacrfice worth the extra damage of Gut?

[Acerunner]

The idea behind gut I suppose is that since you are supposed to be in melee range while tanking it gives you an attack that places a dot on a target that helps you hold aggro. Not sure if that is the reason but it's the only reason I can think of. How does your current build work for you as far as tanking and holding mobs go?

[Zekoisop]

I'm 'following' Taugrim's build. I quote following because I was already using the build before he posted it or came up with it but all credit to him for posting such a good build.

 

25/14/2

 

This build gives you max all-type damage mitigation running Ion Cell and you don't suffer the pvp penalties or downfall of speccing too much into shield or absorbtion. You also get good damage as well for a tanking spec.

 

I am using the eliminator's pvp set because of said flaws with shield/absorbtion.

 

Go with gut. It's not very powerful but its long DOT is good for preventing ppl from capping nodes.

 

No problems with it in PVE either.

[Acerunner]

Can you post a link to the build?

[MartyMacGraves]

The idea behind gut I suppose is that since you are supposed to be in melee range while tanking it gives you an attack that places a dot on a target that helps you hold aggro. Not sure if that is the reason but it's the only reason I can think of. How does your current build work for you as far as tanking and holding mobs go?

 

I hold aggro fairly well, but honestly I am just now starting to tank Operations. Hard mode flashpoints have not been a problem for me.

 

FYI, with the skill "Ion Overload," all Stockstrikes include a DOT. So, I am still not seeing the justification for giving up Energy Blast. If you take a hard look at the Shield Spec tree, you will see several abilities that enhance Stockstrike, such as Static Shield and Static Surge. I also incorporate Heavy Stock from the Assault tree for an extra 8% damage from Strockstrike. Clearly, the Devs intend that the Shield Spec Vanguard will rely heavily on Stockstrike, and use it every time it is up. Odd for a class that was billed as a "ranged tank." I am considering respeccing out of Heavy Stock to Soldier's Endurance (+3% Endurance) for tanking, but I am concerned about holding aggro without the additional Stockstrike damage.

Edited February 3, 2012 by MartyMacGraves

[mirthEightyOne]

Can you post a link to the build?

 

Taugrim's guides/builds can be found at www.taugrim.com.

[Kinvalar]

If you're talking about taking Gut in PVE I wouldn't recommend it. It looks nice with all its pretty damage and DoT, but in the end just fitting it into your rotation instead of EB means you're going to have a decreased available ammo overtime with an increased ammo need. The extra damage doesn't outweigh the downsides of the disparity.

 

The tooltip for EB on my character lists 742-797(avg: 769, rounded down) for EB, and 588-619 + 728 over 15. EB and the DoT portion of Gut ignore armor, but the initial hit doesn't. Let's assume the target has at least 20% mitigation, that makes the initial hit of Gut 470-495(avg: 482, rounded down).

 

EB x4 (1minute of combat) = 3076 avg damage and +4 ammo.

 

Gut x4 (1minute combat) = 1928(initial hit, avg) + 2912(DoT) [4840 damage] and -8 ammo.

 

Difference of 1764 damage.

 

You only regenerate 36 ammo per minute staying in the highest regen bracket, and it's not a good idea to throw 22% of that ammo on a skill that is only 1764 damage more than a skill that gives you 4 free ammo to use on a Stockstrike/Pulse Cannon/Other skill that you couldn't fire before due to ammo starving.

 

This thread has a sim setup to test out builds for PvE tanking: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=237704 The 5th page actually references a Gut/Retractable Blade build and the sim clearly shows that in a PvE tanking situation you're better off having EB.

 

-

 

To change gears a moment, if you're planning on PvPing also (and don't want to keep respeccing) the damage difference isn't gonna kill ya to take Gut for PvE so you can have it in PvP since it is quite useful there. PvE tanking though I'd stay away from Gut.

[Acerunner]

Thanks kin. This is really what I was looking for.

