Does lightside Jaesa ever come to accept the Empire?

[AJediKnight]

So I am playing a fairly neutral Sith Warrior right now. I have seen Jaesa from both sides thanks to beta -- the blood-sucking, pseudo-vampiric, 'whoa, she's waaaay darker than me' Jaesa, and the wannabe-Jedi, hates-the-Empire, 'you are sooo boring' Jaesa -- and now that I am playing a Jugg for real and occupying a rather center-based position, I was wondering what ultimately happens with Jaesa?

 

I'm play a female character, so romancing her doesn't really affect my decision here. Having said that...

 

 

... I distinctly recall several occasions with lightside Jaesa in the beta where she harped on my character about 'taking down the Empire,' or, in the least, changing it.

 

My Sith is neutral, and that's only because so many of the choices in this game that show loyalty towards the Empire are lightsided. Thus, I have absolutely no desire, either as a player or a character, to damage or significantly change the Empire -- that's allllll coming from lightsided Jaesa.

 

I mean, where she got the idea that I wanted to do that, I'll never know, because when I recruited lightsided Jaesa, there was never some moment where I was like "oh, by the way, I'm on a crusade to topple my own faction." It never happened. We just got back to my ship and suddenly she was like "oh master, we're totally going to change stuff!" and I'm like "????"

 

Having said that, darksided Jaesa is almost too dark. Like, I hate the sensation that I am toting around this little mass murderer all the time. While my Sith is hardly a saint, she understands the value in moderation. Darksided Jaesa doesn't even seem to know what the word moderation means. I can see her now, trying to stumble through even saying it... "Mo.. moder... mod-her-haytion? Is that right master? Now can we get back to killing children and skinning cats?"

 

So, right now I am kind of leaning towards getting lightsided Jaesa despite her basically being a traitor. Does she ever moderate on this 'reform the Empire' bit? Is there any way to tell her to shut up, or to get off this high horse regarding 'change?' I'm not interested in what she's peddling, and she needs to understand that she's working with a Sith and get with the friggin' program.

 

 

Any and all help/opinions/thoughts would be much appreciated, as I am rapidly approaching the end of chapter 1, and need to decide which direction to grind ~1000 points of LS/DS.

Edited January 24, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Teioh_White]

Sadly, no, she never gets over it. And like you, I was wondering where she got this idea from. Just because I'm not an *** to everyone doesn't mean I don't support the Empire. All the talks with her are about that though, so yeah, LS Jaesa is a little annoying if you just want to be an honest, decent, hard-working Sith.

 

Sadly, DS is no better like you said, she really jumps off the deep end into a completely different and annoying person on that path.

[Mertissielle]

I played 100% Light (well, except for one time I choked a guy out for being a douche and grassing me up to the boss man, but I'm still Light V ) and the conversation I had with Jaesa when she joined was along the lines of reforming the Empire to be more about ruling benevolently and using the structure of the Empire as a force for peace.

 

 

She also does her whole bit of trying to "reach out" to other Light-sided Sith but they basically tell her to go do one, so she gives up on it and just tries to be like me instead.

 

 

Maybe the fact that you took a kinda neutral approach to that point meant you missed out on some of the context as the game assumes that if you're taking Light Jaesa then it means you've seen other Light-side conversations from earlier in the game.

 

But yeah, the basic gist is to stop the Empire being all rargh rargh lets conquer everyone for funsies and turn it into some kind of wonderous utopia where the Empire will be used to protect everyone and give everyone a great quality of life.

 

She's like a socialist equal ops fairy with a lightstaff.

[gibmachine]

Short answer: no

 

Long answer:

 

 

It's extremely unfortunate to be honest because after she becomes your apprentice, it's either one of two extremes. She's unable to be the actual dark apprentice and you either have a Jedi infliltrator playing the dark apprentice or Nolan's chaotic evil Joker (which I personally adore but then again, I'm not entirely normal).

 

Also, what really bugs me (and I think will be pretty important for you) is that during one of LS Jaesa convos, she tells you that there are overseers in Korriban academy posing as Sith but teaching the ways of Light (aka false Sith no matter how you look at that) and when finds out that one of more brutal Sith Lords kills them, your own character appears to be extremely sad and on the verge of crying. While you don't actually see it outside of this one romance, your SITH WARRIOR is made out to be a Jedi infiltrator who's bent on completely reform the empire and make it into centralized republic.

