mara + merc vs vanguard + sage

[Foxcolt]

In a recent WZ we came across a vanguard and sage guarding a turret and started to enage.

 

Healer (Sage) had guard and despite the heals I was getting from my merc I could not seem to down him. Every time I would get the healer low (making sure to use all my interrupts as anni spec'd) I would get CC'd/pulled/rooted/whatever by the vanguard at that last crucial moment and watch the sages HP go from 10% back to 100%

 

Of course hopping on the vanguard would have been difficult as I couldn't just leave the healer alone to do his thing.

 

After about 1min of fighting we just decided it wasn't worth it and I aoe mez'd and we walked away.

 

So all things being equal who would win in this fight? Is it possible for a mara/merc healer to win a 2v2 vs a van/sage healer? From my recent run in it almost seems like it would end in a stalemate or would just go on for a very very long time.

[Caliban_Thule]

People who dont understand expertise will tell you they rip healers apart.

 

Unless you overgear the healer you have to hope they run out of resources before you can kill them, if they are any good (and that will take a long while, if ever).

 

If they have backup, you wont kill them. You will need to bring a few friends with CC to do it.

 

The problem is, given equal gear, you will do lets say 10% more damage, and they will mitigate 10% more damage, and heal for 10% more. So the end result is, as everyone caps out expertise, healing is better.

 

Thats it. That is the end result of PvP gear. Healers get harder and harder to kill, and you do the same damage.

 

Now, run up against someone you out gear, and you can stomp them. But is that anything to really brag about?

[Usire]

They would probably win, it might take a while, but the vanguard could just focus on your healer, as they don't have a guard on them they would be taking full damage instead of half, which is why healers are usually so hard to kill.

 

Unless you have several people pounding on a guarded healer, you're probably not going to kill them, unless you can force them to use up all their energy, which in a 2v2 match would probably not happen unless they're attacking also.

 

You might be able to gain an advantage if you could get the other healer to use his break out of CC skill, then have your merc use concussion rocket to take him out of the battle for a bit, but you would have to burst the vanguard down pretty fast to stop his healer from undoing all the damage you do.

[Caliban_Thule]

They would probably win, it might take a while, but the vanguard could just focus on your healer, as they don't have a guard on them they would be taking full damage instead of half, which is why healers are usually so hard to kill.

 

Unless you have several people pounding on a guarded healer, you're probably not going to kill them, unless you can force them to use up all their energy, which in a 2v2 match would probably not happen unless they're attacking also.

 

You might be able to gain an advantage if you could get the other healer to use his break out of CC skill, then have your merc use concussion rocket to take him out of the battle for a bit, but you would have to burst the vanguard down pretty fast to stop his healer from undoing all the damage you do.

 

I think I found the solution to all the problems.

 

Give marauders and snipers purge.

[zYNNN]

IN a 2v2 scenario, without using LoS etc personally speaking you best bet would perhaps open on the the vanguard, and switch when you have full stack of fury on the healer.

 

I havn't played car/rage I play Ann, but just open on vanguard with something like ;

 

Charge->Saber->Battery->Rupture->Annihilate, When you have that full stack of fury get ready for a switch,

 

Something really aggressive - but have the merc blow the barrier and try to to see how long on the debuff left before the next barrier comes up, and use that as a timer to really put pressure on the sage.

 

Switch back on vanguard, again it will take a while.

 

You have to remember, sages are very very resource efficient, if played right Force becomes a non issue to them. Another thing to remember is you never want the healer to get himself into a rhythm because then it's almost impossible, just try not to be predictable.

 

Now with things like LoS and terrain it becomes a different issue.

 

If anything, if you predict whats going to happen set up for it, if the sage is low, most likely he will - Rejuv > deliverance > deliverance, which if crit can bring him back up very quickly. It's not easy interrupting Deliv with a 1.4 sec cast time with the lag etc in this game, but if u can it's pretty much a kill tbh.

