Retaliation + Cloak of Pain + Cloak of Annihilation = nearly 100 percent uptime?

[Lashlarue]

I was debating the merits of retaliation in another thread. Some/most didn't agree that retaliation was worth it because of the relative high rage cost vs it's benefits, even taking it's ability to reduce the CD of cloak of pain using the 'cloak of annihilation' skill talent.

 

This is where things get a bit interesting, and I'm trying to get more feedback on it.

 

Hear me out:

• Cloak of Pain has a 1 minute cool down.
  
• It's maximum effective use on refresh from damage is 30 seconds. This being the case, you effectively have 30 seconds of 'standby' time for the 1 minute CD to refresh before you can use it again, unless you use Retaliate and assuming you received enough hits to extend Cloak of Pain to 30 seconds.
  
• The cool down for Retaliation is 6 seconds.
  
• For every Retaliation you fire, you get 6 seconds off the cool down of Cloak of Pain (assuming 2/2 in Cloak of Annihilation). There is no maximum amount of cool down reduction for Cloak of Pain you can affect with a successful Retaliation. It does not cap out.
  
• IF you hit Retaliation every 6 seconds, or every time it's available and assuming you have the rage for it AND are getting hit often enough, you can reduce the cool down for Cloak of Pain to 30 seconds giving you 100 percent uptime.
  

 

Now, granted, that's all perfect world scenario, but even if you hit Retaliation only half the time, you're only looking at about 12-18 seconds maximum on your Cloak of Pain cool down.

 

In endgame PvE, it's probably not a useful skill to take since your tank should be absorbing all the blows. However, in PvP, this seems pretty huge to me. Even if you only reduce your CD on Cloak of Pain 12 or even 6 seconds, it seems worth it.

 

The secondary side effect is if you take Cloak of Carnage 2/2. Higher uptime on Cloak of Pain also means more rage generation. So the benefit is really two fold:

Longer duration for Cloak of Pain for damage mitigation/reflection

Longer duration for Cloak of Pain for rage generation (assuming going 2/2 in Cloak of Carnage)

 

Both of those are really good things for PvP. For PvE raiding? Not so much.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Lashlarue

[Deviltreh]

Sadly I'm Annihilation and Quick Recovery > Cloak of Annihilation by a long shot. 1 rage converter for 4 fury for heals+damage or sprint? Yes please.

[Lashlarue]

I'm not even sure what you're saying. Quick Recovery is for smash and sweeping slash rage and CD reduction. It's got nothing to do with fury and heals.

[Sayc]

The issue being both getting a defense often enough with your 5% defense chance, and getting the skill to fire off in a reasonable manner. The idea of higher uptime on CoP is great, I just don't expect it'll work, for those two reasons.

 

I'm not even sure what you're saying. Quick Recovery is for smash and sweeping slash rage and CD reduction. It's got nothing to do with fury and heals.

 

You can dump your rage into 1 rage cost sweeping slashes, giving 4 fury per.

 

Obviously not when you're on a target, though.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Sayc

[Deviltreh]

I'm not even sure what you're saying. Quick Recovery is for smash and sweeping slash rage and CD reduction. It's got nothing to do with fury and heals.

 

You can use Sweeping Slash after a fight not to waste Rage and just let it decay, it will cost 1 rage and for each rage it will grant you 4 fury. With fury you can activate Berserker, which gives you 6 dot crits (= more damage) and restores 18% HP.

 

 

So while running to another target, Cloak of Pain finishes it's cooldown anyways and you start with 30 fury.

^That's why Quick Recovery > Cloak of Pain

Obviously not when you're on a target, though.

Yeah when you're on the target you use hard hitting abilities obviously, you use Sweeping Slash when there's no one around you.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Deviltreh

[AcaciaDragon]

I was debating the merits of retaliation in another thread. Some/most didn't agree that retaliation was worth it because of the relative high rage cost vs it's benefits, even taking it's ability to reduce the CD of cloak of pain using the 'cloak of annihilation' skill talent.

 

This is where things get a bit interesting, and I'm trying to get more feedback on it.

 

Hear me out:

• Cloak of Pain has a 1 minute cool down.
  
