Please stop making threads regarding Sentinel balance if you are below level 50.

[Xilrasis]

Interesting. I posted this as sort-of a "set it and forget it" and assumed I would only get a few hateful responses and thats it. Apparently I was wrong.

 

Let me explain something to you all: I'm sorry. Life is not going to be all sunshine and rainbows from 1-49. Until you receive your 41st talent point, you are missing an important aspect of your character. You are missing valorous call. You can't use the better gear. Some classes simply scale better with gear than others.

 

Let me give you an example from WoW since i'm sure a large percentage of people here played it. It played out many many times over the course of the game and always with the same class (which also, ironically [or not], happens to be the very class/spec that most resembles sentinels.)

 

Which class? Fury warriors.

 

Originally, leveling as a fury warrior was somewhat miserable. Granted, they later improved it significantly with the talent revamps and by changing when certain skills become available, but thats a HUGE undertaking and was done from years of gathering data and suggestions.

 

When they hit level cap (in multiple expansions) they were "mediocre".

 

When they started acquiring decent gear they were "slightly below average".

 

With higher quality gear, they were holding their own among top contenders.

 

At ultra-high end gear levels? They absolutely blew everyone away. No contest, no questions, no ifs-ands-or-buts.

 

Unfortunately, this circumstance took a while to develop. Not only did you have to be level capped, but you also had to have at least a higher quality selection of gear. I understand that this isn't going to always be an optimal situation to everyone, but there will likely always be some class or classes who mature "late" simply due to how their mechanics work.

 

I'm not saying that this is the case with sentinel, i'm just giving you an example of why complaining so early about the class in general is an otherwise flawed concept.

 

This also holds true for several other reasons (And the one given above):

 

1) Some people don't make as much effort to upgrade their gear as others. Even something as simple as replacing a hilt in your saber while leveling can make an epic level of difference. Some people don't upgrade their companions gear. People don't select the same (or most optimal) talents for leveling. I'm sorry that random_sage_07 you passed was still wearing level 14 gear and was soloing Heroic 4 quests, but thats the nature of the game. There will always be classes that handle situations like that better due to the toolbox they're given. Did you ever see people mass complain in WoW because death knights were able to solo previous tier outdated content when (most) other classes weren't able to?

 

2) Until you have a full toolbox of abilities, you can't really make a determination as to what you have answers for and what you don't. For example, most people look at their ability list and think that after 46 (is that when you get awe?) that they receive nothing to improve survivability. They think of valorous call as a DPS cooldown. I can't tell you how many times i've popped camo - VC - transcendence and gotten away, grabbed a heal powerup, bought just enough time for another cooldown, medpak, or simply escaped long enough to jump back in later and prevent a cap in voidstar. Think outside the box (P.S., VC and Transcendence don't break stealth.)

 

3) The leveling experience for me (And MANY others) was far from difficult. I don't know if its a case of player skill and ability or if it was other factors, but clearly some people have issues and some don't. Perhaps sage would be best for you so you can whirlwind adds to give you a larger margin of error? Granted, there were some frustration inducing moments. Examples? There are some strongs and elites that hit worlds harder than any of their counterparts. Also, the sith harrowers on Tattooine. I also have a level 50 Operative and, let me tell you, even with a heal spec or a DPS spec, and a CC, there were some areas in this game that RIPPED me apart and had to be approached differently. Did I come to the forums and complain because it was too hard? No. I would have been the idiot of the century if I had even remotely tried to suggest operatives were underpowered. Every class has their shortcomings. I promise.

 

4) On the above note, the leveling experience is a very very -VERY- small percentage of what is usually involved in overall game content for MOST players. I'm with you, though. I enjoyed leveling immensely. I loved the story, the voiceovers, the content, and the experience itself. I enjoy it on my alt. However, once I hit 50, there are heroics, raids, and PVP that will consume MUCH more of my time overall than the process of leveling to 50 ever did or ever will (or so we can hope.) If the leveling experience is the primary part of your game, then reroll, play an alt, and enjoy it. Single player games aren't balanced, why should this one be when you are playing the single player aspect of it?