 

It's disappointing that you're unable to obtain proper apprentice who is more level-headed and values power over random killing (which is how I envision LS Sith, thus I hated when I had to kill Malgus cause his idea for the empire is pretty awesome) and the truth is that even though I originally wanted to go LS, seeing LS Jaesa convos made me change my mind since I wouldn't be able to immerse myself knowing that my character is more of a Jedi rather than Sith with no desire for random overkill. It's pretty stupid that the game takes your LS decisions and treats it not like you simply don't kill everything because it's unnecessary and people might have their uses but rather that your oh so benevolent leader who wil work for peace and galaxy-wide prosperity. SW story is amazing and I love it but this thing right here is bad writing.

 

Edited January 24, 2012 by gibmachine

[Thuggy]

Short answer: no

 

Long answer:

 

 

It's extremely unfortunate to be honest because after she becomes your apprentice, it's either one of two extremes. She's unable to be the actual dark apprentice and you either have a Jedi infliltrator playing the dark apprentice or Nolan's chaotic evil Joker (which I personally adore but then again, I'm not entirely normal).

 

Also, what really bugs me (and I think will be pretty important for you) is that during one of LS Jaesa convos, she tells you that there are overseers in Korriban academy posing as Sith but teaching the ways of Light (aka false Sith no matter how you look at that) and when finds out that one of more brutal Sith Lords kills them, your own character appears to be extremely sad and on the verge of crying. While you don't actually see it outside of this one romance, your SITH WARRIOR is made out to be a Jedi infiltrator who's bent on completely reform the empire and make it into centralized republic.

 

It's disappointing that you're unable to obtain proper apprentice who is more level-headed and values power over random killing (which is how I envision LS Sith, thus I hated when I had to kill Malgus cause his idea for the empire is pretty awesome) and the truth is that even though I originally wanted to go LS, seeing LS Jaesa convos made me change my mind since I wouldn't be able to immerse myself knowing that my character is more of a Jedi rather than Sith with no desire for random overkill. It's pretty stupid that the game takes your LS decisions and treats it not like you simply don't kill everything because it's unnecessary and people might have their uses but rather that your oh so benevolent leader who wil work for peace and galaxy-wide prosperity. SW story is amazing and I love it but this thing right here is bad writing.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of those conversations, at least based on my 50 Light side SW in beta.

 

 

I didn't see my warrior or Jaesa as some sort of covert Jedi trying to destroy the empire, but I did see what we were doing as a kind of reformist movement. These are two very important distinctions. Your character is still a loyal servant of the empire, and still takes pride in being Sith....however he/she notices flaws in the political/philosophical structure and wishes to add some light, not to destroy the empire, but to strengthen it. In many ways it's still very Sith, depending on how you interpret their code.

 

I think it's very important to recognize the distinction between reformist/revolutionary and an infiltrator.

 

[EasymodeX]

The thing that pisses me off is that any "LS" related action in that piece of the story is characterized as "BRINGING THE LIGHT TO THE EMPIRE" -- as an external "lightside injection", rather than a goal-driven "TO MAKE THE EMPIRE STRONGER, MORE STABLE". You could even Revanite-it in that aspect, and I would be fine with it. E.g. using the 'light side' as a tool for a stronger empire.

 

The way the story/dialogue works, it's like you're "making it lighter" just because "lightside is good", which is a bunch of ********.

[Gannan]

I too am neutral, and was going to use diplomacy for gear. I was barely LS1 when I got Jaesa, and now I feel like I've ruined my entire story.

 

I keep thinking of that line form Austin Powers when Dr. Evil says "You're quasi-evil. You're semi-evil. You're like the diet coke of evil. Just one calorie...not evil enough!"

 

And because of that, I have a traitor on board.

[gibmachine]

I disagree with your interpretation of those conversations, at least based on my 50 Light side SW in beta.

 

 

I didn't see my warrior or Jaesa as some sort of covert Jedi trying to destroy the empire, but I did see what we were doing as a kind of reformist movement. These are two very important distinctions. Your character is still a loyal servant of the empire, and still takes pride in being Sith....however he/she notices flaws in the political/philosophical structure and wishes to add some light, not to destroy the empire, but to strengthen it. In many ways it's still very Sith, depending on how you interpret their code.

 

I think it's very important to recognize the distinction between reformist/revolutionary and an infiltrator.

Sith =/= Jedi. You may have Light tendencies as Sith but it comes to whether or not you are ruthless or allow yourself to show mercy etc. There was this guy Darth Vectivus who was a Sith but never desired conquest so he kept to himself and died peacefully with his family. But he was a Sith and he showed it as a ghost when he was attempting to corrupt some lady (more about in the link I provided).