• It's maximum effective use on refresh from damage is 30 seconds. This being the case, you effectively have 30 seconds of 'standby' time for the 1 minute CD to refresh before you can use it again, unless you use Retaliate and assuming you received enough hits to extend Cloak of Pain to 30 seconds.
  
• The cool down for Retaliation is 6 seconds.
  
• For every Retaliation you fire, you get 6 seconds off the cool down of Cloak of Pain (assuming 2/2 in Cloak of Annihilation). There is no maximum amount of cool down reduction for Cloak of Pain you can affect with a successful Retaliation. It does not cap out.
  
• IF you hit Retaliation every 6 seconds, or every time it's available and assuming you have the rage for it AND are getting hit often enough, you can reduce the cool down for Cloak of Pain to 30 seconds giving you 100 percent uptime.
  

 

Now, granted, that's all perfect world scenario, but even if you hit Retaliation only half the time, you're only looking at about 12-18 seconds maximum on your Cloak of Pain cool down.

 

In endgame PvE, it's probably not a useful skill to take since your tank should be absorbing all the blows. However, in PvP, this seems pretty huge to me. Even if you only reduce your CD on Cloak of Pain 12 or even 6 seconds, it seems worth it.

 

The secondary side effect is if you take Cloak of Carnage 2/2. Higher uptime on Cloak of Pain also means more rage generation. So the benefit is really two fold:

Longer duration for Cloak of Pain for damage mitigation/reflection

Longer duration for Cloak of Pain for rage generation (assuming going 2/2 in Cloak of Carnage)

 

Both of those are really good things for PvP. For PvE raiding? Not so much.

 

This is all based around a "Perfect Scenario", with which we can control and anticipate, and PvP is everything but. On average Cloak of Pain will fall off after 10 seconds, meaning you will have 50 seconds of CD to get rid of

 

Lets shoot through a few examples:

 

1v1 in a WZ. This is the most Ideal. Hes hitting you, which triggers Cloak of Carnage and Retaliate, you can keep that move up almost indefintely with the CD reducer. Warzones this will most likely happen in: Alderaan Civil War. Open PvP Worlds/Servers.

 

Now lets look at the other 2 Warzones since thats where alot of other scenarios happen:

 

HuttBall

The idea is to go to where the ball is. Everyone congregates near it. If you are hitting the ball carrier, hes not hitting you back, he doesnt care that your hitting him, thus Retaliate will never pop, and cloak of pain wont reapply. Now if your fighting a whole group, you have a higher chance to get hit, but you have a higher chance to be ignored as there are other teamates who would also get it. Heres hoping for AOE and not getting focused, which in a group happens often, making cloak of pain paper armor compared to 4 people wailing on you.

 

Lets not forget, Tons of knockbacks in Huttball. Your CoP wont work when your out of LoS in the pit and putting your self in LoS jsut to replenish it is stupid. Also no one will be near you to use retaliate on.

 

Now there are 1v1 Situations in Huttball, primarily happening in the Pitt. But if your doing that, you not Huttballing right.

 

Voidstar:

This one is a gank fest with people 2v1ing people everywhere, making cloak of pain useful, but you wont last 30 seconds even with it up the whole time. not too many 1v1 situations here as it goes against the objectives of this Warzone.

 

This is your Second post regarding this. Go test this out in a Warzone and Stop theory crafting and making more threads. It means nothing until you can test it out and discuss what you found.

 

You should never EVER rely on Cloak of Pain for Rage generation. It should be used as a "Im going to get hit regardless, i might as well pop it and get something back for it."

[Lashlarue]

The issue being both getting a defense often enough with your 5% defense chance, and getting the skill to fire off in a reasonable manner. The idea of higher uptime on CoP is great, I just don't expect it'll work, for those two reasons.

 

Um...Huh?

 

Defensive chance doesn't play into the success of Cloak of Pain damage mitigation/reflection. You do get hit. Alot. TOR is a hit heavy game. Every 3rd GCD, assuming you get hit every GCD, you mitigate 20 percent of the damage and reflect damage back to your attacker. CoP isn't a passive effect, it's active. If it were passive, then the defensive chance would affect it.

