Technical community discussion : Nerfing Tracer Missle

[Drachii]

EDIT Doublepost Dx Edited February 2, 2012 by Drachii

[Barrechor]

Sundering strike is also an instant, and thus is not a victim of interrupts, line of sight or being rooted in place.

 

And it has 4m range and a longer cooldown.... theres pros and cons to each.

 

TM needs tweaking and thats the top and bottom of it. I understand every BH/Trooper and his dog coming on here to say "Its fine as it is" because none of us want our classes nerfed. The cold harsh reality is however, that Tracer Missile is putting out too much damage for a skill of that type.

[Drachii]

The cold harsh reality is however, that Tracer Missile is putting out too much damage for a skill of that type.

 

This is what I'm frankly not convinced of. There's a lot of 'omg so much damage in WZs!' and anecdotal 'TM HIT ME FOR LOLWTFROFLDAMAGE', but what I would really like to see is two people getting together in standardised gear and properly testing the damage of TM/GravRound via repeated application.

[Barrechor]

3 k Hits with Tracer Missle? the Roflcopter has just started! I'm full t2 equiped and when i get 2,5 or 2,6 thats like once out of 100 Times and I'm like "OMG AWESOME"

 

If youve never had a 3k+ hit with TM youre either cryotech or just bad. Plus the PvE armor set bonus gives you a 15% greater chance to crit with TM, meaning you can realistically have a 40-45% crit chance on TM even without relics or adrenals.

[Machazareel]

And it has 4m range and a longer cooldown.... theres pros and cons to each.

 

TM needs tweaking and thats the top and bottom of it. I understand every BH/Trooper and his dog coming on here to say "Its fine as it is" because none of us want our classes nerfed. The cold harsh reality is however, that Tracer Missile is putting out too much damage for a skill of that type.

 

I amended my post to also point at that it's free and actually grants you focus to fuel your other skills. The only thing comparable between the two is that they both reduce armor, but the mechanics surrounding both are wildly different.

 

TM may be in need of some tweak, but your suggestions were not the product of critical thinking or examination of the entire tree and how the skill works in the bigger picture. It was a kneejerk reaction that you attempted to fortify by comparing it to a skill that quite frankly, cannot be compared to it.

 

Edit: And again, this isn't a matter of me not wanting my spec nerfed. I don't play Arsenal anymore because Pyrotech is a lot better for PvP. This is me arguing against poorly conceived notions that are attempting to make changes to a spec without even thinking about how the change will affect anything else.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Machazareel

[Barrechor]

I amended my post to also point at that it's free and actually grants you focus to fuel your other skills. The only thing comparable between the two is that they both reduce armor, but the mechanics surrounding both are wildly different.

 

TM may be in need of some tweak, but your suggestions were not the product of critical thinking or examination of the entire tree and how the skill works in the bigger picture. It was a kneejerk reaction that you attempted to fortify by comparing it to a skill that quite frankly, cannot be compared to it.

 

Thats because there isnt really any other skill that buffs so many others. You can probably explain better than I can, exactly which skills and abilities TM actually buffs.

 

I'm aware it grants armor reduction, it grants increased defence and a myriad of other buffs etc. For a skill that does all that, the actual damage of the said skill is too high. The damage output of TM should be closer to that of your basic 'Free skill' and 1.2k with 1.8-2k crits would be much more sensible damage output, especially considering how high you can actually get your crit chance with it.

 

I'll reiterate, its not massivley OP or anything but it does need toning down a touch.

 

EDIT: And btw, a slight (Yes Slight, being roughly 1.8k reduction over 3 shots) would not effect your rotation at all as the buffs would remain the same.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Barrechor

[Lacressian]

Server: The Ravager

Class: 50 Shadow & 47 Commando

PvP Level: 58 & 43

 

Tbh the big part of the annoyance and the whining in these forums about TM spam is due to the animation and sound effects and a bunch of bad players.

 

Now, on the constructive part.

 

TM/GR spam is a fundamental mistake on BW part. Get five stacks of this, get 5 stacks on that, pray for some proc, use other skills that are on big CDs. There are 4 things tied to GR/TM usage and this has to be changed. How?

 

Well, you have to change em in a way that do not destroy the spec and its core mechanics.

 

The 10% shield is fine with the 5x requirement

Charged Barrel/Tracer Lock does not need to be with x5 requirement

 

What I would do if I were the developer:

 

1. Sticky bomb leaves target vulnerable to armor debuf upon exploding, granting 2 stacks of Gravity Vortex/Heat Signatures

2. Every ability of the Commando/Merc apply 1 stack GV/HS and build 2% shield. Talented TM/GR apply 2 GV/Heat

3. Charged Barrel/Tracer Lock talent- High Impact Bolt/Rail Shot now does 6% more damage for each GV/HS on the target AND consumes the stack.