 

SW's LS storyline is actually matching and I have no problem with it but what happens during LS Jaesa convos is disturbing.

 

 

Reforming the empire is as valid purpose as any but you can't be a Sith and mourn over the loss of overseer who preaches the way of Light. You can have Light tendencies and be Sith but can't be Sith and accept teachers on Korriban spreading the Light ways which are contradictory to everything Sith stands for. Hell, you can't be Sith, learn about "Sith who turn away from the dark side" and do your best to ally with them. Current LS Jaesa substory does that. Opposing the empire ways and striving to reform it so it becomes "better" (subject to interpretation) by installing some Light tendencies is ok but not in a way in which the game presents it - turning away from the dark side. Sith = dark side. If you turn away from it, you're no longer Sith. Meh, Jaesa even asks if she can break the role and speak as a Jedi. You DON'T ally yourself with the Jedi as Sith. You can manipulate them, use them in order to achieve your own goals, but you don't ally with them. Hence, I find the entire LS Jaesa substory extremely contradictory to what SW stands for. Even if he's LS.

 

 

The thing that pisses me off is that any "LS" related action in that piece of the story is characterized as "BRINGING THE LIGHT TO THE EMPIRE" -- as an external "lightside injection", rather than a goal-driven "TO MAKE THE EMPIRE STRONGER, MORE STABLE". You could even Revanite-it in that aspect, and I would be fine with it. E.g. using the 'light side' as a tool for a stronger empire.

 

The way the story/dialogue works, it's like you're "making it lighter" just because "lightside is good", which is a bunch of ********.

 

This is what I'm talking about. Revanites are doing it right. The even say that they will never betray the empire but by following Revan's example and accepting both sides of the equation, they actually make the empire stronger. They don't seek to "overthrow" dark side with light but are using light to make up for empire lacking in some aspects.

 

 

So is Malgus, even though he's more about active and cetralized society which accepts those who long for conquest but nevetheless, him proposing that instead of wiping out Kaleesh on Ilum, we challenge them and make them serve honorably is also showing how he views things

 

 

That's how empire LS story should look like. Not hippie vision of empire becoming universal utopia (which Ashara and LS Jaesa seem to hope for).

Edited January 24, 2012 by gibmachine

[Kyle_Lin]

Jaesa is a complete design failure for those, who are not bloodthirsty maniacs, but want to make the Empire stronger.

 

 

Thana Vesh would have been a hundred times better companion hands down.

 

Edited January 24, 2012 by Kyle_Lin

[miliways]

If she's Light Side, you need a justification for why she would join you and the Empire. I don't see it as "We should overthrow the empire, they're bad guys", its more "We need to change the empire from within to be less pointlessly evil and more productive." It doesn't necessarily mean she wants to end the empire. She's a part of it.

 

Dark Side Jaesa is a crazy mass murderer, but I like that about her I was waiting for when I would get a companion who doesn't hate my extreme Dark Side... I'm a Sith Warrior for crying out loud! Murdering younglings is par for the course! I love that she delights in my kill anything that gets in my way attitude. If you want someone who can appreciate a little evil, especially in the name of the Empire, but doesn't like super evil things and doesn't like going against the empire, look no further: Quinn. Quinn has exactly that attitude. Each companion needs to have a different outlook, or else you'll have some people have all their companions be their best friend and other people will have a very hard time getting reputation, and have to resort to just gifts gifts gifts.

 

That said, she's kinda got to be crazy evil as part of her story. The whole thing is that she was a Jedi, trained from birth to be peaceful and calm and level-headed and balanced and all that stuff.

 

 

Her fall from grace was the entire focus of the 2nd chapter of the sith warrior. It was your grand quest. She had to be driven to completely reject her entire beliefs in order to be corrupted to the Dark Side. The only way to get her to accept the Dark Side was to completely shatter her faith in the jedi code, casting doubt wouldn't have been enough. So you push her and you push her, you drive her master mad and you show her the potential for evil and deceit in the jedi and she has a major crisis of faith. She's left with nothing, her life means nothing. The only purpose she sees now is the strength of the dark side. I think DS Jaesa being sadistic is actually perfectly reasonable and fits the story. Comments from her like "Master, can we kill something again? I'm starting to get jittery... I think I'm going through withdrawl" are amazing They show how truly she has changed, and how her entire psychology has been destroyed by corrupting her to the dark side.

 

[miliways]

Jaesa is a complete design failure for those, who are not bloodthirsty maniacs, but want to make the Empire stronger.