 

Back in beta, they had a particle effect that played out every time you reflected damage. They ended up removing it because you reflected so often (every time you were hit), it looked all kinds of goofy (and caused lag).

[Sayc]

Um...Huh?

 

Defensive chance doesn't play into the success of Cloak of Pain damage mitigation/reflection. You do get hit. Alot. TOR is a hit heavy game. Every 3rd GCD, assuming you get hit every GCD, you mitigate 20 percent of the damage and reflect damage back to your attacker. CoP isn't a passive effect, it's active. If it were passive, then the defensive chance would affect it.

 

Back in beta, they had a particle effect that played out every time you reflected damage. They ended up removing it because you reflected so often (every time you were hit), it looked all kinds of goofy (and caused lag).

 

Defense does play a chance into getting a parry, which lets you use retaliate.

 

And, a majority of what you'll be getting hit by in pvp won't even be defendable against(force/tech).

Edited January 28, 2012 by Sayc

[Lashlarue]

This is all based around a "Perfect Scenario", with which we can control and anticipate, and PvP is everything but. On average Cloak of Pain will fall off after 10 seconds, meaning you will have 50 seconds of CD to get rid of

 

Lets shoot through a few examples:

 

1v1 in a WZ. This is the most Ideal. Hes hitting you, which triggers Cloak of Carnage and Retaliate, you can keep that move up almost indefintely with the CD reducer. Warzones this will most likely happen in: Alderaan Civil War. Open PvP Worlds/Servers.

 

Now lets look at the other 2 Warzones since thats where alot of other scenarios happen:

 

HuttBall

The idea is to go to where the ball is. Everyone congregates near it. If you are hitting the ball carrier, hes not hitting you back, he doesnt care that your hitting him, thus Retaliate will never pop, and cloak of pain wont reapply. Now if your fighting a whole group, you have a higher chance to get hit, but you have a higher chance to be ignored as there are other teamates who would also get it. Heres hoping for AOE and not getting focused, which in a group happens often, making cloak of pain paper armor compared to 4 people wailing on you.

 

Lets not forget, Tons of knockbacks in Huttball. Your CoP wont work when your out of LoS in the pit and putting your self in LoS jsut to replenish it is stupid. Also no one will be near you to use retaliate on.

 

Now there are 1v1 Situations in Huttball, primarily happening in the Pitt. But if your doing that, you not Huttballing right.

 

Voidstar:

This one is a gank fest with people 2v1ing people everywhere, making cloak of pain useful, but you wont last 30 seconds even with it up the whole time. not too many 1v1 situations here as it goes against the objectives of this Warzone.

 

So basically you're saying that since it's not perfect in every possibly situation, it shouldn't be used.

 

Gotcha.

 

This is your Second post regarding this. Go test this out in a Warzone and Stop theory crafting and making more threads. It means nothing until you can test it out and discuss what you found.

 

And you were appointed God of the Marauder forums by...who? I'll post about what I want to regardless of what you say.

 

Don't like it?

 

Don't read it. It's pretty obvious the subject and who wrote it.

 

You should never EVER rely on Cloak of Pain for Rage generation. It should be used as a "Im going to get hit regardless, i might as well pop it and get something back for it."

 

Never said one SHOULD rely on it, just as a secondary effect. L2read.

[Deviltreh]

Also Retaliation is weak and Annihilate costs 4 rage (and you need 5 to activate). Considering knockbacks and kiting, I'd rather spend rage on something else then waste ir for Retaliation.

[Lashlarue]

Defense does play a chance into getting a parry, which lets you use retaliate.

 

I hear the 'retaliate is available' sound effect quite often, to be honest.

 

And, a majority of what you'll be getting hit by in pvp won't even be defendable against(force/tech).

 

Now this part is very true...

[Lashlarue]

Also Retaliation is weak and Annihilate costs 4 rage (and you need 5 to activate). Considering knockbacks and kiting, I'd rather spend rage on something else then waste ir for Retaliation.

 

When did I bring Annihilate (and it's rage cost) into the conversation?

[Sayc]

So basically you're saying that since it's not perfect in every possibly situation, it shouldn't be used.

 

Gotcha.