4. HIB/RS has 50% chance to further break target's armor, making next Full Auto/Unload a guarantied critical hit.

 

Adjust timers and damage accordingly.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Lacressian

[Machazareel]

Thats because there isnt really any other skill that buffs so many others. You can probably explain better than I can, exactly which skills and abilities TM actually buffs.

 

I'm aware it grants armor reduction, it grants increased defence and a myriad of other buffs etc. For a skill that does all that, the actual damage of the said skill is too high. The damage output of TM should be closer to that of your basic 'Free skill' and 1.2k with 1.8-2k crits would be much more sensible damage output, especially considering how high you can actually get your crit chance with it.

 

I'll reiterate, its not massivley OP or anything but it does need toning down a touch.

 

That's the thing, though. Against equally geared opponents that is about how much it does hit for unless I'm using my trinket+adrenal. It hits a bit harder than that on lower armored opponents, and while I can reach 3k+ crits with buffs, those aren't exactly up often or for very long. The usual damage is 1.2-1.4 hits with crits ranging anywhere from 1.8-2.5kish, depending on the base armor of the target and how many stacks of armor reduction they're already sitting on, along with their level of expertise. I'll generally hit somewhat hard against Sorc/Sage players, but they're wearing cloth, so that's no surprise.

 

The common misconception is that Tracer hits like a truck *all* the time, when in reality it hits for moderate amounts most of the time, with high damage while stacking any buffs you can. Buff stacking inflating damage numbers is something every class gets to enjoy, though. Many players eat a Heatseeker and think it's the Tracer because since HSM is insant, it will be travelling alongside the last Tracer that was launched and hit at the same time.

 

Edit: Granted, I could increase these numbers even further by raiding and taking out the superior crit/surge enhancements and putting them into my PvP gear, but at that point you're really gaming the system, and I find that's more a flaw of the gear system than any individual ability.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Machazareel

[ugig]

If youve never had a 3k+ hit with TM youre either cryotech or just bad. Plus the PvE armor set bonus gives you a 15% greater chance to crit with TM, meaning you can realistically have a 40-45% crit chance on TM even without relics or adrenals.

 

Just in self buffs and without any set bonuses I have 34% crit and 81% surge, the highest I have seen TM crit for in a PvP match was 2800 and that was with full buffs and the red dmg buff.

 

The numbers I see from TM are all over the place, I have literally had hits from 500 to 2500 on the same target in the space of building up five stacks of my buffs/debuffs, depending on what type of target it is I see averages of 1k to 2k (1k tankish 2k squishies)

 

I did once have a guy swear i hit him for 3500 with TM but what he didnt realize was I time it out once I have enough stacks of buff/debuff so that I end up with a TM landing almost at the same time as a HSM hits and Rail Shot for full burst effect, these three hits can take a large chunk of life all at once, but remember it took time to build up to this.

[ugig]

In another long long thread about Tracer Missile spam, someone brought to my attention of "how we can do all that dmg with one button and have massive heals as well" this got me thinking, in the Arsenal spec community when we hear ppl complaining about the tracer spammers we tell them how any one just hitting tracer is gimping themselves and doing less dps than a good player. However one popular build for mercs is the hybrid asenal/bodyguard spec in which they spec high enough to get tracer but also high enough in bodyguard to have decent heals. These would be your "tracer spammers" as TM would be the most effective dmg ability they have and without all the utility buffs attached they would have no reason to cast anything else unless they had to heal.

 

So maybe the answer is as simple as moving tracer further up the arsenal tree to ensure that those speccing to get it will have the abilities to use it properly as a set-up skill instead of it being their whole rotation.

[il-jumper]

Tracer Missle/Grav Round:

 

* Cost 16 energy only.

* Does Tech damage

* Reduces Target Armor

* Does High Damage

* Gives Energy back on crit

 

 

Simple Fix, change it to compare to similar skills from other classes, that is

 

* Increase Heat cost to 20

* Change to physical damage

* Does not reduce armor, seperate skill should reduce armor

* Decrease damage to 1k

* Does not give energy back

 

 

 

Another fix would buff all other classes main spam skill to same level of Tracer/Grav round.

[Machazareel]

Tracer Missle/Grav Round:

 

* Cost 16 energy only.

* Does Tech damage

* Reduces Target Armor

* Does High Damage

* Gives Energy back on crit

 

 

Simple Fix, change it to compare to similar skills from other classes, that is

 

* Increase Heat cost to 20

* Change to physical damage

* Does not reduce armor, seperate skill should reduce armor

* Decrease damage to 1k

* Does not give energy back

 

 

 

Another fix would buff all other classes main spam skill to same level of Tracer/Grav round.