 

I like her

Edited January 24, 2012 by miliways

[AJediKnight]

I simply do not know what to do about this.

 

Darksided Jaesa is a loyalist to the Empire, and, what's more, I do feel like it is the natural conclusion to chapter one -- that she becomes your apprentice, and turns to the darkside. I never even entertained the idea of 'reforming the Empire' until LS Jaesa dumped it into my lap, and then, suddenly, there is my character, awkwardly claiming to 'believe in the light' and urging Jaesa to 'seek others who walk the light path.'

 

Having said that, I feel like this is yet another example of how Bioware simply does not understand the force -- that the 'dark' side is as much about passion (passion that can even be motivated through empathy and genuine love) as it is about destruction. Just because my Sith isn't one minor step up from a serial killer doesn't mean she isn't a practitioner of the dark arts, or doesn't believe in the entirety of what the Empire is. She's just a plotter; a thinker. She bides her time, and keeps all avenues for progress open. In many ways, she's closer to Sidious than Vader -- Sidious who attacked from every angle, and used kindness and effection as viable weapons in his greater goals of conquest.

 

The problem in this is that both Jaesa's are wrong for me.

 

1) LS Jaesa is more level-headed, and that's good. However, she's a psuedo-Jedi, and actually believes we're on a quest of reformation. What's more, she forces my character to act in ways I don't agree with, and is an open traitor to the Empire. Whatever this future is that lightsided Jaesa believes in, it's something my own character would fight to prevent.

 

2) DS Jaesa is a loyalist to the Empire, and that's also good. However, she's like a 16-year-old on a bender when it comes to the darkside, and that's not what my character is like at all. I'm not interested in overt displays of evil if they serve no purpose -- I commit evil acts all the time, but I don't do them for no reason. Darkside Jaesa is like some vicious harpy, leering over everything I do and waiting to leap onto the bloody scraps. This is not an apprentice I would train -- ever.

 

Anyone else out there who has been in this boat? And what direction did you end up going in to reconcile this issue? Thanks also to those who posted already.

Edited January 24, 2012 by AJediKnight

[miliways]

First: So your Jaesa isn't dark side. Then she's a jedi, and she's good, and she has friends and family in the republic. She's not going to just forget about them overnight. She's not suddenly going to be okay with killing republicans, and at times, she may betray the empire to help republicans. This seems PERFECTLY NATURAL to me. I'm not sure what you're expecting.

 

She's not trying to overthrow the empire, as we said, merely reform it from within, try to change it to be a little better. If you're light side, you should agree. The idea is that the empire will be better because of it.

 

What to do about it?

 

A ) If you don't like light side jaesa, don't bring her. OMG! You have the choice to leave her on your ship. You can even pretend that you stopped bringing her along. You have other companions, and you can only bring one. I have plenty of companions that don't agree with my character's philosophy, so I just leave them on my ship to do work.

 

B ) If you're getting in character and roleplaying, thats great! But the nature of a video game is that they can only pre-program so many possibilities. This is inevitably going to clash with your own creativity. What do you do? The same way you always roleplay: YOU PRETEND.

 

Chose something in dialogue, but you don't agree with what your character said? Pretend they said something different. /say what you WOULD have said as soon as the conversation is over. Or just keep it to yourself.

 

Its a videogame. Nobody's going to know if your character once said "I hate the empire", it doesn't matter. If you want to roleplay that your character is completely loyalist, go right on ahead! Pick whatever dialogue choices seem the closest to what you want to say, and when she says something wrong just talk over her yourself and say what you want to say.

 

For instance, my sith pureblood inquisitor alt is a slave as part of the intro story. It explains why you're kinda looked down upon, expected to fail, and it makes sense if you're any species but sith. But as a sith, I didn't like this story. They explain it anyways by saying you had some master who fell out of favor so you were sold to slavery, but eh. So? What did I do? Complain on the forums that I wasn't allowed to make a sith pureblood without being a slave?

 

No. I merely stated that my story is different. I didn't even have to do anything, I just declared it to myself. Nobody knows. I get off the first planet and it isn't mentioned again, and I move on with my life. Every now and then a dialogue choice comes up that references the slavery, and I just won't pick it. Or, if I have to pick it, then I'll pretend he just said "I can imagine that is difficult" instead of "I know how difficult that is"

 

Use your imagination! Its good for ya

[gibmachine]

Anyone else out there who has been in this boat? And what direction did you end up going in to reconcile this issue? Thanks also to those who posted already.

 

I love this post as it's pretty much what I was thinking when going through prologue and act 1. Even though I went strictly DS when choices ocurred, every other choice was more than mindless killing spree.