 

Your perfect situation would require you to be getting hit by a melee/ranged attack between 3 and four times every second, on average(5% defense chance, 20 attacks on average per successful defense, 20/6 = 3.333). Considering that those are a minority of the skills used in PvP, you're going to crumple fast.

 

When did I bring Annihilate (and it's rage cost) into the conversation?

 

Its a matter of opportunity cost. The cost of using annihilate every 6 seconds, or whenever, is not only 3 rage, but also whatever other skill you could have used that rage on instead(such as annihilate).

Edited January 28, 2012 by Sayc

[AcaciaDragon]

So basically you're saying that since it's not perfect in every possibly situation, it shouldn't be used.

 

Gotcha.

 

 

 

And you were appointed God of the Marauder forums by...who? I'll post about what I want to regardless of what you say.

 

Don't like it?

 

Don't read it. It's pretty obvious the subject and who wrote it.

 

 

 

Never said one SHOULD rely on it, just as a secondary effect. L2read.

 

its usefull in a very small % of situations. Do you dispute that? No you arent even trying to. You were more concerned with taking what i said personally. I was explaining the most likely situations you will encounter.

 

I never said i was God of the forums, *** are you on? All i wanted was for you to actually try this out, All i have read is your theory which I believe are faulty at best. The fact you havent tested your own theory out shows how much confidence you have in this idea. I would love to be proven wrong, at the beginning of my PvP i thought CoP and Retaliate would be great, I couldn't have been more wrong.

[Deviltreh]

When did I bring Annihilate (and it's rage cost) into the conversation?

 

I did by discretly saying that retaliation SUCKS FOR THE BEST AND MOST EPIC SPEC!!

[FeeFiFoFum]

If youre getting hit that much, you will be dead.

[Pantheros]

Um...Huh?

 

Defensive chance doesn't play into the success of Cloak of Pain damage mitigation/reflection. You do get hit. Alot. TOR is a hit heavy game. Every 3rd GCD, assuming you get hit every GCD, you mitigate 20 percent of the damage and reflect damage back to your attacker. CoP isn't a passive effect, it's active. If it were passive, then the defensive chance would affect it.

 

Back in beta, they had a particle effect that played out every time you reflected damage. They ended up removing it because you reflected so often (every time you were hit), it looked all kinds of goofy (and caused lag).

 

He's referring to your assumption that retaliate will always be available on cooldown. Fact of the matter is, without saber ward up you have a 5% defense chance and furthermore a good majority of what you're hit with is undefendable in the form of force and tech attacks.

 

Second, retaliate is not worth the hefty rage cost, especially in a spec that requires big chunks of it.

 

People have already made the point that Quick Recovery is much better, both in the form of the buffed smash and the out of combat fury builder.

 

Cloak of Pain because of the on hit refresh mechanic is fairly lackluster in and of itself in pvp. Basing an entire build and devoting that much rage into it's maintenance is simply not worth 20% damage reduction which in reality, even with cloak of annihilation, probably would have very little uptime.

 

Also as the poster above me rightly pointed out, if you're being hit that much you're probably dead anyway rofl.

 

But since you seem rather militant about the whole thing no one is stopping you from speccing into it heh.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Pantheros

[Lashlarue]

This link is shows Cloak of Pain being up for 42 seconds (give or take 1 second) of a 50 second fight.

 

I used a naga to create a macro that basically spammed assault, cloak of pain, and retaliate. Force charged in, hit battering assault, started the macro. Same thing could be done any macro program like autohotkey or gaming keyboard/mouse/gamepad. This is done to create a baseline, and to show the potential. I fully realize that this is as controlled as it gets and replication in actual PvP combat playing keyboard gymnastics would be extremely difficult to replicate. Difficult? Yes. Impossible?

 

No.

 

Why? Because there are ways to have Retaliation fire every time it's available every time you press a hotkey. And none of them break the EULA/TOS.