 

It costs 25, but can be talented to cost less.

It reduces heat on a crit via talenting

Lowering of armor is its one inherent additional effect along with the effects that are triggerd by the presence of the debuff.

It deals kinetic damage, which is mitigated by armor, though it does bypass shields, like every other yellow attack.'

And I notice since the last time you posted the exact same thing you've also added a damage nerf!

 

Your suggestions constitute the change of multiple talents in the tree, and they indicate that you, like so many others, have no idea what you're talking about.

[il-jumper]

It costs 25, but can be talented to cost less.

It reduces heat on a crit via talenting

Lowering of armor is its one inherent additional effect along with the effects that are triggerd by the presence of the debuff.

It deals kinetic damage, which is mitigated by armor, though it does bypass shields, like every other yellow attack.'

And I notice since the last time you posted the exact same thing you've also added a damage nerf!

 

Your suggestions constitute the change of multiple talents in the tree, and they indicate that you, like so many others, have no idea what you're talking about.

 

 

Tell me some other skill no matter what talents can do that. Please do.

 

 

Kinetic damage cannot be deflected, that is broken too.

[PhilCanuck]

Just in self buffs and without any set bonuses I have 34% crit and 81% surge, the highest I have seen TM crit for in a PvP match was 2800 and that was with full buffs and the red dmg buff.

 

The numbers I see from TM are all over the place, I have literally had hits from 500 to 2500 on the same target in the space of building up five stacks of my buffs/debuffs, depending on what type of target it is I see averages of 1k to 2k (1k tankish 2k squishies)

 

I did once have a guy swear i hit him for 3500 with TM but what he didnt realize was I time it out once I have enough stacks of buff/debuff so that I end up with a TM landing almost at the same time as a HSM hits and Rail Shot for full burst effect, these three hits can take a large chunk of life all at once, but remember it took time to build up to this.

Exactly. Players just see a smoke trail and automatically think the TM+HS combo that just hit them was just a TM. Then it's OMGNERF.

[Barrechor]

In another long long thread about Tracer Missile spam, someone brought to my attention of "how we can do all that dmg with one button and have massive heals as well" this got me thinking, in the Arsenal spec community when we hear ppl complaining about the tracer spammers we tell them how any one just hitting tracer is gimping themselves and doing less dps than a good player. However one popular build for mercs is the hybrid asenal/bodyguard spec in which they spec high enough to get tracer but also high enough in bodyguard to have decent heals. These would be your "tracer spammers" as TM would be the most effective dmg ability they have and without all the utility buffs attached they would have no reason to cast anything else unless they had to heal.

 

So maybe the answer is as simple as moving tracer further up the arsenal tree to ensure that those speccing to get it will have the abilities to use it properly as a set-up skill instead of it being their whole rotation.

 

That could be a solution. I'll make myself clear in that I havent come into this thread saying "Nerf everything about TM". I would be happy to find a reasonable solution that could curb the TM spamming trend.

 

A "Slight" damage reduction without touching the buffs etc would be fine, but this is another approach which could work.

 

Tracer missile needs a tweak and theres no doubt in my mind about that, I dont want to see the class made impotent as a result however.

[Machazareel]

Tell me some other skill no matter what talents can do that. Please do.

 

 

Kinetic damage cannot be deflected, that is broken too.

 

Yellow damage, regardless of it being Tech or Force can't be deflected. That's not broken, it's how the game works. Lightsabers deflecting blaster bolts is one thing, but deflecting missiles that explode on impact? Yeah. The only change I'd advocate there is that shields should work on all damage types, not just white damage. I think it's silly that a tanks primary defensive tool is negated by so many classes.

 

The point you're missing is that TM requires the use of so many talent points to achieve its creamy goodness. And even then, the damage is not as high as people like to claim. Just like all those people who claim Force Lightning does MASSIVE damage, when it really doesn't. It's annoying and spammable, but it doesn't really hit that hard.

[ugig]

Tracer Missle/Grav Round:

 

* Cost 16 energy only.

* Does Tech damage

* Reduces Target Armor

* Does High Damage

* Gives Energy back on crit

 

 

Simple Fix, change it to compare to similar skills from other classes, that is

 

* Increase Heat cost to 20

* Change to physical damage

* Does not reduce armor, seperate skill should reduce armor

* Decrease damage to 1k

* Does not give energy back

 

 

 

Another fix would buff all other classes main spam skill to same level of Tracer/Grav round.

