Theorycrafting: Secondary Attribute to Damage Equivalance

[tehforcebwithu]

*Updated Feb 04 4:00AM*

 

The goal of this is to generate a set of number that relate the Secondary DPS attributes (Power, Surge, Crit Rating, Accuracy) to Damage Output. There are 3 intermediate calculations:

 

Weighted Ability Damage (or Rotation Damage)

Attribute to Modifier Bonus

Modifier Bonus to Weighted Ability Damage

 

 

This is not a full blown damage prediction tool and is therefor much simpler and easier to use for its intended purpose, which is to make choices between one secondary stat and another.

 

 

I completely re-did my first iteration and made the following updates:

 

- Realistic Damage Formulas for Individuals Abilities (only 2 abilities put in so far, but easy to add more)

- Damage is modeled as a weighted average of results for various abilities and variations of abilities with/without certain Buffs

- Accuracy is now separated into Pre-Soft Cap and Post-Soft Cap with individual weights for each. The softcap will be different in each situation of some additional intelligence needs to be applied to these numbers

 

 

Notes:

1 Attribute to Modifier Ratios are static approximates for my char and still need to be replaced with formulas

2 Ability Damage formula should be accurate but needs looking over, don’t need to be 100% accurate just capture all of the dependencies

3 The listed abilities are just examples and are in no way intended to be a complete list for any rotation

4 For StdHealth Lookup table which is not set up, currently using lvl 50 values in calculation regardless of value in 'Ability Lvl'

5 Weighting does not have to sum to 1

6 The Soft Cap for Accuracy situational, but atleast +5%, will add more detail later

 

Download:

Attribute to Damage Ratios for Jedi Sentinel v0.7.xls

 

Please let me know any thoughts

Edited February 4, 2012 by tehforcebwithu

[tehforcebwithu]

Reserved

[andrew_b_gross]

You mention that you don't take into account situations like guaranteed crits from Bladestorms. This is way too big a part of playing a Sentinel to just hand-wave away and expect to get useful numbers.

 

In Watchman spec at level 50, I'm able to pop Zen with incredible regularity. Using Valorous call, I start the fight with it up; then, with all of the various talents that add centering, I'm using it at least once every 30 seconds, maybe even closer to once every 20 seconds (I haven't timed it).

 

Ignoring this means your'e going to way overvalue Crit and way undervalue Surge. If it was just a once/twice fight or really unpredictable thing, I could see ignoring it; but in a 5 minute fight, you're talking about something that's going to happent 10-15 times.

Edited February 2, 2012 by andrew_b_gross

[EasymodeX]

You're re-inventing the wheel a bit, but good observation on the value of power. Even if you re-tune the model a bit more (1. accuracy is modeled poorly based on what it does and does not apply to; 2. autocrits as mentioned; 3. talented bonus crit% and crit damage effects; 4. actual damage coefficiencts for different abilities), power is still clearly pretty strong.

[tehforcebwithu]

You mention that you don't take into account situations like guaranteed crits from Bladestorms. This is way too big a part of playing a Sentinel to just hand-wave away and expect to get useful numbers.

 

In Watchman spec at level 50, I'm able to pop Zen with incredible regularity. Using Valorous call, I start the fight with it up; then, with all of the various talents that add centering, I'm using it at least once every 30 seconds, maybe even closer to once every 20 seconds (I haven't timed it).

 

Ignoring this means your'e going to way overvalue Crit and way undervalue Surge. If it was just a once/twice fight or really unpredictable thing, I could see ignoring it; but in a 5 minute fight, you're talking about something that's going to happent 10-15 times.

 

Agreed. Even with crit% out surge still does not beat power. If accuracy is worthless for abilities ( see below) then I would say Surge easily moves up to 2nd place though.

 

You're re-inventing the wheel a bit, but good observation on the value of power. Even if you re-tune the model a bit more (1. accuracy is modeled poorly based on what it does and does not apply to; 2. autocrits as mentioned; 3. talented bonus crit% and crit damage effects; 4. actual damage coefficiencts for different abilities), power is still clearly pretty strong.

 

Do you know of someone else putting out these values? I would be interested into looking into that.

 

1. If its true that Abilities have %100 percent hit, I guess that makes accuracy pretty worthless, is this what you think to be the case? I have no clue how accuracy works other than the tooltip.

 

2. Autocrits- if accuracy is out this will be important in the decision of crit% vs surge as the 2nd choice

 

3. Note sure to what you refer. Do you mean abilities that give you one makes it less and the other more valuable? Sure. Is this significant? Possibly...

 

4. Yea, who knows how they work. They obviously scale damage, but do they scale bonus damage? This is key. I'd assume they keep crit change unless otherwise mentioned, and hope that crit multipler is applied to the total pre-crit damage. Any thoughts on this?

Edited February 2, 2012 by tehforcebwithu

[EasymodeX]

Do you know of someone else putting out these values? I would be interested into looking into that.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Softcaps-discussion?pid=11344#pid11344

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-DPS-Craft-Warriors-Knights

 

You can also look for coefficients on torhead.com. Go to the ability and click the tab on the bottom for "detailed view" or something. It also shows some of the interesting flags that are set for each ability.

 

 

1. If its true that Abilities have %100 percent hit, I guess that makes accuracy pretty worthless, is this what you think to be the case? I have no clue how accuracy works other than the tooltip.

 

Normal attacks = Assault.

 

Special attacks (base 100% acc) = everything else. Literally.

 

The only value of ACC is:

 

1. Full damage against targets with >0% defense (most classes have 5% base defense, Inq/Consulars have 10% for who knows what reason).