 

Then came Jaesa.

 

Now, I love me some blind fury and reckless carnage from time to time but I also like to think of my character as someone who does those kind of things when it's necessary (like when he gets his hands on his enemies and so on) while being more level-headed for the rest of the time. immersion at its fullest. Since I consider my companions part of that immersion as well, I was pretty disappointed with how opposite and extreme are 2 paths offered in Jaesa's story. While we could have actual dark apprentice whom we can guide to mastery over the dark side, passing on various experiences and secrets we got to learn the hard way, we ended up with either a psycho or a goodie 2 shoes. And while psycho is fine with me, it's nice to have variety in a long run.

 

Goodie 2 shoes however, is not, in any way, ok with me since that's not what Sith do. If I wanted that perfect superhero story, I'd roll a Jedi Knight and be exemplary master who puts Yoda to shame. I'm not. I'm Sith. And if I want my character to have light tendencies, it's only so that the empire I fight for can be stronger. If sparing an enemy's life can benefit the empire, I'll do it but that's not out of goodness of my own heart but so that greater goal can be achieved. That's what I'd pass to my apprentice if I discovered some light to my character. Not some out of the blue crap about allying with overseers who teach the ways of light or reforming the empire so it becomesrepublic 2.0.

 

Fact is that it was because of Jaesa that I made the decision to go dark. Her DS resembles my vision of my character more than her LS. Since she was to be my companion of choice (Broonmark would be if he didn't look... strange - I'd love if he was a wampa), I wanted her to be more than just dps machine I never have to interact with. I wanted her to be my apprentice from the start so when I got to know what will she be like when I go LS, my mind was set and I came to terms with my character being rational only when not having to choose between showing how benevolent he is or murdering entire room of bystanders who pose no threat whatsoever.

 

I understand that's only companion story and it pales in comparison with character's actual story but there really should be more to master - apprentice thing than such extreme polarity.

 

If you're getting in character and roleplaying, thats great! But the nature of a video game is that they can only pre-program so many possibilities. This is inevitably going to clash with your own creativity. What do you do? The same way you always roleplay: YOU PRETEND.

 

Problem is you can't pretend when you're presented with 2 completely opposite choices with no middle ground between them. Here's the example:

 

You are told to kill some extremely dangerous figure. He could threaten your entire plan and compromise it, given some time. You get to him, fight and defeat him. Suddenly you see that in the next room, there some civillian technicians who watched the whole thing. You have to choose

 

1. LS - you kill (for the sake of argument, ingame it would be to spare him but promise to disappear) your enemy and let civillians go so they can share what happened with everyone they want to

 

2. DS - you kill your enemy and then slaughter civillians

 

Now imagine how cool it would be to have third option. For example:

 

3. Neutral - either kill or send the enemy for questioning (that's irrelevant) but recruit civillians to your cause. Tell them to gather their families and send them to Dromund Kaas where they would be valuable asset to the empire (of course we assume they wouldn't be some sort of slaves to build statues but actual technicians utilizing their talents and working in good conditions)

 

That's what missing. And that's what also would greatly benefit if implemented into LS Jaesa story. Like I said, she's my companon of choice. I can't pretend that she's different that she is. I can't leave her on the ship and think to myself what great apprentice I have while running around with Pierce or whoever isn't crafting.

 

I don't know what it's like on republic but empire LS choices are basically not about the choice actually benefiting the empire or showing rational thinking but more like coming from the goodness of your own heart. Which while possibly present for the empire, is more rare than for the republic (if we stick to archetypes).

Edited January 24, 2012 by gibmachine

[AJediKnight]

I don't know what it's like on republic but empire LS choices are basically not about the choice actually benefiting the empire or showing rational thinking but more like coming from the goodness of your own heart. Which while possibly present for the empire, is more rare than for the republic (if we stick to archetypes).

 

The problem is, so many of the darkside choices are just complete and utter crap. Like, for example, one quest that comes to mind is the one late in Nar Shaddaa when you are tasked by a Hutt and an Imperial Intelligence officer to infiltrate a kind of network hub and see what's going wrong inside. Upon entering, you discover an NPC who has tapped into the network. You can leave him alive, at which point he will feed the Empire a constant stream of valuable information (LS)... or you can kill him because... I don't know (DS)...

 

And so many of the DS choices are like that -- they are just asinine and incredibly stupid. I understand that the darkside is a power based on emotions, but that doesn't mean pracitioners need to be on some kind of constant, totally-amoral crusade of bloodletting in order to be strong in the force. Our objectives -- control, power, and, ultimately, galactic peace through subjegation -- should always be front and center. If evil comes, it should come as a direct result of the fastest path to those objectives.