[xSkynet]

People who dont understand expertise will tell you they rip healers apart.

 

Unless you overgear the healer you have to hope they run out of resources before you can kill them, if they are any good (and that will take a long while, if ever).

 

If they have backup, you wont kill them. You will need to bring a few friends with CC to do it.

 

The problem is, given equal gear, you will do lets say 10% more damage, and they will mitigate 10% more damage, and heal for 10% more. So the end result is, as everyone caps out expertise, healing is better.

 

Thats it. That is the end result of PvP gear. Healers get harder and harder to kill, and you do the same damage.

 

Now, run up against someone you out gear, and you can stomp them. But is that anything to really brag about?

 

Finally another voice of reason, ppl need to understand that a GOOD healer who equals or out gears you will not go down in a 1v1. It's not that they will kill you, the fight will just constantly be reset. While bad healers fall over like old ladies. You really need an assist train to drop shielded/guarded good healers, but thats what group pvp is all about.

[Foxcolt]

It's funny, with healers it's either one extreme or the other.

 

I can watch a not so good healer panic and take them down with ease and on the flip side I run across healers that seem to know what their doing and my only recourse is to hopefully annoy them enough to stop healing others and focus on themselves. Essentially taking them out of the game for my group to mop up.

 

But get a good tank + healer, with guard plus kb's and stuns I've never felt more useless. Makes me really wish we had a pull ability as it seems it would be perfect to deal with that exact situation.

[Rohns]

A fight you can't win even 3 vs 2 is a commando healer and a vanguard tank they're almost unkillable together

[memoriesofprey]

A fight you can't win even 3 vs 2 is a commando healer and a vanguard tank they're almost unkillable together

 

Really? For some reason I find it harder with the Sage healers and vanguard tank. Probably because a lot of them seem to be getting smart enough to spam snares/stuns and kite. In warzones, I actually come across the same six or seven Republic healers, and they've all learned to do that.

 

God, I miss the days when they just stood still.

 

What's worse is that the teams tend to protect them extremely well. Something I can't say for our side, though that's probably in part due to the healer deficit on Empire in Jung Ma. Hopefully, we'll learn to protect our healers with the same single-minded focus.

Edited January 26, 2012 by memoriesofprey

[EasymodeX]

Oh please. Just pump enough damage into the healer and the Vanguard will die.

 

In a low-team versus healer situation, you better be Annihilation though. Carn and Rage would not win [solo] against a tank + healer combo.

 

Just don't burn any significant cooldowns like Choke until later into the grind.

[Foxcolt]

Oh please. Just pump enough damage into the healer and the Vanguard will die.

 

In a low-team versus healer situation, you better be Annihilation though. Carn and Rage would not win [solo] against a tank + healer combo.

 

Just don't burn any significant cooldowns like Choke until later into the grind.

 

A lot of the sorcs/sages are getting smart enough to purge our dots now.

[Majinr]

A lot of the sorcs/sages are getting smart enough to purge our dots now.

 

lol any healer with the right mind will not purge , as a heal will outheal the damage from the dots, seriously lol where did this come from the whole "purge" idea - if they do purge it doesnt matter deadly saber cd is So frequent and rupture is up almost at all times so what is the point in wasting GCD to purge instead jus healing the damage completly lol

 

ANd its not like that's all a Anni can do we stil have 1 rage cost smash - VS - VT- BA - Annihalte so many other useful skills by the time the dots are back up again (which btw is SOO frequent) seriously lol no point purgin mara dots

[Foxcolt]

lol any healer with the right mind will not purge , as a heal will outheal the damage from the dots, seriously lol where did this come from the whole "purge" idea - if they do purge it doesnt matter deadly saber cd is So frequent and rupture is up almost at all times so what is the point in wasting GCD to purge instead jus healing the damage completly lol

 

ANd its not like that's all a Anni can do we stil have 1 rage cost smash - VS - VT- BA - Annihalte so many other useful skills by the time the dots are back up again (which btw is SOO frequent) seriously lol no point purgin mara dots

 

Your post clearly makes it seem like you've never come across a healer spec'd into purge and that is smart enough to know how to use it.