 

All in all, game designers don't have TIME to try to balance the sub 50. They attempt to make the leveling experience as fun and un-frustrating as possible while gradually distributing your skills to you to keep the carrot dangling. Once the game is built, their focus is on end game and bug resolutions. I'm sorry, but this is how it has been for years and years. Usually revisions to the "leveling" experience only come in minor fixes or extremely major overhauls. (Cataclysm, new talent system, etc.)

 

Help the new guys out. Don't throw your isolated experiences out there like it represents the whole class. Do everyone a favor and get to 50, get some experience with the class, get some gear, and let it play out. Let them know that there may very well be a light at the end of the tunnel. Time will tell whether there is truly a problem with the class or not. As a geared, experienced 50 Sentinel I can say on one hand there are some problems, but they are mechanical in nature and just happen to affect our class more than others. On the other hand, I think sentinels are an awesomely designed class with a few minor changes that could be made to streamline them.

 

Lend us your opinions, noble masses. Just wait until its truly formulated to do so.

[Bishidoblade]

If/when they fix the real issues with Sent, everything will be fine. They know about the scaling issue, a dev posted a reply saying they know - and its being addressed. There some underlying issues with combat also, and how it compares later on with the other tree's - great. I'm sure if there are real issues then they will get fixed.

 

What bothers me is people constantly QQing about issues that involve them & personally not being able to play the game effectively. This game is new, for the most part it was one of the best launches i have seen from any MMO. That being said - there are always issues and tuning that need to happen and continue to happen in order to balance things.

 

Stop expecting things to be easy. Even the self proclaimed "Pros" are still noobs, and are learning (at a faster rate) how to play the game effectively, what abilitys to use when to counter what - and so on. Ever think for a moment that maybe you are doing something wrong? Instead of crying about it, how about putting in the time and effort to learn to be better.

 

If your not coordinated enough to bind all of your ability's and use them effectively then that's on you. This is one of the more coordination oriented classes/specs i have played in any MMO, and I have hardcore/end-game raided competitively for over 14 years. Never in any game have I had more binds - or needed my gaming mouse/keyboard as much as I do here. I love the fact that this class pushes you to think a bit more, and faceroll a bit less.

 

At the end of the day the issues that need to be addressed WILL be. These things rarely happen over night (unless they are game-breaking) but they do happen. Honestly if i was a dev, or a board mod I would be sick and tired of hearing all the crying. Post your "issues" once and let them do their thing.

 

/rant off

[rakuenCallisto]

Interesting. I posted this as sort-of a "set it and forget it" and assumed I would only get a few hateful responses and thats it. Apparently I was wrong.

 

Let me explain something to you all: I'm sorry. Life is not going to be all sunshine and rainbows from 1-49. Until you receive your 41st talent point, you are missing an important aspect of your character. You are missing valorous call. You can't use the better gear. Some classes simply scale better with gear than others.

 

Let me give you an example from WoW since i'm sure a large percentage of people here played it. It played out many many times over the course of the game and always with the same class (which also, ironically [or not], happens to be the very class/spec that most resembles sentinels.)

 

Which class? Fury warriors.

 

Originally, leveling as a fury warrior was somewhat miserable. Granted, they later improved it significantly with the talent revamps and by changing when certain skills become available, but thats a HUGE undertaking and was done from years of gathering data and suggestions.

 

When they hit level cap (in multiple expansions) they were "mediocre".

 

When they started acquiring decent gear they were "slightly below average".

 

With higher quality gear, they were holding their own among top contenders.

 

At ultra-high end gear levels? They absolutely blew everyone away. No contest, no questions, no ifs-ands-or-buts.

 

Unfortunately, this circumstance took a while to develop. Not only did you have to be level capped, but you also had to have at least a higher quality selection of gear. I understand that this isn't going to always be an optimal situation to everyone, but there will likely always be some class or classes who mature "late" simply due to how their mechanics work.