 

2. Offhand hits lulz.

 

I don't know what % Defense PvE raid bosses have.

 

 

3. Note sure to what you refer. Do you mean abilities that give you one makes it less and the other more valuable? Sure. Is this significant? Possibly...

 

Yes. For Carnage, the majority of damage output gets +30% crit damage (like 80% of the damage?). Rage tree is around 60/40 for damage that is affected by +30% crit damage.

 

Annihilation is currently 0/100 where none of the damage output has +30% crit damage, but that will change to 40/60 ish.

 

Of course, 15% of Carn damage is autocrit, and 20% of Rage's?

 

 

4. Yea, who knows how they work. They obviously scale damage, but do they scale bonus damage?

 

Yes.

 

I'd assume they keep crit change unless otherwise mentioned, and hope that crit multipler is applied to the total pre-crit damage. Any thoughts on this?

 

wat u say.

 

(base + bonus*coeff) * (1 + crit% * critX) * (armor) = damage.

[Culhaven]

I will likely get flamed for posting something that is more based more on "gut feeling" than data, but here goes:

 

I feel Accuracy is highly underrated with opinions being based on how it works in other games.

 

Why I feel that way (and my under-nourished data)?

 

On my Smuggler I created a reusable Accuracy adrenal (had lots of mats) and ran a small test.

 

I attacked two different types of mobs at least 10 times with each ability (I know, small data set) with and without the adrenal (which I think was 120 acc).

 

With every ability, even the tech based ones which start with 100% hit chance, the average damage when up. In the case of the Thermal Grenade it was almost 15% more damage.

 

At any rate, take it or dismiss it as you will, but I feel Accuracy is more valuable than most are giving credit.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Culhaven

[Ravrohan]

Based on the above, is there any way to know if ACC boosts the chance of hitting the top end of the damage range?

[tehforcebwithu]

Here are the accuracy formula's from one of the link above:

 

Special/Force/Tech Attack Accuracy % = 100 + 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( AccuracyRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.55 ) )

Accuracy over 100% reduces the Defense of the targe

 

Special/Force/Tech Off-Hand Accuracy % = 67 + 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( AccuracyRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.55 ) )

Off-hand attacks are rolled separately to main hand attacks

 

 

I am assuming

 

30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( AccuracyRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.55 ) )

 

equals to total accuracy bonus, so basically you get a defense reduction equivalent to bonus accuracy for special abilitie (which are essentiall all abilities), so the actual effect on damage increase depends on defense mechanics, and defense decrease mechanics (static value or %?).

 

There is also talk of a 8% hit cap in another thread which doesn't appear to jive with the above info.

 

After further investigation I am going to improve my model.

 

Also of note, how much control over secondary attributes do you get endgame? Can you eventually get the exact flavor of lvl 58 mods you want in every slot somehow?

Edited February 3, 2012 by tehforcebwithu

[EasymodeX]

There is also talk of a 8% hit cap in another thread which doesn't appear to jive with the above info.

 

1. The accuracy formula describes the +% ACC you get based on ACC Rating. Random player opponents can have up to 100% Defense (IA/Smugg dodge buff).

 

2. The 8% "cap" refers to PvE raid bosses having an observed-ish 8% defense. So if you get +8% ACC, then you don't need anymore to hit with mainhand special attacks. It's a softcap because you could still improve your offhand ACC and Assault ACC ... but no one cares.

 

 

Also of note, how much control over secondary attributes do you get endgame? Can you eventually get the exact flavor of lvl 58 mods you want in every slot somehow?

 

It's hit or miss. Between torhead and stuff I've seen in game, you can acquire:

 

1. +ACC/Power

2. +Surge/Power

3. +Crit/Surge

 

In enhancements, which seem to be the most "flexible" slot.

 

ACC and Surge softcap somewhat quickly -- 350 Surge rating is a good mark for "don't tryhard to exceed". For ACC, well, it depends. I recommend 5% minimum for PvP, with 10% being a good softcap mark (100% ACC against Inq/Cons with no other modifiers, and 100% ACC against general players with a 5% miss debuff).

 

But, after you get Surge to 350 and ACC to 10%, there are no Power/Crit enhancements. QQ.

[andrew_b_gross]

Also of note, how much control over secondary attributes do you get endgame? Can you eventually get the exact flavor of lvl 58 mods you want in every slot somehow?

 

Exactly the opposite. The mods/enhancements that come with PvE raid gear are much higher level and give much bigger bonuses than anything you can craft or buy, so you're stuck using whatever comes in the item. Up until you start getting PvE raid gear, you do have almost total freedom to shuffle stats by using orange armor and putting in the armor/mod/enh of your choice.

[tehforcebwithu]

Ok, Easymode, do you agree with the following statement:

 

 

1% accuracy is equivalent to 1% Damage in a specific (non-basic) attack where

 

(Accuracy Bonus < Opponents Defense)

 

and a 1% increase in accuracy over the defense value is nearly worthless (only helps offhand).

Edited February 3, 2012 by tehforcebwithu

[tehforcebwithu]

Exactly the opposite. The mods/enhancements that come with PvE raid gear are much higher level and give much bigger bonuses than anything you can craft or buy, so you're stuck using whatever comes in the item. Up until you start getting PvE raid gear, you do have almost total freedom to shuffle stats by using orange armor and putting in the armor/mod/enh of your choice.

 

At least for PVP, the mods/enhancements are removable/interchangeable, so unless they all have the exact same stats, you should EVENTUALLY be able to buy extra pieces with extra commendations and swap them as you wish. Is this not the case?

 

From what I gather, you wind up with a lot of extra champion commendations when going for battle master, and you can get redundant pieces in the process as well.