 

And that's what Bioware doesn't seem to understand. They looked at the Sith in the films and make the most basic (and wrong) assumption of all -- THE SITH ARE EVVVVILLLLLLL. But the Sith aren't evil -- their methods are. It is an important distinction, but one that is made throughout the canon. Hell, even Yoda points it out. Luke: "Is the darkside stronger?" Yoda: "No! No. Quicker, easier, more seductive." The darkside is about passion, but it's also about expediency -- the route of least resistance to the objective. And that is where the evil comes into play.

 

But if evil was the sole objective of every cliche Sith in Star Wars, then the Sith Empire could never function -- it would fall apart immediately. Because if every Sith's action was wholly self-serving and focused entirely on random, wanton violence, then there could be no Empire. It'd be a fairy tale.

 

And thus, darkside Jaesa is symptomatic of a larger problem -- Bioware's inexplicable obsession with evil rather than the core pillars of the darkside; emotion and speed. I want a dark apprentice, but gosh darn it, darkside Jaesa is the "Id" come to life -- she's an almost inconceivable incarnation of carnal whims. Lightside Jaesa is an oblivious zealot, and darkside Jaesa is some otherworldly vampire, and it's Bioware's fault that we have to pick between the two.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AJediKnight

[gibmachine]

And thus, darkside Jaesa is symptomatic of a larger problem -- Bioware's inexplicable obsession with evil rather than the core pillars of the darkside; emotion and speed. I want a dark apprentice, but gosh darn it, darkside Jaesa is the "Id" come to life -- she's an almost inconceivable incarnation of carnal whims. Lightside Jaesa is an oblivious zealot, and darkside Jaesa is some otherworldly vampire, and it's Bioware's fault that we have to pick between the two.

 

If the case of picking between 2 extremes was only for Jaesa, I'd be fine with that, but like you say, it's troubling that we have to make these kinds of decisions half of the time when we're presented with LS / DS choice. Either go with what you yourself would do and lose points or gain points but via forced decision.

 

That's why I'm looking forward to neutral allignment which would let progress however we like from the very beginning and allow its own set of perks (bigger task) or expanding current points cap which would allow us to reach tier 5 and then do as we please with our choices (smaller task). I'm fairly sure that they said something about adding it somewhere along the line. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Edited January 25, 2012 by gibmachine

[MRCHalifax]

It makes sense to me.

 

LS Jaesa is the same person that she was before she went over to the Sith - she just realizes the flaws of the Jedi, and sees greater opportunity to do good among the Sith than she does the Jedi. She is a good, idealistic person. She is not going to sit by passively and not try to stop evil - she's just going to take a longer, smarter view than the average Jedi.

 

DS Jaesa is insane. I mean that in the most literal possible way - in falling to the Dark Side, her sanity snaps. You break her mind. And then you hook her up with the most addictive drug in the galaxy, the Dark Side of the Force. And keep in mind, even though she's now a Evil Cloud Cockoo Lander, she's still only about par for the course in terms of evil and insanity among the Sith. Nice job breaking it, hero.

 

So basically, your choice is an idealistic but practical Jedi, or an ax-crazy psychopath Sith. Anything else is unfortunately not her character.

[Kyle_Lin]

The problem is, so many of the darkside choices are just complete and utter crap. Like, for example, one quest that comes to mind is the one late in Nar Shaddaa when you are tasked by a Hutt and an Imperial Intelligence officer to infiltrate a kind of network hub and see what's going wrong inside. Upon entering, you discover an NPC who has tapped into the network. You can leave him alive, at which point he will feed the Empire a constant stream of valuable information (LS)... or you can kill him because... I don't know (DS)...

 

And so many of the DS choices are like that -- they are just asinine and incredibly stupid. I understand that the darkside is a power based on emotions, but that doesn't mean pracitioners need to be on some kind of constant, totally-amoral crusade of bloodletting in order to be strong in the force. Our objectives -- control, power, and, ultimately, galactic peace through subjegation -- should always be front and center. If evil comes, it should come as a direct result of the fastest path to those objectives.

 

And that's what Bioware doesn't seem to understand. They looked at the Sith in the films and make the most basic (and wrong) assumption of all -- THE SITH ARE EVVVVILLLLLLL. But the Sith aren't evil -- their methods are. It is an important distinction, but one that is made throughout the canon. Hell, even Yoda points it out. Luke: "Is the darkside stronger?" Yoda: "No! No. Quicker, easier, more seductive." The darkside is about passion, but it's also about expediency -- the route of least resistance to the objective. And that is where the evil comes into play.