[MartyMacGraves]

If you're talking about taking Gut in PVE I wouldn't recommend it. It looks nice with all its pretty damage and DoT, but in the end just fitting it into your rotation instead of EB means you're going to have a decreased available ammo overtime with an increased ammo need. The extra damage doesn't outweigh the downsides of the disparity.

 

The tooltip for EB on my character lists 742-797(avg: 769, rounded down) for EB, and 588-619 + 728 over 15. EB and the DoT portion of Gut ignore armor, but the initial hit doesn't. Let's assume the target has at least 20% mitigation, that makes the initial hit of Gut 470-495(avg: 482, rounded down).

 

EB x4 (1minute of combat) = 3076 avg damage and +4 ammo.

 

Gut x4 (1minute combat) = 1928(initial hit, avg) + 2912(DoT) [4840 damage] and -8 ammo.

 

Difference of 1764 damage.

 

You only regenerate 36 ammo per minute staying in the highest regen bracket, and it's not a good idea to throw 22% of that ammo on a skill that is only 1764 damage more than a skill that gives you 4 free ammo to use on a Stockstrike/Pulse Cannon/Other skill that you couldn't fire before due to ammo starving.

 

This thread has a sim setup to test out builds for PvE tanking: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=237704 The 5th page actually references a Gut/Retractable Blade build and the sim clearly shows that in a PvE tanking situation you're better off having EB.

 

-

 

To change gears a moment, if you're planning on PvPing also (and don't want to keep respeccing) the damage difference isn't gonna kill ya to take Gut for PvE so you can have it in PvP since it is quite useful there. PvE tanking though I'd stay away from Gut.

 

This is a very good discussion. As my intuition was telling me (see my above posts), EB is a subtle but very powerful tanking ability. I am sticking with it until someone can prove that Gut is superior (for PVE tanking).

[Daekarus]

Dammit. That was a logical and well-reasoned response that means I should consider respeccing....

 

I just have one question:What usually the thing preventing me from using the skills I want is not ammo, but cooldown time. If ammo isn't a problem... is it worth giving up Gut?

[Kinvalar]

Dammit. That was a logical and well-reasoned response that means I should consider respeccing....

 

I just have one question:What usually the thing preventing me from using the skills I want is not ammo, but cooldown time. If ammo isn't a problem... is it worth giving up Gut?

 

Well, the problem is that you don't really want to be hitting Gut on the same target more than once every 15 seconds because of the DoT. If you clip the duration of the DoT you're just reducing your dps. Now you might look at it and consider you get the initial hit again, but for 2 ammo you could have hit an Ion Pulse and done more damage than the initial strike of Gut. The good damage from Gut is from keeping as much uptime as you can on the DoT.

 

I find that after using both that I don't have ammo issues by any means with Gut, but with EB I have an abundance of ammo. You just need to make sure you don't let your ammo cap out midfight, because that's just lost dps from losing regen ticks.

[Daekarus]

Good point! I generally use Gut as one of my opening moves and only use it at 15s intervals, as you said. Still, what you said got me thinking... if I had a few extra ammo then I could replace a few of my filler hammershots with Ion Pulses, which would increase my dps I think. I can't see ever capping out ammo, because we have a few spammable instants.

 

Well, the problem is that you don't really want to be hitting Gut on the same target more than once every 15 seconds because of the DoT. If you clip the duration of the DoT you're just reducing your dps. Now you might look at it and consider you get the initial hit again, but for 2 ammo you could have hit an Ion Pulse and done more damage than the initial strike of Gut. The good damage from Gut is from keeping as much uptime as you can on the DoT.

 

I find that after using both that I don't have ammo issues by any means with Gut, but with EB I have an abundance of ammo. You just need to make sure you don't let your ammo cap out midfight, because that's just lost dps from losing regen ticks.

[Kinvalar]

Good point! I generally use Gut as one of my opening moves and only use it at 15s intervals, as you said. Still, what you said got me thinking... if I had a few extra ammo then I could replace a few of my filler hammershots with Ion Pulses, which would increase my dps I think. I can't see ever capping out ammo, because we have a few spammable instants.

