I feel that concealment operatives need a re-balance.

[Tycius]

I currently play a Imperial operative under the concealment spec. I have many times played through a warzone with the feeling that everyone around me is furious, not simply by my skill, but because of my class.

 

I'm not going to be modest, I'm a experienced PvP player of many MMO's, and that skill I believe has translated well into SWTOR. Despite this, when playing in Warzones (and indeed, in world PvP) I cannot feel that my success is less to do with professional play, than the simply over-sharp glass cannon that I play. There have been instances where I have killed players before they get out of a stun lock. There have been instances where I have one shot players at half health. A while back, I and a PvP un-experienced random BH took down a Jedi Sage and Guardian in world PvP, who were both 5-6 levels above us, three times. Yesterday I took down a team of the same composition (same classes, different players), solo; in less than 12 seconds.

 

I cannot help but conclude, that despite the intended nature of this spec, it grants a heavy advantage against any other class, and by comparison to other classes; is simply to easy to play.

 

So I did research, I asked guild members, perused the forums, compared damage outputs, dueled with other PvP players. The results supported my conclusion. I understand the concept that this spec is intended to do massive (and often inconsistent) burst damage, but that mechanic has been presented in such a way that has given an unfair advantage to those that play it.

 

Humbly, I suggest that the burst damage output of the Concealment and Scrapper tree specialisations are reduced, and perhaps something small is added elsewhere to allow it to continue to be a viable class.

 

PS: I wasn't sure if this was more appropriate for the "PvP" or "Suggestion Box" forum section. If I have placed it wrongly, I ask that an administrator be kind enough to move the topic, or inform me to re-post in the other section.

[Chiricahua]

2 things. Too many stuns, and uber melee critical attacks. This is nothing new. The melee spies in SWG were villified so much, that most players wouldn't invite them to instances in PUG groups, unless they knew them real well. Melee spies dispatched people in the Restuss space port all the time in like 2 seconds. Operative continues without a nerf the community will turn on them too. Oh yeah, they hated their ability to cloak and escape combat also. Edited January 20, 2012 by Chiricahua

[Evuke]

1. you're not an operative but nice try

 

2. they are designed to be a top 1vs1 burst dmg class, and they do that well, but the game is not about 1vs1, only wow kids think it is

 

3. any reductions to damage to the class will render it obsolete, because then you will have an assassin/shadow, a medium dps stealth class, but without the sustainability of the assassin/shadow (ie a gimped class)

[Tycius]

1. you're not an operative but nice try

 

2. they are designed to be a top 1vs1 burst dmg class, and they do that well, but the game is not about 1vs1, only wow kids think it is

 

3. any reductions to damage to the class will render it obsolete, because then you will have an assassin/shadow, a medium dps stealth class, but without the sustainability of the assassin/shadow (ie a gimped class)

 

1. I am an operative. Elliot of Ajunta Paul. Do not be so quick as to disbelieve that a player can want a better overall gaming experience, rather than being selfishly greedy with granted power.

 

2. I recognise this, but when that 1v1 is powerful to the extent that they can take down groups with less assistance than any other class, it becomes a problem.

 

3. Once again, I understand this, but burst damage can still exist, it just doesn't need to be so potent. As I suggested, perhaps they could be granted an advantage elsewhere to make up for a reduction of damage; if deemed necessary.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Tycius

[Lunaxtic]

Now I myself have died to countless ops, and scoundrels, coming from both sides. There have been times when I had cds up and both of them was butter and I was the hot *** knife. Your post almost makes me feel like your more or less one of the ppl getting *** ***** by them and complaining, than someone that plays the job and really(I mean really) asking for it to be nerfed. If you remove any of their mechanics, you might as well swing the nerf bat at every other job,cause your only going to make them less of what they are intended to be. They will be left to only healing, which from I've read needs some buffing. Give it break, I hate dying to those mfers, but damn it if I do not enjoying killing them more.

Oh and if you really, really, are playing one and really think you need to be nerfed, reroll, and you did the job yourself. No need involving BW. Fixed.

