Sniper 50 MM - PVE - Not so pure dps

[yreaction]

Ok, hello fellow snipers

 

I have been reading this section since I started the game. I did my choice because I like blasters and randed playstyle and so PVE high end content.

 

We are aware tha there is not combat log or any real measure of our performance, so I have been doing my test with Lvl.50 Champions.

 

My current gear is full columi/rakata tier, no biochem and self buffs, I reach 1610 cunn, 34 crit, 65% from surge and 9300 ranged damage pri... and well trained in energy balance.

 

From average test with some mates with similar level stuff (Merc and Marauder), we have tested our average time to deal with a mob we can solo (120k hp,50 champ, that just melee and rarely knockback) without kite.

 

Here's the trick, I have use my main spec and rotation (MM), others rotations, others possible specs that everyone here know with their rotations or improved ones.

 

The results are that I need 15-20% more time to take the mob down. For those who can ask about if I used x or y, yep I have tested it, 100 kills already.

 

Since manu people yell like crazy to non 50 snipers and claim how good we can fight, well, not quite true even with all the suggestions or survival tricks.

 

I have spend my gameplay with a class that literally said in their description and advanced class that is a pure damage one, the best sharpshooters of the galaxy.

 

So NO, we are not, why? maybe the huge mitigation at level 50 mobs? Our powerfull skills habe a long cd? we don't get a full advant from tech power on our shoots? No idea, me and no one else here is a game developer assistant. The real true is that our situation does not take into our position role, rest is pure optimist.

 

Thanks and enjoy.

[DestyOwn]

Thanks for the comparison, Snipers need a huge buff and we all know it.

[KseriousEG]

wait so you solo a 120k champ and you'r trying to compare your dps to others? how much time are you spending knocking him back, leg shot, stunning, etc?

 

please explain further...

 

snipers are never going to have good dps while 1on1 with any target.

 

I believe snipers are already the highest sustained dps in PvE when they are supported by the group. we don't need any buffs there. we need help in PvP.

[KseriousEG]

how can you be only 1610 cunning in full rakata / columi? I'm 1699 with only 2 rakata and still missing 3 columi pieces. Edited January 26, 2012 by KseriousEG

[Jarkeld]

wait so you solo a 120k champ and you'r trying to compare your dps to others? how much time are you spending knocking him back, leg shot, stunning, etc?

 

please explain further...

 

snipers are never going to have good dps while 1on1 with any target.

 

I believe snipers are already the highest sustained dps in PvE when they are supported by the group. we don't need any buffs there. we need help in PvP.

 

just go eternity vauld and test it there @ those "solo" bosses.

[yreaction]

No pulses, no legshoots,etc.. just the auto cc from Dr.Lokin, medpacks (You can find him souteast from Illum Republic Outpost, fast respawn). Yah you get improved while in ops or grouped, like everyone else.

 

1710 Cunning typo... even If I shoot naked, that's not the point of my thread, I just show what I have test, feel or think as you want.

Edited January 26, 2012 by yreaction

[Lajiskin]

The 120k health rare knockback mob is the closest thing we have to a quantitative DPS metric at the moment. Having a timer going and seeing how long it takes to chew through the mobs HPs is as decent a test as any, and as many conditions were controlled and kept constant as possible.

 

If this is indeed true, and I have no reason to doubt it is at this point, then we need to be encouraging more testing and data analysis to bring to the Devs, rather than dismissing his testing for no good reason or making ignorant comments like quoting the common hearsay that we are good pve dps without any facts to support it..

 

EDIT: OP, could you post more details on the test? such as the time it took you average to kill the mob, so we can compare your numbers vs some of the spreadsheets out there? It's very possible there are bugs with the mechanics and how they are supposed to work via tooltip vs how they are actually working (Shield probe is a good example)

Edited January 26, 2012 by Lajiskin

[KseriousEG]

The 120k health rare knockback mob is the closest thing we have to a quantitative DPS metric at the moment. Having a timer going and seeing how long it takes to chew through the mobs HPs is as decent a test as any, and as many conditions were controlled and kept constant as possible.

 

If this is indeed true, and I have no reason to doubt it is at this point, then we need to be encouraging more testing and data analysis to bring to the Devs, rather than dismissing his testing for no good reason or making ignorant comments like quoting the common hearsay that we are good pve dps without any facts to support it..

 

EDIT: OP, could you post more details on the test? such as the time it took you average to kill the mob, so we can compare your numbers vs some of the spreadsheets out there? It's very possible there are bugs with the mechanics and how they are supposed to work via tooltip vs how they are actually working (Shield probe is a good example)

 

your post makes a lot more sense than the OP. I agree we need more details lol

[Viruzzz]

Your test is bad, you can't tell anything about dps from a 1v1 fight, whether against a mob or a player.

