Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[Maccaroth]

Common view? Do you have any statistics at all to back that assertion up?

It's pointless trying to discuss with someone who quotes someone without the proper context. Answer to that question is in my previous posts.

 

Ask them, not me.

 

I can't read their minds.

You're capable of deduction. You know they value specific gear. You know they defend their way of looting. They have reasons for it. Everyone has reasons. Understanding the source of the problem is one of the ways to produce a solution.

[PoPPaDoM]

Because it was really borne in warcraft

 

No it wasn't.

 

But now we have a new dynamic with pets that are companions and can be geared and have classes. And suddenly, players are saying "whoa, I need to gear these too" so, if something drops usable by them or their companion, they need it.

 

Was your pet in the group? No? Then it doesn't get loot rolls.

 

The NBG system was kicked into people or it was instilled into them like a mantra as soon as they logged into the game and did their first group.

 

NBG was made a "thing" to stop douchebaggery of the type you are clearly prone to partaking in.

 

 

I'm all for sharing, but the day some player even attempt to tell me how to play or how to loot is the day I kick that player from the group.

 

With you attitude you're the one likely to be getting kicked from any groups. Just try it, when you next join heroic group try starting out with "Hi, I will be rolling need on everything as I need cash and probably have a half used pet someplace who can make use of gear" and see how many people want to play with you. It wont be many and those that do.... well they'll be just like you, so enjoy your group of a holes.

[Irusan]

That drips with so much irony it fantastically unbelievable!

 

You want player to give up their rolls to you so you have less competition at dice time and you mention words like "honour" and "decency" ??

 

You act like that it's not a 2-way street. Yes, I will pass/greed on an item not for my class so that the legitimate "need" may have it. And you do the same, then we don't all walk away from the group with a bagful of crap nobody is happy with. It's really not the rocket science problem you are making it out to be. I really can't help but feel you guys are being willfully obstinate about a very simple concept. As hard as it may be to swallow, not every piece of gear that drops in an instance will be for <insert class here>. And I don't like feeling painted into a corner of rolling "need" on everything that drops because you deem it cool. Now, if we are both of the same class and a piece we both need as an upgrade drops and we both roll "need" and I lose, well grats to you! I am fine with that.

[Eldren]

Eldren - Explain to me then why all people I met with BEFORE asking about loot rules had no problems following unwritten, unspoken social contract without me telling them about its existence and now that they are asked about it they respond to those having different approach (the one I call "no rules") as "a few bad apples"? Coincidence?

 

People will do things for a wide variety of reasons, which makes it hard for me to pin down one reason like you're asking for. I could posit that you hit the RNG jackpot in grouping with others of a like mind, I could posit that they came from World of Warcraft where that game's particular dynamics made a system like you're advocating work fine, or I could posit just about any other reason, all of which might be accurate or inaccurate.

 

Social contracts may be unwritten, and might on a moment-by-moment basis be unspoken, but on a general level they exist because they're prevalent in such a fashion that a given culture accepts them as given. This thread, the two it's continued from, and the others on the same topic, amply point out that only rolling Need on things for yourself and relegating aesthetics or companion gear to Greed is not a generally assumed rule, as much as some want it to be.

 

In America, we have a social contract that states you don't belch at a meal without excusing yourself. In Japan, it isn't remotely considered rude to belch after a meal. As a result, an American is unlikely to chastise a Japanese person for belching if they're aware of this cultural difference; likewise, the Japanese person might be confused at an American excusing themselves after belching, but they wouldn't feel insulted if they didn't hear a belch, even though it's meant to communication satisfaction from the meal due to being full.

 

We deal with an international community in this game as well, so social conventions are going to cross cultural boundaries, and what some consider acceptable others won't. Likewise, we have people coming in from previous MMOs where things were done a certain way due to those games' mechanics, and this game doesn't have those mechanics, or has added to them, such that older methods of doing things aren't as applicable anymore.

 

I'll use a World of Warcraft example because it seems to be the most familiar to people here. If you go into one of their recent 5-mans and see a BOP piece of plate drop with Strength and Crit on it, you'd think it would be most useful for a DPS Warrior, a DPS Death Knight and a DPS Paladin. Say, however, you have a tanking Death Knight in your group. That Death Knight would be able to roll Need on the Strength/Crit item because they have a DPS spec sitting there to be activated at any point, and it would upgrade the piece they currently have for that slot. However, under no circumstances would you find a Rogue, Mage, Druid or Warlock rolling for that plate piece. They can't put it on a pet. It's BoP so they can't give it to a guildmate or put it up on the auction house.

 

Now we move to The Old Republic. A BoP Strength/Endurance medium armor piece drops. You'd think it would go to the Sith Warrior. The Bounty Hunter wants heavy armor, the Sith Inquisitor wants light armor.