 

My dots w/ beserk tick for 1+k each..I can take 70% of someone's health bar in a force choke if I stack everything right, relics, adrenal, beserk etc.

 

Purge is on a 4.5 second cooldown.

Rupture 15 seconds at most, depending on vs/anni

Deadly saber 12 seconds

 

You do the math...

[Draexnael]

Oh please. Just pump enough damage into the healer and the Vanguard will die.

 

In a low-team versus healer situation, you better be Annihilation though. Carn and Rage would not win [solo] against a tank + healer combo.

 

Just don't burn any significant cooldowns like Choke until later into the grind.

 

I seriously wonder if :

 

a) Your level 50 and actually done any PVP

b) Your realm, as it appears everyone you come up against are keyboard turning numpties.

 

If your telling me you can solo a tank + healer combo you've just lost the last bit of (if you had any anyway) credibility from these forums.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Draexnael

[EasymodeX]

I agree the cleansing is significant, but that doesn't really change much: I'm still doing a net positive damage with a high interrupt rate. The question is when the healer stops cleansing on cooldown to try and make up lost health. That is when DPS accelerates and they have to hit cooldowns and CCs to try and recover.

 

The key will be making sure you rotate your defenses appropriately on the Vanguard so that your Merc buddy has plenty of room to unload damage on the Sage as well.

 

If your telling me you can solo a tank + healer combo

 

Of course I can solo a generic tank+healer combo as long as they're not significantly great at the game. With even-skill and gear, though, we return TO THE CONTEXT SET BY THE ORIGINAL POSTER, WHO HAD A MERC BACKING HIM UP.

 

Sit down son.

Edited January 26, 2012 by EasymodeX

[Majinr]

Your post clearly makes it seem like you've never come across a healer spec'd into purge and that is smart enough to know how to use it.

 

My dots w/ beserk tick for 1+k each..I can take 70% of someone's health bar in a force choke if I stack everything right, relics, adrenal, beserk etc.

 

Purge is on a 4.5 second cooldown.

Rupture 15 seconds at most, depending on vs/anni

Deadly saber 12 seconds

 

You do the math...

 

lol deadly saber cannot be counted as a 12 second cd as your pretty much have it active at all times so you can't expect him to purge the FIRST stack i mean lets see

 

First stack applied 1.5 seconds + 2nd + 3rd daz 3 x 1.5 seconds = 4.5 seconds already into deadly saber cd and this is when the healer SHOULD purge - if purge is not specced it will only remove one stack anywy - but if a healer is really stupid enuff to purge it , you really think he is gna wait for us to stack 3 stacks and then purge? i mean what bout all the other damage that is used to apply them like maybe - rupture , VS , Annihalte ? so you realy think a healer is going to try and purge to waste a GCD and then try to heal where we can not only disrupt with shorter cd + force choke or use force leap with 5 meter range? or try and heal himself to compensate for the damage done to apply those stacks?

 

As an example I have a healing merc friend who can on average heal 4.6 k in 1.7 cast time = heals better than purge as purge really will not help them out

Edited January 26, 2012 by Majinr

[Draexnael]

I agree the cleansing is significant, but that doesn't really change much: I'm still doing a net positive damage with a high interrupt rate. The question is when the healer stops cleansing on cooldown to try and make up lost health. That is when DPS accelerates and they have to hit cooldowns and CCs to try and recover.

 

The key will be making sure you rotate your defenses appropriately on the Vanguard so that your Merc buddy has plenty of room to unload damage on the Sage as well.