 

The ammo capping was in regards to EB. EB gives you 1 ammo, but in 1.5seconds GCD you always get at least 1 tick, and a 2nd tick just after you start another skill, so..

 

Say you're at 10.x ammo but can only see that you're at 10. Stockstrike, HIB, Pulse Cannon, Sticky Nade and such are all on CD, but EB isn't. If you hit EB then you get the instant 1 ammo for 11.x. Your next tick could potentially waste part of it by regening beyond the 12 ammo. On the other hand if you are at 9.x you can safely EB and not waste any of it. It's a little odd to think about in terms of ammo decimals, an easier idea is using the heat comparison.

 

Use their ender(Heat Blast) at 14 heat and you dissipate 8 heat, bringing you to 6 heat. Your next regen tick takes off 5, bringing you to 1. If you fire a skill just then you're fine. If you use Heat Blast at 10 heat tho, bringing you to 2 heat, you waste 3 heat dissipation on your next tick. It doesn't seem like much, but if you keep doing this in the long run you're just losing attacks.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Kinvalar

[wallywaffles]

Right now I have gut, but as I'm getting less into PvP and more into Ops I might switch.

 

Gut is awesome for PvP. You're right about to die and spam dots on all the attackers to hold the objective till reinforcements arrive. On the other hand I almost never use it in PvE; pulse cannon or mortar volley are sufficient for grabbing everyone's aggro, not to mention AoE taunt. Sure gut still has good DPS, but I'd rather take the extra ammo as it's not hard to use up any extra.

 

Honestly I'd probably have energy blast now if I wasn't too lazy to respec

Edited February 7, 2012 by wallywaffles

[Daekarus]

So... where IS the respec guru? I've never felt the desire to rearrange my points until now so I have no idea. Cool that the first one's free and the next few cost next to nothing. :-)

[Acerunner]

Thanks for the fantastic discussion guys. This is more attention than I thought this thread would get. Keep the magic going:)

[Mayol]

EB x4 (1minute of combat) = 3076 avg damage and +4 ammo.

 

Gut x4 (1minute combat) = 1928(initial hit, avg) + 2912(DoT) [4840 damage] and -8 ammo.

 

Difference of 1764 damage.

 

You only regenerate 36 ammo per minute staying in the highest regen bracket, and it's not a good idea to throw 22% of that ammo on a skill that is only 1764 damage more than a skill that gives you 4 free ammo to use on a Stockstrike/Pulse Cannon/Other skill that you couldn't fire before due to ammo starving.

 

Not to mention giving up either 4% shields or 8% SS damage to spec up to gut. 4% shield might be ok if you're healers aren't struggling at all, but the 8% SS damage is essential with the synergy from the +crit and +surge talents in SS.

[Mayol]

I am considering respeccing out of Heavy Stock to Soldier's Endurance (+3% Endurance) for tanking, but I am concerned about holding aggro without the additional Stockstrike damage.

 

I would highly recommend abandoning that thought process for good. 3 skill points for around 700hp if you're dressed in purples... absolutely shocking way to spend points. If it was 3% per skill point it might be worth a look.

[skidrows]

Was thinking something like this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GoGrbkr0gzZrkbZb.1

I jump over Storm then but not sure if that is a good skill to have or not.

[Varena]

I find storm to be an invaluable tool in PvE, letting you get back in the action very quickly after a knockback (such as the first boss in Eternity Vault), or allowing you to intercept a bunch of adds. For PvP I've found it to be useful for the 3 second root that it gives to stop someone escaping (when harpoon is on CD) and also as a quick way to get up to people who are pewpewing from a platform.

[MartyMacGraves]

I would highly recommend abandoning that thought process for good. 3 skill points for around 700hp if you're dressed in purples... absolutely shocking way to spend points. If it was 3% per skill point it might be worth a look.

 

Thanks for the advice. I will hold off on respeccing.