 

Below numbers to do NOT include damage mitigation of the target and are reliant on the tooltips being accurate (since we do not have a combat log):

 

So, for ~42 seconds, cloak of pain regenerated 1 rage every 3 seconds (or total of 14 rage for the duration) and reciprocated 175 damage every 3 seconds (or total of 2450 damage for the duration). Additionally, Retaliate dealt 971-1189 damage per activation and fired 5 times for 4,855-5020 damage. On top of that, using assault in conjunction with Retaliate, everytime assault and Retaliate was used together (remember, Retaliate is off the GCD), the damage done was 1723-2193.

 

Additionally, for 42 seconds, 20 percent damage was mitigated by Cloak of Pain. Whether or not Cloak of Pain mitigates Force / Tech damage, I don't know. The tooltip doesn't say and due to lack of a combat log, nobody can say for certain as to whether or not it does. Anybody else can assume it doesn't, but for right now, I'm going to assume it does. The only real way to know for sure is to repeat the above several times against the same static target and see what happens at the end. The most reliable way to do that is to get a buddy to duel and hit me with force (or tech) attacks and see what happens when it's on and when it's off - that way you can know what you're being attacked with as long as they do the same thing every time. Suppose finding a Sorc and getting them to spam Force Lightning over and over would do it. It would probably take 100 more attacks to get a decent law of averages to make a definitive statement one way or another.

 

All that said, in a 1 vs 1 scenario? The 20 percent damage mitigation is pretty huge - the length of the encounter doesn't matter. Merely taking damage is going to keep Cloak of Pain up for the duration of the relatively short encounter. As far as damage dealt, the 175 damage every three seconds is kind of miniscule.

 

But the longer the fight, and especially in a group situation where you (hopefully) have some healers assisting you, the more effective it becomes to successfully use Retaliation to maximize its uptime. You don't HAVE to proc Retaliate every time it comes up because you're are going to have downtime where you aren't being attacked (either by death, or successful pushback/defeat of your opponents). But in a sustained fight, it becomes more advantageous to do so.

[Lashlarue]

Cloak of Pain because of the on hit refresh mechanic is fairly lackluster in and of itself in pvp. Basing an entire build and devoting that much rage into it's maintenance is simply not worth 20% damage reduction which in reality, even with cloak of annihilation, probably would have very little uptime.

 

You don't spec an entire build off of it. You use it to accentuate your build and your effectiveness. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

 

You certainly need to learn to see past the trees so that you can see the forrest.

[Sayc]

This link is shows Cloak of Pain being up for 42 seconds (give or take 1 second) of a 50 second fight.

 

I used a naga to create a macro that basically spammed assault, cloak of pain, and retaliate. Force charged in, hit battering assault, started the macro. Same thing could be done any macro program like autohotkey or gaming keyboard/mouse/gamepad. This is done to create a baseline, and to show the potential. I fully realize that this is as controlled as it gets and replication in actual PvP combat playing keyboard gymnastics would be extremely difficult to replicate. Difficult? Yes. Impossible?

 

No.

 

Why? Because there are ways to have Retaliation fire every time it's available every time you press a hotkey. And none of them break the EULA/TOS.

 

Below numbers to do NOT include damage mitigation of the target and are reliant on the tooltips being accurate (since we do not have a combat log):

 

So, for ~42 seconds, cloak of pain regenerated 1 rage every 3 seconds (or total of 14 rage for the duration) and reciprocated 175 damage every 3 seconds (or total of 2450 damage for the duration). Additionally, Retaliate dealt 971-1189 damage per activation and fired 5 times for 4,855-5020 damage. On top of that, using assault in conjunction with Retaliate, everytime assault and Retaliate was used together (remember, Retaliate is off the GCD), the damage done was 1723-2193.

 

Additionally, for 42 seconds, 20 percent damage was mitigated by Cloak of Pain. Whether or not Cloak of Pain mitigates Force / Tech damage, I don't know. The tooltip doesn't say and due to lack of a combat log, nobody can say for certain as to whether or not it does. Anybody else can assume it doesn't, but for right now, I'm going to assume it does. The only real way to know for sure is to repeat the above several times against the same static target and see what happens at the end. The most reliable way to do that is to get a buddy to duel and hit me with force (or tech) attacks and see what happens when it's on and when it's off - that way you can know what you're being attacked with as long as they do the same thing every time. Suppose finding a Sorc and getting them to spam Force Lightning over and over would do it. It would probably take 100 more attacks to get a decent law of averages to make a definitive statement one way or another.