 

But if evil was the sole objective of every cliche Sith in Star Wars, then the Sith Empire could never function -- it would fall apart immediately. Because if every Sith's action was wholly self-serving and focused entirely on random, wanton violence, then there could be no Empire. It'd be a fairy tale.

 

And thus, darkside Jaesa is symptomatic of a larger problem -- Bioware's inexplicable obsession with evil rather than the core pillars of the darkside; emotion and speed. I want a dark apprentice, but gosh darn it, darkside Jaesa is the "Id" come to life -- she's an almost inconceivable incarnation of carnal whims. Lightside Jaesa is an oblivious zealot, and darkside Jaesa is some otherworldly vampire, and it's Bioware's fault that we have to pick between the two.

 

Each of the words are a masterpiece here and I really hope many of the Bioware storytellers/designers will read it.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kyle_Lin

[Sanctitty]

The fallacy here is that the empire is a dark side entity and any form of light side choices/etc. is complete and total subversion.

 

It isn't.

 

Jaesa does not think you are an enemy of the empire. The light side choices you are given are generally about rational thought or compassion. Dark side is all about blind hatred and killing everything you can. Something to be said for each, but if you DO pick light side choices or even just HALF lightside choices it could be said you are trying to reform the empire. Light side teaching is all about reason winning over passion, so to use the example given by a previous poster, keeping the slicer dude alive is the RATIONAL thing to do. Killing him is giving into the passion/rage/whatever.

 

Another angle to look at is the developers have to bake every decision you make down into a completely black-and-white morality structure, which will clearly be lacking.

 

If it really bothers you that much you can convince yourself that your character is just lying to her to keep her in line.

 

Jaesa's storyline is 100,000% better than the travesty of how they did Ashara. AND she spouts jedi teaching all the damned time even if your sith is 100 percent dark side. I swear if I didn't have a fixation on her lips I'd stable her and never use her again.

[AJediKnight]

The fallacy here is that the empire is a dark side entity and any form of light side choices/etc. is complete and total subversion.

 

It isn't.

 

Jaesa does not think you are an enemy of the empire. The light side choices you are given are generally about rational thought or compassion. Dark side is all about blind hatred and killing everything you can. Something to be said for each, but if you DO pick light side choices or even just HALF lightside choices it could be said you are trying to reform the empire. Light side teaching is all about reason winning over passion, so to use the example given by a previous poster, keeping the slicer dude alive is the RATIONAL thing to do. Killing him is giving into the passion/rage/whatever.

 

But we have to make a distinction between pragmatism and the force here, even if Bioware doesn't. A rational decision need not involve the force at all -- in the instance we're talking about, my motivation to spare the slicer should have everything to do with assisting the Empire (which, it could be argued, serves my darkside goals regardless -- I am A) enhancing my prestige withing the Empire, and B) assisting in strengthening the Empire itself, which, as any Sith worth his or her salt, I have amibitions of one day ruling).

 

Killing the slicer, on the other hand, displays a complete disregard for all reason. And, again, I'm not so much certain that that's an indication of darkness as it is stupidity, and an utter and complete lack of foresight on the part of my character. In the very least, it reduces the character a kind of animalistic buffoon only interested in slaughter. At the worst, the character is betraying not only the Empire, but their own best interests.

 

I choose not to defend Bioware when it comes to the darkside. They've been on this silly, 'DAH DARKSIDE IS ABOUT KICKIN' DEM PUPPIES' bend since the days of KotOR, and here were are nearly a decade later, and they appear to have no better understanding of the force as a whole. As explained in the core canon, the darkside isn't just about evil; it is about emotional attachment of any sort. Good, strong emotions like love and devotion are still, technically, darksided, even if they have a 'light' tilt to them.

 

What's more, the current alignment system makes absolutely zero allowment for any kind of proactive plotting on the part of our characters. A perfect example would be the decision to spare Overseer Tremmel on Korriban. Now, yes, Baras ordered me to kill Tremmel, but what if I'm a smart Sith who recognizes that Tremmel -- while certainly not my match with the force -- is an excellent strategist, and could be useful one day if called upon? When viewed in this manner, the decision to spare him is hardly light -- it is but a small part of my master plan to overthrow Baras; a plan which will require many allies spread across the galaxy.