* Its heat cost is 25 base, only brought to 16 through spending of skill points

* It does Kinetic damage which is mitigated by armor

* Stackable armor reduction debuff is one of its core mechanics

* High damage is very subjective, I have seen hits of 500 from it

* Reduces half of its heat cost on crit when you spend the skill points for it to do so

 

You want to bring it in line with what skills exactly? you name the ability you think it should be in line with, cause I would be willing to bet most of the abilities that you name as spammable are going to also be instant, or provide some other benefit that TM does not.

 

As I posted previously, lets see some numbers showing TM hits are that much harder than hits from other pure damage specs, I have allready listed my number range is 500-2800 with the average hits being 1500-2000

[Buddhalux]

It costs 25, but can be talented to cost less.

It reduces heat on a crit via talenting

Lowering of armor is its one inherent additional effect along with the effects that are triggerd by the presence of the debuff.

It deals kinetic damage, which is mitigated by armor, though it does bypass shields, like every other yellow attack.'

And I notice since the last time you posted the exact same thing you've also added a damage nerf!

 

Your suggestions constitute the change of multiple talents in the tree, and they indicate that you, like so many others, have no idea what you're talking about.

 

It's sad that people are still focusing on the damage that TM/GR does. The ability could be tweaked but changing everything about it kills the whole skill tree and that leaves substandard medic or dot monkey while the ranged dps skill set has nothing but substandard damage due to skill tree mechanics that require TM/GR buff be being removed or changed.

[il-jumper]

* Its heat cost is 25 base, only brought to 16 through spending of skill points

* It does Kinetic damage which is mitigated by armor

* Stackable armor reduction debuff is one of its core mechanics

* High damage is very subjective, I have seen hits of 500 from it

* Reduces half of its heat cost on crit when you spend the skill points for it to do so

 

You want to bring it in line with what skills exactly? you name the ability you think it should be in line with, cause I would be willing to bet most of the abilities that you name as spammable are going to also be instant, or provide some other benefit that TM does not.

 

As I posted previously, lets see some numbers showing TM hits are that much harder than hits from other pure damage specs, I have allready listed my number range is 500-2800 with the average hits being 1500-2000

 

 

 

Snipe

[thomasdr]

I don't really see what all the fuzz is about. Pyrotech is already a better pvp tree than Arsenal. Arsenal damage is bursty but it isn't that high.

[Machazareel]

Snipe

 

You mean the baseline ability that all IAs have when they start their toons? You want a talented ability that an entire skill tree is built around to be brought in line with that?

[Drachii]

It bears pointing out (again) that you cannot remove Cell Charger/Terminal Velocity (the reduce heat/restore ammo on crit deep Gunnery/Arsenal talent). Firstly, in a rapid burst situation it's not that great a factor (it has an ICD).

 

More importantly, to remove it or severely nerf it would be a dire nerf to the PVE aspect of the tree. Assuming it procs every 4.5 seconds - it can proc every 3 seconds maximum, and when you account for cast time + the fact that you aren't guaranteed to crit + the fact that there are other abilities that need using, (notably full auto/unload) so 4.5 seconds isn't too outlandish - over the course of a 5minute 'dps check' style fight it will proc slightly under 70 times. That's worth about 70 ammo (or 80 heat, I believe) to a commando/merc, which is quite a bit when attempting to remain above the critical ammo threshhold at all times.

 

TLDR: Cell charger/Terminal Velocity are vital to the PVE aspect of these trees as well, and this must be considered before attempting to kneejerknerf them.

 

EDIT: And in PVP, one complaint appears to be 'mercs are killing me in 6 seconds!'. If such is the case, that talent will proc twice /at absolute maximum/, assuming a perfectly-timed crit. Realistically, you're looking at an extra 8 heat, which isn't going to make the difference.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Drachii

[zerobounds]

I think we've pretty much already established that it can't be kneejerknerf'd and that the damage isn't the major concern but that the involvement of TM/GR in the skill tree forces an undesirable overuse of the skill out of pure necessity. Edited February 2, 2012 by zerobounds

[ugig]

Snipe

 

according to darthhater.com Snipe is only a 1 second cast time and has a base damage of 1191-1362 Tracer Missile has a 1.5 second casting time and base damage of 1117-1213 Snipe has a cost of 20, Tracer base cost is 25. And lets not even get into that using Snipe means your in cover which is a dmg reduction and gives you the ability to be uninteruptable and unable to be knocked back by use of a CD where as with Tracer you can allways be interupted and or knocked back.

 

Both abilities have their pro's and con's, you want to bring Tracer in line with Snipe by removing the armor debuff? sure, increase its base dmg in line with Snipe as well then:D

[Drachii]

I think we've pretty much already established that it can't be kneejerknerf'd and that the damage isn't the major concern but that the involvement of TM/GR in the skill tree forces an undesirable overuse of the skill out of pure necessity.

 

 

I concur, with the addendum of 'shields should probably work on tech damage too.'