 

I'm not saying that this is the case with sentinel, i'm just giving you an example of why complaining so early about the class in general is an otherwise flawed concept.

 

This also holds true for several other reasons (And the one given above):

 

1) Some people don't make as much effort to upgrade their gear as others. Even something as simple as replacing a hilt in your saber while leveling can make an epic level of difference. Some people don't upgrade their companions gear. People don't select the same (or most optimal) talents for leveling. I'm sorry that random_sage_07 you passed was still wearing level 14 gear and was soloing Heroic 4 quests, but thats the nature of the game. There will always be classes that handle situations like that better due to the toolbox they're given. Did you ever see people mass complain in WoW because death knights were able to solo previous tier outdated content when (most) other classes weren't able to?

 

2) Until you have a full toolbox of abilities, you can't really make a determination as to what you have answers for and what you don't. For example, most people look at their ability list and think that after 46 (is that when you get awe?) that they receive nothing to improve survivability. They think of valorous call as a DPS cooldown. I can't tell you how many times i've popped camo - VC - transcendence and gotten away, grabbed a heal powerup, bought just enough time for another cooldown, medpak, or simply escaped long enough to jump back in later and prevent a cap in voidstar. Think outside the box (P.S., VC and Transcendence don't break stealth.)

 

3) The leveling experience for me (And MANY others) was far from difficult. I don't know if its a case of player skill and ability or if it was other factors, but clearly some people have issues and some don't. Perhaps sage would be best for you so you can whirlwind adds to give you a larger margin of error? Granted, there were some frustration inducing moments. Examples? There are some strongs and elites that hit worlds harder than any of their counterparts. Also, the sith harrowers on Tattooine. I also have a level 50 Operative and, let me tell you, even with a heal spec or a DPS spec, and a CC, there were some areas in this game that RIPPED me apart and had to be approached differently. Did I come to the forums and complain because it was too hard? No. I would have been the idiot of the century if I had even remotely tried to suggest operatives were underpowered. Every class has their shortcomings. I promise.

 

4) On the above note, the leveling experience is a very very -VERY- small percentage of what is usually involved in overall game content for MOST players. I'm with you, though. I enjoyed leveling immensely. I loved the story, the voiceovers, the content, and the experience itself. I enjoy it on my alt. However, once I hit 50, there are heroics, raids, and PVP that will consume MUCH more of my time overall than the process of leveling to 50 ever did or ever will (or so we can hope.) If the leveling experience is the primary part of your game, then reroll, play an alt, and enjoy it. Single player games aren't balanced, why should this one be when you are playing the single player aspect of it?

 

All in all, game designers don't have TIME to try to balance the sub 50. They attempt to make the leveling experience as fun and un-frustrating as possible while gradually distributing your skills to you to keep the carrot dangling. Once the game is built, their focus is on end game and bug resolutions. I'm sorry, but this is how it has been for years and years. Usually revisions to the "leveling" experience only come in minor fixes or extremely major overhauls. (Cataclysm, new talent system, etc.)

 

Help the new guys out. Don't throw your isolated experiences out there like it represents the whole class. Do everyone a favor and get to 50, get some experience with the class, get some gear, and let it play out. Let them know that there may very well be a light at the end of the tunnel. Time will tell whether there is truly a problem with the class or not. As a geared, experienced 50 Sentinel I can say on one hand there are some problems, but they are mechanical in nature and just happen to affect our class more than others. On the other hand, I think sentinels are an awesomely designed class with a few minor changes that could be made to streamline them.

 

Lend us your opinions, noble masses. Just wait until its truly formulated to do so.

 

This is an excellent post and a great example as to what more posters should look like.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Thank you, and have a nice day. And this thread title applies whether you think they suck or whether you think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

 

(P.S. Our PVE leveling difficulty is more or less irrelevant, if any disparity exists whatsoever.)

 

Also -- if you're undergeared.