 

If all we had to worry about was our characters, it would seem obvious (other than someone rolling Need to vendor it; I don't like people doing it, but they technically have the right, so I can't complain, and I just need to roll so I have the best chance of getting it) who can roll Need on it, right?

 

But wait! That Bounty Hunter has a companion who wears medium armor that uses Strength and Endurance! They helped me down the boss, and they're going to use the item, even if it's going on a companion instead of them. As such, they have a valid reason for choosing Need. The item will be used, it won't be vendored. It isn't planned to be put up on the GTN (which it can't be since it's BoP anyway).

 

Fast forward to later in the same instance. An orange medium armor piece drops with Strength and Endurance mods in it. Once again you'd think it would go to the Sith Warrior. But the Bounty Hunter really likes the way it looks, and can slot in mods more appropriate to their class. As a result, they have a right to roll Need on it just as I do.

 

In short, the nature of gear and companions in this game necessitates taking a wider view of loot's usefulness to a given player, and thus whether it's "appropriate" for them to roll Need or not. Some will still argue "appropriate" to begin with, which I don't: I say if you were there to help defeat the boss, you've as much right to roll Need on the item as I do. But even amongst those who disagree, they'd benefit to realize a given piece has a much wider range of usefulness than a similar item in a game without this game's conditions would.

[Setanian]

So you're saying that if you agree to get datacron as a group dosen't mean you have to actually do it?

 

I'm saying that is not the definition of Ninja..

[Setanian]

It's pointless trying to discuss with someone who quotes someone without the proper context. Answer to that question is in my previous posts.

 

 

You're capable of deduction. You know they value specific gear. You know they defend their way of looting. They have reasons for it. Everyone has reasons. Understanding the source of the problem is one of the ways to produce a solution.

 

You stated 'common view'. You never provided facts or figures to assert that as being true. Therefore I have to assume to made it up.

[crica]

Understanding the source of the problem is one of the ways to produce a solution.

 

If they want me to understand a problem they have, they can tell me about it in the PuG party chat - unless they are unable to use party chat because they are disabled in some way - in which case they probably are not going to join any PuG I am in since they would not be able to ask for an invite to begin with.

 

I have no problems in any groups I am in - if we all help run the FP then we all get an equal chance to win the fruits of our labor that we will use.

 

No one ever tells me they have a problem.

 

Only time I have ever seen anyone say anything about loot is on forums.

 

In game, no one ever says anything and rolls Need on the gear they helped make drop and want to use.

 

Go ask the people who say they have problems if you want to know what their problems are.

 

They are free to tell me what their problem is if I am in their group.

Edited February 1, 2012 by crica

[Halinalle]

Was your pet in the group? No? Then it doesn't get loot rolls.

 

This is one of good points actually. I don't have problems for example healer needing tank gear for his/her companion if that companion actually contributed to group effort.

[Setanian]

No it wasn't.

 

Generally and Most popular. They even have a definition on WoWWiki.

 

 

 

Was your pet in the group? No? Then it doesn't get loot rolls.[/quote

 

I was in the group, that's all that matters.

 

 

 

NBG was made a "thing" to stop douchebaggery of the type you are clearly prone to partaking in.

 

But, but, you don't even know me.

 

 

 

With you attitude you're the one likely to be getting kicked from any groups. Just try it, when you next join heroic group try starting out with "Hi, I will be rolling need on everything as I need cash and probably have a half used pet someplace who can make use of gear" and see how many people want to play with you. It wont be many and those that do.... well they'll be just like you, so enjoy your group of a holes.

 

My group of a holes? But, but, I've never grouped with you.

[Eldren]

Was your pet in the group? No? Then it doesn't get loot rolls.

According to whom? Who made you the authority to determine who does or doesn't get to roll how they choose on loot?

 

 

 

NBG was made a "thing" to stop douchebaggery of the type you are clearly prone to partaking in.

Ad hominem attack, and pointless.

 

 

With you attitude you're the one likely to be getting kicked from any groups. Just try it, when you next join heroic group try starting out with "Hi, I will be rolling need on everything as I need cash and probably have a half used pet someplace who can make use of gear" and see how many people want to play with you. It wont be many and those that do.... well they'll be just like you, so enjoy your group of a holes.

I wish people would learn how to use a reductio ad absurdum argument properly; it's what you're attempting here, and failing miserably. You conclude that since someone wants to roll Need on things more often than you want them to, that they're somehow going to do so on every occasion. I've yet to see anyone say they'd do that in this argument as anything other than hyperbolic sarcasm.

 

Try arguing the point as presented, and not your interpretation of the point.

