Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This thread makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I refuse to "agree to disagree" with the Entitled Generation here. If you are really that convinced that you are right and see nothing wrong with the "I roll need because I can, for any reason" mantra, then there is too far a gap between us as human beings to ever be bridged. I think it's more a gap of fairness. I want fair, you want to stop people taking their turn at the dice, so you have less to compete with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racsofp Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Group leader sets loot rules. If you don't agree with him/her, you get kicked. Yeah, great system.That is a great system. It's clear what loot rules are in place. If you think it should be different, don't join that group. It doesn't matter what rules are in place as long as everyone knows them prior to leaving on their little quest together. The rule in place could be something as stupid as "GROUP LEADER GETS EVERYTHING" and if everyone agrees to that, there is zero problem. The problem that is clearly evident in all these threads is that there is not one way to do this, but many people are having trouble understanding that other people may have different opinions. When no specific agreement is in place, the default rules of the game mechanics apply...in this case, people can roll need on whatever they want. Edited February 1, 2012 by racsofp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) you are really that convinced that you are right and see nothing wrong with the "I roll need because I can, for any reason" mantra No, I agree with "If I want changes to the default loot rules, I will speak up in my party and ask players if they would like to change them as well" mantra and the "If I help a group run group content, I want the same equal chance as everyone else to win the fruits of my labor" mantra. Edited February 1, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) TBF, sometimes you're stuck w/ninjas and don't won't to kick during an FP because you can't 3 man it and the server is dead. You just have to start need-rolling everything, too. It's disgusting but it works. It gets hilarious when the ninja complains that you're ninja'ing him. Some of these ninjas would love to play EVE Online. Actually I think they are EVE players. And this is why you join guilds, people. Ever notice an unguilded high level (35+) player - he's probably a ninja or antisocial. Yeah, my main is in guild. None of my 7 alts isn't. Would like to get my alts in guilds too but it's not easy when 90% of players are unfriendly. I don't want to be in guild players like that. Edited February 1, 2012 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The point is, that everyone should, start off as if there is no social contract of any form. That's my biggest problem with the one camp in this. This assumption on their part that there is a social contract and that I agree to it. The very concept of unwritten rules speaks to itself. How exactly can anyone be expected to know about a rule that's not written down? Clearly they can't be, yet people still do. A contract by it's very nature means an agreement between two people. Assuming someone both knows about it, and agrees to it, is a violation of the very concept of a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irusan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 No, I agree with "If I want changes to the default loot rules, I will speak up in my party and ask players if they would like to change them as well" mantra and the "If I help a group run group content, I want the same equal chance as everyone else to win the fruits of my labor" mantra. Yes, Im well aware. Even if those fruits mean very little or nothing to your toon as an upgrade, you are ENTITLED, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Some of these ninjas would love to play EVE Online. Do you actually know what ninja'ing is at all? You sling the word around like an insult with basis or fact to back it up. You really cannot be taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccaroth Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It just means they happen to value loot the same way you do and enjoy playing the game the same way you do. That is what is known as a "coincidence". It's a possibility. Another possibility is that such approach is more common and recognized as correct my most of the people. Now, why people think that such approach is the right one and why so many follow it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Yes, Im well aware. Even if those fruits mean very little or nothing to your toon as an upgrade, you are ENTITLED, right? I am entitled to an equal chance to win whatever I help work for, correct. Don't want me to have an equal chance to win it? Don't ask me to help work for it. Edited February 1, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Now, why people think that such approach is the right one and why so many follow it? Many people come from WoW where it worked that way. That doesn't mean they still agree with it here, just that they aren't going to rock the boat. It also doesn't mean that it won't change as SWTOR becomes more and more it's own rather then a mix of several different MMO communities. It also can mean that there's a lot of people stuck in a mindset that no longer applies and they haven't really thought it though yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) It's a possibility. Another possibility is that such approach is more common and recognized as correct my most of the people. Now, why people think that such approach is the right one and why so many follow it? Because it is what they value the most. Majority doesn't equal right. It just means alot of people hold the same values. The majority in the USA used to hold the same value on owning slaves. Did that make it right to own slaves? Edited February 1, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccaroth Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Why they value such approach the most? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irusan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It's a possibility. Another possibility is that such approach is more common and recognized as correct my most of the people. Now, why people think that such approach is the right one and why so many follow it? Have you been dipping into my supply of crazy pills? We are dinosaurs here, driven to extinction by our antiquated ideas of "sharing" and "honor" and "decency". I am going to get with the times and go beat up an infant or old lady, I think. (Not really) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Why they value such approach the most?Because they value that gear the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It's a possibility. Another possibility is that such approach is more common and recognized as correct my most of the people. Now, why people think that such approach is the right one and why so many follow it? Because it was really borne in warcraft, where lots of kids played and needed on everything. So someone got around to the NBG system and all these kids suddenly saw an opening to be able to get class gear super fast, because once something dropped that remotely fitted their class they were all over it espousing the NBG system. New players were like ***? I'll go along with it because they'll kick me if I don't. And now we have a generation of players who believe that their NBG system must be followed by all and that their threat of kicking anyone that doesn't conform, will teach those non-conformers. But now we have a new dynamic with pets that are companions and can be geared and have classes. And suddenly, players are saying "whoa, I need to gear these too" so, if something drops usable by them or their companion, they need it. The NBG system was kicked into people or it was instilled into them like a mantra as soon as they logged into the game and did their first group. They never realized or even thought, wait a g'damn minute, I can roll how I choose, and these guys are not going to tell me what to do. I'm all for sharing, but the day some player even attempt to tell me how to play or how to loot is the day I kick that player from the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Do you actually know what ninja'ing is at all? Do you know that champion you have to kill to get one datacron on Hoth? I've heard few times players grouping to kill it. You all agree to get datacron together. One of you wins item needed to unlock datacron -> drops group -> log out. I think I got it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Have you been dipping into my supply of crazy pills? We are dinosaurs here, driven to extinction by our antiquated ideas of "sharing" and "honor" and "decency". I am going to get with the times and go beat up an infant or old lady, I think. (Not really) That drips with so much irony it fantastically unbelievable! You want player to give up their rolls to you so you have less competition at dice time and you mention words like "honour" and "decency" ?? Edited February 1, 2012 by Setanian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Do you know that champion you have to kill to get one datacron on Hoth? I've heard few times players grouping to kill it. You all agree to get datacron together. One of you wins item needed to unlock datacron -> drops group -> log out. I think I got it right. Wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cioran Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 That's my biggest problem with the one camp in this. This assumption on their part that there is a social contract and that I agree to it. The very concept of unwritten rules speaks to itself. How exactly can anyone be expected to know about a rule that's not written down? Clearly they can't be, yet people still do. A contract by it's very nature means an agreement between two people. Assuming someone both knows about it, and agrees to it, is a violation of the very concept of a contract. Social Contract. Read Locke, Rousseau, or Rawls. You're missing something here. We're talking about social norms here, btw. There's a reason we do these things. Sure, the system alllows you to need roll, in that you're physically capable of pressing the button. It is not recommended though in terms of fostering group happiness if you needroll everything, then promptly vendor their orange BOPs in front of them at the end of the FP, which is what you probably do. You're also CAPABLE of grabbing a knife out of the drawer and stabbing someone. Doesn't mean you SHOULD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccaroth Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) So someone got around to the NBG system and all these kids suddenly saw an opening to be able to get class gear super fast, because once something dropped that remotely fitted their class they were all over it espousing the NBG system. What kids have to do with it? I can twist it the other way around - it's the kids who wants to reduce the system to roll/pass and it's the kids who are against common view here. Stop making it personal against people who thinks differently, because it's not the way people should discuss. Because they value that gear the most. Why they value that gear the most? (Slowly, but we're getting somewhere.) Edited February 1, 2012 by Maccaroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Social Contract. Read Locke, Rousseau, or Rawls. You're missing something here. We're talking about social norms here, btw. There's a reason we do these things. Sure, the system alllows you to need roll, in that you're physically capable of pressing the button. It is not recommended though in terms of fostering group happiness if you needroll everything, then promptly vendor their orange BOPs in front of them at the end of the FP, which is what you probably do. You're also CAPABLE of grabbing a knife out of the drawer and stabbing someone. Doesn't mean you SHOULD. I'm also capable of deciding myself how to roll. I don't need you dictating it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What kids have to do with it? I can twist it the other way around - it's the kids who wants to reduce the system to roll/pass and it's the kids who are against common view here. Stop making it personal against people who thinks differently, because it's not the way people should discuss. Why they value that gear the most? (Slowly, but we're getting somewhere.) Common view? Do you have any statistics at all to back that assertion up? No, didn't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Why they value that gear the most? Ask them, not me. I can't read their minds. If you are asking why I value the gear I value? Because I worked for it and I will use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Wrong. So you're saying that if you agree to get datacron as a group dosen't mean you have to actually do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cioran Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I'm also capable of deciding myself how to roll. I don't need you dictating it to me. typical ninja logic My depiction of a typical ninja smuggler *Ninja wins roll. /party HEALER- You're a ninja. That gear's 5 levels below you, BOP, and not even your class. Your companion can't even use it /party Ninja - It's for my alt /party HEALER - It's BOP, party member tank needed that /party Ninja Ninja - ijus rmv mods /party TANK - It's bound, I needed that for THIS toon /party Ninja Vendor. You hve NEEDROLL higher LOLOL. I'm quit. *Ninja has logged off Party is left w/healer off-DPSing Edited February 1, 2012 by cioran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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