 

I couldn't fit that part in.

 

Sorry but no. While I am 50 and I am not undergeared, those levels below 50 should not be ignored. Ever. This game is not just about end game.

[McVade]

I think everyone has a right to talk about their experiences with a class, regardless of level. If they are having a negative experience, the forums are usually a good place to come to, asking for help.

 

Unfortunately, we do have quite a number of trolling elitists who enjoy putting people down when they are having difficulty. To me, they're 10x worse offenders than the people complaining.

 

This isn't new: Classes that are fine will have trolls come and post their weaknesses to get a rise out of people. Classes with obvious problems will have trolls come and post how awesome they are with the class. The latter is even more alluring because it's doubles for an e-peen inflate, so you tend to get the dumber, more thuggish trolls who probably suck with the class just as much as the guy they're trolling, but want people to think they're more successful for e-fame.

 

I will say, with gear it does get better. I'm almost full Champion/Centurion now and my issues with the class specifically are starting to go away. I'm starting to feel a bit of the power the elitists do. I'm now almost consistently the top melee-DPS in the warfront, beaten out only by ranged spammers mostly.

 

My real issues are more geared toward bad design of both class mechanics (I still loathe Overload Saber and Rebuke. They're lazy GCD taxes that aren't fun abilities to use), the warzones themselves (like Huttball being a slap in the face to Sentinels, the one class with neither a pull nor a knockback) and the still god-awful UI than this class actually being underperforming.

Edited February 1, 2012 by McVade

[Jaecyn]

I'm not the sort of person to complain, usually, but I feel inclined to share an experience I had that is somewhat relevant to this thread.

 

 

I, as a 25 combat spec'd sent, rolled out of Nar Shaddaa about 2k creds shy of my speeder training. Yah, I procrastinated a tad on saving it up, dropped a little bit on arch missions for the occasional new hilt or crystal, but I always tried to keep a comfortable cushion in preparation for 25.

 

I figured I'd move on to Tatooine, do a couple quests, get the last of the credits I needed and everything would be sunshine and happiness.

 

Then I met the Sand Demon, and I have lived a life of regret ever since.

 

I won't attempt to explain how many different strategies I attempted how many times, how I strongly resisted the urge to start a thread asking for help or complaining about the encounter, my damage or the frustration of waiting for CotF to cooldown ever 20 minutes, nor even attempt to estimate how many times I got him down "SO CLOSE" before RNG just rained on my jedi parade...I will only tell you, in complete honesty (and a certain degree of shame), that I spent all but 3k creds of my nest-egg on medkits, stims and gear repair, just trying to beat that accursed arthropod.

 

 

Words cannot describe the desperation of being stuck on Tatooine at level 28, 32k creds from your Speeder, shelling out 111 creds for a one stop trip on the Republic's speeder and running around in the desert like some sort of fool.

 

Is my experience a fluke? Sure.

 

Is my experience tied to the overall state of Sentinels and the Combat tree? I think it's hard to argue otherwise.

 

Can I be blamed for not having saved more sooner? Yes.

 

Would that have improved my situation? No, to the contrary. If I had acquired my speeder before the Sand Demon, it would have just meant less credits to buy the stims, medkits and gear repairs needed to finally complete the encounter.

 

Should experiences like mine be Bioware's #1 priority? Of course not, MMO's are big complex things with big complex networks of big complex problems. There's a lot of things to account for and a lot of problems that are just more important than my crappy luck.

 

Can experiences like mine cost Bioware business? I think so. I'm pretty demoralized right now. The main reason I'm sticking around is because I still have another month of game time on this card, so I figure I may as well slog it out, see if I can't get out of the hole and onto a Speeder before the month ends/I lose my sanity.

 

At any rate, just thought I should share that. Sorry if I sounded a bit whiny, I try to be good-natured about it, but it has put a major buzz-kill on a game that I was enjoying immensely, up until that happened. A challenging MMO is great, but a demoralizing one is just job you pay to do.