[Setanian]

You act like that it's not a 2-way street. Yes, I will pass/greed on an item not for my class so that the legitimate "need" may have it. And you do the same, then we don't all walk away from the group with a bagful of crap nobody is happy with. It's really not the rocket science problem you are making it out to be. I really can't help but feel you guys are being willfully obstinate about a very simple concept. As hard as it may be to swallow, not every piece of gear that drops in an instance will be for <insert class here>. And I don't like feeling painted into a corner of rolling "need" on everything that drops because you deem it cool. Now, if we are both of the same class and a piece we both need as an upgrade drops and we both roll "need" and I lose, well grats to you! I am fine with that.

 

#1 Show me any place I stated I roll 'need' on everything? You cannot, so don't post something as fact, when it is in truth, a lie.

 

#2 I'll roll 'need' on any reason I want if I 'need' it. It's a 2 way street, you can do the same, if you don't, well thanks.

 

#3 In my version you have a better chance of winning something than if you didn't need on the things you need.

[PoPPaDoM]

People will do things for a wide variety ..snip.

 

Was your pet on the run? No? Then it is a greed roll. The end.

 

You only roll need if YOU need it, not your pet, not your buddy, not your aunt sally. When your brother goes to work, you do not collect a wage.

[crica]

Was your pet on the run? No? Then it is a greed roll.

 

I don't recall placing you in charge of what loot I value the most.

 

You may now go back to only being in charge of what loot you value the most and being in charge of anyone who DOES place you in charge of what loot they value the most.

 

Thanks anyway!

 

Feel free to ask me to help you run a FP though, because I would be happy to help you get an equal chance to win the loot you value the most if you help me get an equal chance to win the loot I value the most in return!

 

Take care now!

Edited February 1, 2012 by crica

[Creed_Buhallin]

It's a possibility. Another possibility is that such approach is more common and recognized as correct my most of the people. Now, why people think that such approach is the right one and why so many follow it?

It could be that everyone agrees with you.

 

But given the level of threats and intimidation displayed in this thread, it could be the agreement with the bully. Someone sees a nice orange item they like the look of, roll on it, and are then verbally assaulted, kicked from the group, and come back to the fleet to find people screaming their name for being a thief. It's not hard to imagine that the "social norm" you're so fond of has been imposed by sheer intimidation, and those who agree have simply decided it's not worth the drama bomb.

 

<shrug> I know that's how it is for me. After watching this thread for the past week or so, I've pretty much resolved not to bother grouping with random people at all, and if I do will likely not take a very expansive view of "need". I'm sure you'll think it's a victory and you've shown me the error of my ways - I just think it's sad that the only way you can establish your norms is by doing everything you can to ruin someone else's play experience because they might think appearance was more important than stats.

[Maccaroth]

You stated 'common view'. You never provided facts or figures to assert that as being true. Therefore I have to assume to made it up.

It's a follow up from my previous posts, separating it from strain of discussion serve no real purpose and I will have no part in it.

 

Only time I have ever seen anyone say anything about loot is on forums.

Well, exactly the same here... It's kind of weird to be honest.

 

Eldren - It's not really an answer, but I can play along. I understand your point, but doesn't it mean that all is in the hands of the people themselves? All that is required is to find correct group and once we are in such there is no problem. Why are we having this conversation then if there can be two camps existing on their own?

[PoPPaDoM]

According to whom? Who made you the authority to determine who does or doesn't get to roll how they choose on loot?

 

Was the pet on the run? End of.

 

 

Ad hominem attack, and pointless.

 

If you do not know what an ad hominem is I wouldn't mention it.

 

I wish people would learn how to use a reductio ad absurdum argument properly; it's what you're attempting here, and failing miserably. You conclude that since someone wants to roll Need on things more often than you want them to, that they're somehow going to do so on every occasion. I've yet to see anyone say they'd do that in this argument as anything other than hyperbolic sarcasm.

 

Missplaced, your attempts at sophism are tired and obvious.

 

Try arguing the point as presented, and not your interpretation of the point.

 

There's very little to argue here... if it doesn't go directly on to your character then it is not need. The only exception to this is if some offspec gear drops for your class that nobody else can use, in which case you can the ASK if it is ok if you need.

 

The end.

[Halinalle]

I don't recall placing you in charge of what loot I value the most.

 

If we ever group up and I win item you need. Don't whine then. It's same rules for everone.

[Eldren]

Was your pet on the run? No? Then it is a greed roll. The end.

 

You only roll need if YOU need it, not your pet, not your buddy, not your aunt sally. When your brother goes to work, you do not collect a wage.

 

No, but if my brother is incapable of working on his own and lives with me, my wage pays for his food as well as mine.