 

Also consider that those other players you were comparing with may not be at the same skill level as you.

 

Until combat log comes out you need to do a LOT more work than a few 1v1 fights.

[DestyOwn]

@above

 

Marksman is all about SINGLE Target DPS, how can you not compared with a Single boss..

[Jiav]

Ok, hello fellow snipers

 

I have been reading this section since I started the game. I did my choice because I like blasters and randed playstyle and so PVE high end content.

 

We are aware tha there is not combat log or any real measure of our performance, so I have been doing my test with Lvl.50 Champions.

 

My current gear is full columi/rakata tier, no biochem and self buffs, I reach 1610 cunn, 34 crit, 65% from surge and 9300 ranged damage pri... and well trained in energy balance.

 

From average test with some mates with similar level stuff (Merc and Marauder), we have tested our average time to deal with a mob we can solo (120k hp,50 champ, that just melee and rarely knockback) without kite.

 

Here's the trick, I have use my main spec and rotation (MM), others rotations, others possible specs that everyone here know with their rotations or improved ones.

 

The results are that I need 15-20% more time to take the mob down. For those who can ask about if I used x or y, yep I have tested it, 100 kills already.

 

Since manu people yell like crazy to non 50 snipers and claim how good we can fight, well, not quite true even with all the suggestions or survival tricks.

 

I have spend my gameplay with a class that literally said in their description and advanced class that is a pure damage one, the best sharpshooters of the galaxy.

 

So NO, we are not, why? maybe the huge mitigation at level 50 mobs? Our powerfull skills habe a long cd? we don't get a full advant from tech power on our shoots? No idea, me and no one else here is a game developer assistant. The real true is that our situation does not take into our position role, rest is pure optimist.

 

Thanks and enjoy.

 

I wrote something similar over a month ago, its true, but ppl dont see it without a combat log.

 

Our lategame scaling is just non existent. Just compare the % modifier of some classes with our own. Mercs got 60% crit chance on tracer which hits for 3,5 k crits in pve and vents their heat, not to mention 9k heartseeker missile and 2k unload procs. Even glad if my ambush with A CAST time hits for 5, and i full rakata with mods in surge.

 

We are the ONLY CLASS which has to autoattack because it has to wait for energy. Mercs with enough crit on tracer don't give a **** about heat. Sorcerers have the most easy energy mechanic in game.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Jiav

[yreaction]

Allright

 

This test started as a fun moment while doing daily quests, so I'm sorry about don't have a sheet with the real times, specs and other details. I just can say that the average time was 3:20 for me and 2:50-3:00 for the Marauder/Merc. I will try to do it so, but as everyone here complain, maybe i'm not so skilled... maybe that mob get more damage from the other class.. maybe a universe. There's a lot of things involved, I can't measure everything in such details (Sometimes I had a heals from the Merc). The fact is that I should be a bit quicker to do it with the same situation, damage rotation only, than a hybrid.

 

I really enjoy he class, nothing will make change to another role, my thread is just a point of view that could mean nothing, but I have done it because I started to feel like we have a cap, where others classes improve a lot with decent gear while we get a little stuck in damage purposes.

[DestyOwn]

Sniper is bad, i don't know how developers thought that the sniper class was good.

 

they probably never played it past lvl40.

 

and probably made the gear in 10mins on a rush between making Sorcs/Bh OP

Edited January 26, 2012 by DestyOwn

[Lajiskin]

Well, it's simple scientific method. You've brought to the table a hypothesis that our endgame 50 pve damage is not up at the commonly accepted level.

You need to get a controlled environment (the same 120k hp mob, no outside influences, stats, etc), controlled process (same approx latency, spec, and rotation), and perform multiple tests, precisely recording the results to see a supporting trend, as well as providing enough details on the above variables that others can repeat it with the same results.

 

Even then, that's only for that particular mob, and only for that particular spec and rotation. There are a lot of variables involved and it's going to take a lot of work to bring a project like this to the point that the Devs will pay serious attention to it. Without a log file it's going to be very difficult to get it to that point.

[yreaction]

As you say Lajiskin, with our current tools this barely reach the edge of a nice hypothesis.

 

Anyway I appreciate your comments and when I have some free time, would like fill that sheet.

 

PD: I'm sorry about the errors, smartphone writing/corrections.

[Irenicus_Jon]

This is an interesting read. I'd like to hear more statistics (either details from OP or from other people) on this issue. If we are truly being outgunned by classes that bring more than damage to the table, we're in serious trouble.

[JoyProtocol]

I have a comment for you to consider.

In my experience (lvl30), gold+ mobs have very thick armor, drastically reducing the damage of "white" attacks. Have you adjusted for this?