 

All that said, in a 1 vs 1 scenario? The 20 percent damage mitigation is pretty huge - the length of the encounter doesn't matter. Merely taking damage is going to keep Cloak of Pain up for the duration of the relatively short encounter. As far as damage dealt, the 175 damage every three seconds is kind of miniscule.

 

But the longer the fight, and especially in a group situation where you (hopefully) have some healers assisting you, the more effective it becomes to successfully use Retaliation to maximize its uptime. You don't HAVE to proc Retaliate every time it comes up because you're are going to have downtime where you aren't being attacked (either by death, or successful pushback/defeat of your opponents). But in a sustained fight, it becomes more advantageous to do so.

 

Are you trying to argue the viability of CoP alone, or of CoP with talents? No one will argue that CoP isn't great. THe issue is that using CoA is just so ridicuslously not worth it in pvp. Simply TRY IT.

[Lashlarue]

I have used CoP without 2/2 in CoA. I found myself rage starved more times than not, and especially with less rage long term (carrying over from encounter to encounter).

 

TRY IT.

 

 

Secondarily what it shows is even in a 1 vs 1 against an equal conned elite which (most likely) has a lower accuracy value than another player, you get hit enough to keep it up for the duration of the max 30 seconds. Combine THAT with the rage generation, how can you NOT spec into CoA?

 

Short fights with lots of downtime? Won't matter so much. But longer ones or extended encounters where you find yourself in and out of combat quickly but continually? It's worth it.

 

Another way to look at it is that CoA helps mitigate the rage cost of Retaliation (off GCD), making it effectively a 1 rage attack that cannot miss, be blocked, or parried, AND that helps maximize CoP uptime for damage mitigation.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Lashlarue

[Sayc]

I'm sorry, I'm currently way too tired to give an intelligible response, hopefully someone else will.

[AcaciaDragon]

This link is shows Cloak of Pain being up for 42 seconds (give or take 1 second) of a 50 second fight.

 

I used a naga to create a macro that basically spammed assault, cloak of pain, and retaliate. Force charged in, hit battering assault, started the macro. Same thing could be done any macro program like autohotkey or gaming keyboard/mouse/gamepad. This is done to create a baseline, and to show the potential. I fully realize that this is as controlled as it gets and replication in actual PvP combat playing keyboard gymnastics would be extremely difficult to replicate. Difficult? Yes. Impossible?

 

No.

 

Why? Because there are ways to have Retaliation fire every time it's available every time you press a hotkey. And none of them break the EULA/TOS.

 

Below numbers to do NOT include damage mitigation of the target and are reliant on the tooltips being accurate (since we do not have a combat log):

 

So, for ~42 seconds, cloak of pain regenerated 1 rage every 3 seconds (or total of 14 rage for the duration) and reciprocated 175 damage every 3 seconds (or total of 2450 damage for the duration). Additionally, Retaliate dealt 971-1189 damage per activation and fired 5 times for 4,855-5020 damage. On top of that, using assault in conjunction with Retaliate, everytime assault and Retaliate was used together (remember, Retaliate is off the GCD), the damage done was 1723-2193.

 

Additionally, for 42 seconds, 20 percent damage was mitigated by Cloak of Pain. Whether or not Cloak of Pain mitigates Force / Tech damage, I don't know. The tooltip doesn't say and due to lack of a combat log, nobody can say for certain as to whether or not it does. Anybody else can assume it doesn't, but for right now, I'm going to assume it does. The only real way to know for sure is to repeat the above several times against the same static target and see what happens at the end. The most reliable way to do that is to get a buddy to duel and hit me with force (or tech) attacks and see what happens when it's on and when it's off - that way you can know what you're being attacked with as long as they do the same thing every time. Suppose finding a Sorc and getting them to spam Force Lightning over and over would do it. It would probably take 100 more attacks to get a decent law of averages to make a definitive statement one way or another.