 

Again, you're missing (or ignoring) the primary question: who makes you an authority on how other players can roll? You're making absolute statements while having nothing to back them up with. So please explain to me how you can say unequivocally that someone else can't roll for their companion?

 

More to the point, if you and I were grouped, I wouldn't be obligated to tell you anything one way or the other. All you'd see is that I chose Need on an item, and won it. Since no one owned it until it went into someone's inventory, that means I am its first owner. It's mine, what I do with it is no one's business but mine. You may think I'm going to equip a companion, you may think I'm going to sell it, you may think I'm going to reverse engineer it, you really have no way of knowing unless I tell you! I may tell you if you ask nicely, but don't assume it's an obligation.

 

If you want to live in a world where you relegate your companions to secondary status (and Greed rolls only), that's fine. But don't think it obligates someone else to act in the same fashion.

[Setanian]

Was your pet on the run? No? Then it is a greed roll. The end.

 

You only roll need if YOU need it, not your pet, not your buddy, not your aunt sally. When your brother goes to work, you do not collect a wage.

 

Unfortunately, for you, you do not get to tell us what we can or cannot roll need on.

 

Unfortunately, for you, you do not tell us when we're done debating.

 

And just one question? Who are you, exactly to dictate to me? or anyone else?

[crica]

If we ever group up and I win item you need. Don't whine then. It's same rules for everone.

 

Glad you agree with me!

 

Ready to help each other get an equal chance to win the gear we value the most?

 

Let's do this!!

 

*helps you run the FP*

[ShamDeluxe]

Y'all know what? This may be a generational issue.

 

I think old school players (people who have played MMOs for the past 8-10 years) are wired different because we are part of a different gaming and RL generation. We are more inclined to think of the betterment of people other than ourselves. We actually take into consideration the guy in our group with crappy gear rather than trying to go for self at all costs.

 

Skimming through this thread, I have noticed that the word "entitled" and different ways of discussing ENTITLEMENT keep coming up. It does not escape me that in RL currently this same idea of ENTITLEMENT keeps coming up. People doing stuff "just because they can."

 

I feel like the current RL generation, for the most part, is out for self. They feel like they are special just for being born and its their right to take, take, take. Unfortunately, this sense of narcissism has carried over into SWTOR.

[Creed_Buhallin]

If we ever group up and I win item you need. Don't whine then. It's same rules for everone.

LOL. You say this like it's some sort of threat.

 

For most of the people opposite you in this group, that's perfectly fine. If you decide you need something enough to roll on it, it's not my job to decide why - I trust you to make the decision for your own character. The entire POINT of this debate is that those of us on this side of it won't try and tell you what you can need on - we certainly aren't going to whine if you win it. I'll congratulate you and move on.

 

The other camp - your camp - would not. Your camp will scream at people for being ninjas, kick them from the party, blacklist them in their guild, spam fleet chat about what a ninja they are, and come to the forums to start massive rant threads about how horrible such a person is.

 

Who's whining when someone else wins a roll? Seriously?

[VanorDM]

We're talking about social norms here, btw.

 

Actually we're talking about a MMO here, which is a subset of society as a whole. Not everyone who plays SWTOR is going to be aware of your norms, and not everyone here is going to agree with them either.

 

If you assume people both know and agree with your precepts, then you are simply asking for problems sooner or later. Because the rules of loot can hardly be compared to things like you shouldn't lie to people.

 

You're also CAPABLE of grabbing a knife out of the drawer and stabbing someone. Doesn't mean you SHOULD.

 

Yes that's exactly the same thing as rolling need for an item, that gives me a chance to win it...

[Eldren]

Was the pet on the run? End of.

According to you. But since you can't control what I do in the game, I suppose that's empiric evidence that your statement isn't an absolute.

 

 

If you do not know what an ad hominem is I wouldn't mention it.

I know perfectly well what ad hominem is, and that you used it. Debate me on this if you like, but I haven't yet seen evidence that you'll be able to logically refute my statement on this issue.

 

Missplaced, your attempts at sophism are tired and obvious.

Present me with objective, irrefutable evidence that my argument was sophism, and we'll talk.

 

There's very little to argue here... if it doesn't go directly on to your character then it is not need. The only exception to this is if some offspec gear drops for your class that nobody else can use, in which case you can the ASK if it is ok if you need.

 

The end.

Again with the absolutist statements you've a) no authority to enforce and b) no objective evidence to present which would compel your opposition to change their position on the matter. I think you're hoping that if you just bang your head against the wall it'll break sooner or later.

 

Trust me, your head's more likely to give out first.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Eldren

[Setanian]

It's a follow up from my previous posts, separating it from strain of discussion serve no real purpose and I will have no part in it.

 

Of course you won't, you made it up and now cannot, back it up.