 

One of the benefits of Mercs is that their main damage comes from Tech-type damage (Elemental) while the Marksmanship spec of Snipers damage mostly come from Weapon-type damage.

 

Have you adjusted your rotation to accommodate for that? In an Ops situation, there would be multiple armor debuffs on the target.

 

If I'm fighting a heavily-armoured target in PvP (Jedi Knight, Troopers), I will modify my attacks. I will focus on 100% uptime on Corrosive Dart, I will use my tech abilities (Frag grenade, shiv+debilitate, explosive probe) heavily, and try to only use Ambush for weapon attacks (Due to the 20% armor penetration). Normal attacks, snipe and SoS (don't have that one yet) simply have too much mitigation going against them, but I never have problem bringing those targets down. I just keep them controlled.

 

Also, do you spend a lot of time getting away from the target? Being in the "I'm squishy" mentality can reduce your DPS.

[LaVolpex]

i have noticed this too, it is most easily noticable at a certain point, near thirty , specifically when you start the nar shada bonus series, a lot of armor on those mobs on that section , means everything is ridiculously hard to take down

 

so far, the best, most consistent dps seems to be going lethality and using poisons, for pvp seems to be engineering , with its varied assort of cc and probes emp and plasma is perfectly suited to defend objectives and nuke on the run wiht proes and granades

 

marksmanship needs one thing and one thing only

 

that one or more of our talents on the marksmanship tree include armor penetration for more atacks on our rotations ( IE make our second tier talent that gives ambush armor penetration also include snipe and takedown , even if at different %'s )

 

that is only one suggestion but you get the idea, seems the one factor that is bringing marksmanship dps down is its reliance on weapon damage and the high armor on most mobs endgame , also the fact that near 90% of the high damage abilties a marksmanship sniper uses have ZERO armor penetration regardless of spec

 

Can i suggest testing this on a high hp mob that you know has low armor values?

i guess a simple , very limited test would be to test the same abilty over and over and over on the same mob and compare the damage of say, 30 or 40 uses of the abilty on the mob you tested VS another low armor value mob and compare the average damage on each (for example use snipe as energy allows regardless of how you end up killing the mob, just take note of the average damage of snipe on each cast)

 

 

 

im willing to bet we see a huge increase in dps because of this

Edited January 26, 2012 by LaVolpex

[NotRonin]

Can the OP provide the name/location of the mob? (is it Greymane?) The way to convince other people is for another snipers to repeat the same test on their server. . Other snipers who believe they are equal/better than Mercs/Marauder can repeat the test and see if they can beat 3 minutes.

[Jiav]

Can the OP provide the name/location of the mob? (is it Greymane?) The way to convince other people is for another snipers to repeat the same test on their server. . Other snipers who believe they are equal/better than Mercs/Marauder can repeat the test and see if they can beat 3 minutes.

 

EV 4 th boss on marauders? Just compare with other classes?

[yreaction]

Dear snipers, I'm at your side. Im not going to take a further analysis or anything else because Im a player and Im out lf carfting theory since SWG. It just a sense, since I started to get tier gear I did not see a quantitative increase, maybe im a really bad player but its how I feel in PVE High end.

 

Today, Council HM 8 man, I was the 7th vs the 110k assasin, used everything but cc and stuff since is usseles. It burst at the begin but then is not so sustained as many of you say. Ill try to improve myself, maybe just bad manners or false sense.

 

thanks

[Revotz]

Thats true, we have good burst but not so good dps...

[Seoleim]

Sometimes I also feel a bit weak on my sniper. In pvp it makes me want to tear my hair out because without dual spec i'm sort of forced to spec lethality if I want to do ok damage. Then have to respec back to raid. Stupid. That is all beside the point though. Anyway here are some ideas I have

 

- Ambush should not be deflectable as this is an instant hit, extremely high speed shot like the rail shot for bounty hunters. Ideally this would also ignore some armour passively of at least 15% but this is what kills pvp for me as marksman.

 

- Followthrough should deal internal damage. To me the name implies that it's going through the same hole as the previous shot. That would hurt quite a bit I imagine, getting shot twice in the exact same spot. Perhaps even give it a small bleed for say... 20% of the damage delt over 6 seconds?

 

- Each Snipe should give give a Heatseaker Missile 5% damage boost to Series of Shots stacking a max of 4 times (since there are 4 shots).

 

I'd like to see at least the followthrough idea go in but I doubt any changes will be made in a hurry since they seem to be focusing on content rather than balance right now.

[JoyProtocol]

- Followthrough should deal internal damage...

 

You know, this would actually fix a lot of problems...

[muffinslol]

i dont know how it took you 3 mins to burn 120k hp....it takes me a min and 40ish seconds to burn 120k hp, granted that was playing 23/16/2 and a couple weeks ago...but still....