 

But is that the case in TOR? Absolutely not. In TOR, if I spare Tremmel, I'm some bleeding heart who doesn't understand the Sith Code, and clearly would have been better off as a Jedi. This is the real peril of us being force-fed a story like this, particularly when it comes from writers who clearly took a passing glance at Star Wars lore, decided that the darkside revolved around a singular objective -- evil for evil's sake, and nothing else -- and ran with it. But I'm telling you that rampant destruction has much less to do with being an adept Sith than it does with being a lunatic. The best Sith are planners, thinkers, and individuals who know how to call upon a well-placed ally. That doesn't make them lightsided -- it makes them smart.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Sanctitty]

But we have to make a distinction between pragmatism and the force here, even if Bioware doesn't.

 

I disagree.

 

You could easily say that the very definition of light and dark side choices is pragmatism.

[AJediKnight]

I disagree.

 

You could easily say that the very definition of light and dark side choices is pragmatism.

 

A black and white morality system -- where act A is 'good,' but act B is a 'no-no' -- does not equate to the force, and never has. That is why the dark side is tied more to emotional output than to set-in-stone actions. Murder is a bad act, but what if you kill to save, or kill to defend, or even kill for (what you believe to be) a righteous cause? It's easy to sit back and wash our hands of a situation and be like 'oh, well that's evil,' but the force is more concerned with attachment/detachment than it is about doing a body count and then pointing fingers. One man's murder is another man's justice, and the force has much more to do with a person's emotional state during the act than the act itself.

 

What if Anakin had been told that there was a massive bomb at the center of Coruscant that would explode if he didn't murder the younglings? Yes this is a silly situation, but it demonstrates a point -- Anakin's mental state during the killings was far more important than the killings themselves in determining whether the act was light/dark.

 

This is why the Jedi wear kid gloves while dealing with the force -- why seemingly 'everything' leads to the darkside. Because one questionable act, while it might not be truly dark, could conceivably lead to others that are. Anakin being sad about leaving his mom in Ep. I probably wasn't all that strongly darksided -- but when it led to an obsession by the time of his teenage years that ultimately culminated in the slaughter of the sand people, then we can begin to appreciate the initial hesitancy of the council regarding his entry into the Order.

 

The problem with the morality system in TOR is that it makes no account for the long term ramifications -- good or bad -- of a decision. Every single choice results in an immediate morality swing, often with ridiculous implications with regards to what Bioware apparently believes is light or dark. Again, what if I saved Tremmel because I was thinking about how he would help me slaughter Baras? Is that a lightsided move? Is 'saving a life' good if I am plotting to utilize the person in a future coldblooded murder? Therein lies the flaw of this system -- instantaneous, absolute and utterly farcical 'judgement' is rendered without any consideration being given for ulterior motives.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AJediKnight

[SalsaDMA]

But if evil was the sole objective of every cliche Sith in Star Wars, then the Sith Empire could never function -- it would fall apart immediately. Because if every Sith's action was wholly self-serving and focused entirely on random, wanton violence, then there could be no Empire. It'd be a fairy tale.

 

Actually, that was what happened to the Rakata, as I recall from KoTor. They WERE basicly this evil bunch that focused on the darkside and was succesfull enough to conquer everything they found. In the end, whenthey didn't have anything to fight but themselves, they literally imploded.

 

So Bioware is most likely fully aware of the problem with darkside sith if they ever should manage to be 'proper' succesfull, as illustrated by the history of the Rakata. So ironically, what keeps the empire alive while it's ruled by darkside sith, is that the republic is strong enough to fight back.

 

Unless the empire reforms, which seems to be the goal of lightside sith, the empire is doomed either way. Either it will eventually loose to the republic, or it will win over the republic and then consume itself like the rakata did before them with the 'infinite empire'.

In either case it would spell doom.

 

Personally, I would have liked to have my lightside sith warrior be given the option of being a better person than he actually is allowed to (although, the biggest problem seems to come from generic quests not catering at all the fact that you may be a lightside sith) and propogate even more for changes towards the light int he empire than currently is possible...

 

Oh.. And I would have loved to have been given the option of giving the dreadlords a good beating to teach them some humility after they tried using their 'instill fear' crap on my character after I had freed them (I don't care I resisted it, I still wanted to show them not to just assault people that just helped them and they seemed to be a bit beyond subtleties). Which reminds me... Even though I know that quest was a generic faction quest and not a class quest, I felt it was silly that the fact that I was supposed to be the wrath was ignored. Considered the reaction of the assassins when I told them just earlier on the same planet, I would have thought it would have been something in mind that would be relevant.