 

Of course I can solo a generic tank+healer combo as long as they're not significantly great at the game. With even-skill and gear, though, we return TO THE CONTEXT SET BY THE ORIGINAL POSTER, WHO HAD A MERC BACKING HIM UP.

 

Sit down son.

 

Your as bad as Hizoka as a troll on this forum. Your realm must be so terribly bad you've gained this huge ego - your arrogance in thinking your good just screams attention whore - post a video of you beating down a rank 50+ healer otherwise hush.

[EasymodeX]

Your realm must be so terribly bad

 

Anchorhead is definitely scrub-central. Last night I even solo'd two Sages at once in Ilum (one Madness-equivalent, one heals), the competition here is so bad.

 

 

post a video of you beating down a rank 50+ healer otherwise hush.

 

You're joking right? Everyone knows rank 50+ healers are godlike immortal unpossible to kill by lowly Marauders. I take one look at a Champ robe and turn tail to afk in a corner.

[Draexnael]

Anchorhead is definitely scrub-central. Last night I even solo'd two Sages at once in Ilum (one Madness-equivalent, one heals), the competition here is so bad.

 

You're joking right? Everyone knows rank 50+ healers are godlike immortal unpossible to kill by lowly Marauders. I take one look at a Champ robe and turn tail to afk in a corner.

 

The community shall await your video (shouldn't take so long as your so good.)

 

 

Kids and their forum trolling - gets better with age I've heard.

[Rohns]

I agree the cleansing is significant, but that doesn't really change much: I'm still doing a net positive damage with a high interrupt rate. The question is when the healer stops cleansing on cooldown to try and make up lost health. That is when DPS accelerates and they have to hit cooldowns and CCs to try and recover.

 

The key will be making sure you rotate your defenses appropriately on the Vanguard so that your Merc buddy has plenty of room to unload damage on the Sage as well.

 

 

 

Of course I can solo a generic tank+healer combo as long as they're not significantly great at the game. With even-skill and gear, though, we return TO THE CONTEXT SET BY THE ORIGINAL POSTER, WHO HAD A MERC BACKING HIM UP.

 

Sit down son.

 

With the same gear as you?

it's almost impossible against 2 Dps (with your gear), Maybe you can cut down one, probably considering marauder's defensive ability but the other one will kill you for sure

A tank+Healer is the best for keeping a position, both tank and healer have CC or at least pushback and meanwhile the healers heals

are you telling me you can still dish out damage while CCed and in the long fight you win whilke you don't have heals

Can you withstand the attacks of the tank while hitting them both?

 

Maybe I'm playing my marauder badly if I can't win a WZ alone or oblirate single-handly all of the opposing faction, please explain me how to play this class

[EasymodeX]

it's almost impossible against 2 Dps (with your gear), Maybe you can cut down one, probably considering marauder's defensive ability but the other one will kill you for sure

 

That depends on which DPS specs and the state of your cooldowns and how the fight opens. It's entirely plausible against specific opponent types that are susceptible to Obfuscate, or if the terrain favors you LOSing a sniper or tracerlol. If your opponents are exactly equal to you in skill and gear (which never happens), then naturally you'd lose a raw 2v1 fight.

 

Equal skill and conditions never happen in PvP.

 

 

are you telling me you can still dish out damage while CCed and in the long fight you win whilke you don't have heals

 

Annihilation, brah, with a Merc healer looking in your general direction, can take a ******** of punishment. A tank + healer do about jack **** worth of damage against you in that context.

 

 

Can you withstand the attacks of the tank while hitting them both?

 

If the tank is actually spending GCDs to protect the healer, then yes, easily. If the tank is hybrid or DPS spec, then your Merc buddy will actually have to look in your general direction and pass you a heal every 15-20 seconds.

 

 

Maybe I'm playing my marauder badly if I can't win a WZ alone or oblirate single-handly all of the opposing faction, please explain me how to play this class

 

Sorry, I can't win a Warzone solo either, but I try to make a pretty good show of it.