 

All that said, in a 1 vs 1 scenario? The 20 percent damage mitigation is pretty huge - the length of the encounter doesn't matter. Merely taking damage is going to keep Cloak of Pain up for the duration of the relatively short encounter. As far as damage dealt, the 175 damage every three seconds is kind of miniscule.

 

But the longer the fight, and especially in a group situation where you (hopefully) have some healers assisting you, the more effective it becomes to successfully use Retaliation to maximize its uptime. You don't HAVE to proc Retaliate every time it comes up because you're are going to have downtime where you aren't being attacked (either by death, or successful pushback/defeat of your opponents). But in a sustained fight, it becomes more advantageous to do so.

 

I dont understand how this helps prove your theory. Your original post stated reasons why this theory benefits PvP more than an end Game PvE scenario. Yet you provide a video of you going up against an NPC Elite On Ilum. No one doubts in PvE situations this is useful. I used this ability alot leveling, I could spam retaliate alot. You will get hit while questing etc. Cloak of Carnage is great for that, and in extension Clock of annihilation and Retaliate and the Rage generation is huge...in PvE non-ops, This is not the same in PvP.

 

CoP does reduce damage from all attacks, i believe someone brought that up because even though it will grant rage from that type of an attack, it wont activate retaliate as that move only activates against a successful melee and ranged defense. So that brings up another point, what happens when your up against a sorc/sage? Most of there abilities use Force attacks, Retaliate wont activate. Now making cloak of pain a full minute long CD against these classes.

 

Its great you made the macro for it, but int hat video you jsut spammed assault. You obviously never got to experience any kind of state where you were low on rage while you tried to use your other big damaging abilities, which is the point I am trying to make. 3 Rage cost for that low damage(compared to other moves I can do as Carnage), despite being off the GCD, is not worth it, even if it reduces the CD of an ability that may stay up 30% of the time.

 

Again, try this out in PvP. You have yet to say anything on that whether you have tried it or not and that it worked out well for you.

 

Also the longer a fight goes on, the higher chance your enemy gets help from an ally, and 20% damage reduction only goes so far.

[Lashlarue]

I dont understand how this helps prove your theory. Your original post stated reasons why this theory benefits PvP more than an end Game PvE scenario. Yet you provide a video of you going up against an NPC Elite On Ilum. No one doubts in PvE situations this is useful. I used this ability alot leveling, I could spam retaliate alot. You will get hit while questing etc. Cloak of Carnage is great for that, and in extension Clock of annihilation and Retaliate and the Rage generation is huge...in PvE non-ops, This is not the same in PvP.

 

CoP does reduce damage from all attacks, i believe someone brought that up because even though it will grant rage from that type of an attack, it wont activate retaliate as that move only activates against a successful melee and ranged defense. So that brings up another point, what happens when your up against a sorc/sage? Most of there abilities use Force attacks, Retaliate wont activate. Now making cloak of pain a full minute long CD against these classes.

 

Its great you made the macro for it, but int hat video you jsut spammed assault. You obviously never got to experience any kind of state where you were low on rage while you tried to use your other big damaging abilities, which is the point I am trying to make. 3 Rage cost for that low damage(compared to other moves I can do as Carnage), despite being off the GCD, is not worth it, even if it reduces the CD of an ability that may stay up 30% of the time.

 

Again, try this out in PvP. You have yet to say anything on that whether you have tried it or not and that it worked out well for you.

 

Also the longer a fight goes on, the higher chance your enemy gets help from an ally, and 20% damage reduction only goes so far.

 

Congratulations on missing the point, I guess. And 20 percent damage reduction only goes so far? LOL. OK.

 

And for not noticing this:

 

Another way to look at it is that CoA helps mitigate the rage cost of Retaliation (off GCD), making it effectively a 1 rage attack that cannot miss, be blocked, or parried, AND that helps maximize CoP uptime for damage mitigation.

 

This little gem is the reality evolved from all this as to why CoA is even more beneficial than I thought.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Lashlarue

[AcaciaDragon]

Congratulations on missing the point, I guess. And 20 percent damage reduction only goes so far? LOL. OK.

 

And for not noticing this:

 

 

 

This little gem is the reality evolved from all this as to why CoA is even more beneficial than I thought.

 

Im done Your responses speak for themselves.