[Tycius]

Now I myself have died to countless ops, and scoundrels, coming from both sides. There have been times when I had cds up and both of them was butter and I was the hot *** knife. Your post almost makes me feel like your more or less one of the ppl getting *** ***** by them and complaining, than someone that plays the job and really(I mean really) asking for it to be nerfed. If you remove any of their mechanics, you might as well swing the nerf bat at every other job,cause your only going to make them less of what they are intended to be. They will be left to only healing, which from I've read needs some buffing. Give it break, I hate dying to those mfers, but damn it if I do not enjoying killing them more.

Oh and if you really, really, are playing one and really think you need to be nerfed, reroll, and you did the job yourself. No need involving BW. Fixed.

 

I am re-rolling, sort of, soon as I hit 50, I'm going heals spec.

 

Once again, I understand that their mechanic is supposed to be burst damage and powerful mele control, but there can be such a thing of "too much of a good thing". They will still be viable if the damage is reduced, they just will not be as unbelievably easy.

 

This is bothering me, if anyone disbelieves that I am an operative, feel free to jump onto Ajunta Paul (West Coast RP-PVP) and send me (Elliot) a message or a mail. I will happily confirm my identity.

[Feedori]

Frankly, I sorta thought Operatives needed rebalanced prior to the recent patch. While I was generally able to hold my own against any other class, Operatives and their Republic equivalent would always kill me in 4-5 seconds.

 

However, with the new patch out and all the level 50 operatives out of the picture, none of my toons have any issues with them any more. Yes, I will still die by their hand sometimes, but it usually a decent fight now. I have a chance to escape if my defenses are available or at least fight back.

 

I don't play my level 50 character any more so I don't know how it is in the level 50 warzones, but operatives are not the undisputed king of < 50.

[ImURmaster]

Is a class to let bad players feel good.

 

Stick your average face-rolling OP/scoundrel on any other melee class and they get wtfpwn. Its broken and unfortunately I doubt they will fix it. Look at every other "rogue" style class in MMOs and they have the same issues. I have no idea why game designers let ganking classes be so potent, but it is what it is. Learn to live with it, or roll one for yourself.

Edited January 20, 2012 by ImURmaster

[bodatious]

1. you're not an operative but nice try

 

2. they are designed to be a top 1vs1 burst dmg class, and they do that well, but the game is not about 1vs1, only wow kids think it is

 

3. any reductions to damage to the class will render it obsolete, because then you will have an assassin/shadow, a medium dps stealth class, but without the sustainability of the assassin/shadow (ie a gimped class)

 

2. your right. a game that cares about balanced 1v1 would give medals for solo kills or track things like ....solo kills.

 

3. buff thier sustained while nerfing thier burst. why would that be hard? Its not like they are excedingly squishy or anything. They can stand to stay in the fray for a few more seconds than they do now.

[Schwartz]

First they will assess the impact that the biochem change has on pvp dmg

 

Then they will make necessary class adjustments

 

I suspect that both the Op and Scoundrel classes will experience some kind of adjustment as soon as it is determined that the biochem skill was not the sole root of the problem

[Nizel]

OP is not even level 50 yet and is calling for nerfs to his alleged main class.

 

What people seem to not understand is that from a top down perspective, the classes ARE balanced for the most part. You claim to have played in beta, and if that is true, then you no doubt were confronted with 50's in BM gear, specifically a tank and healer combination with guard applied, and the tank competently using taunts, and intercede/guardian leap to mitigate massive amounts of incoming damage.

 

In a pvp environment, this combination is unstoppable, and without high burst classes such as an operative, sniper, and assassin, they would walk all over everyone in matches.

 

I think you need to spend more time with the class, and re-evaluate your position when everyone is sitting in equal gear. When that tank has 23-25k HP, your opener (especially post biochem, and consumable expertise stacking nerfs) shrugs off your 4-5k opener, you will eat those words, and be back crying about how its impossible to kill a tank with a pocket healer.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that most people are bad at pvp, they are slow to react, they make poor decisions, and they don't know how to counter an operative/scoundrel.

 

If you blew your cc breaker on an 8 second stun, and then got faceplanted and sat there for three seconds while the operative has his way with you. This describes you. Thats a poor decision.

[Tycius]

Had not considered that, thank you for your contribution Nizel.

[Ahhmyface]

OP is not even level 50 yet and is calling for nerfs to his alleged main class.

 

What people seem to not understand is that from a top down perspective, the classes ARE balanced for the most part. You claim to have played in beta, and if that is true, then you no doubt were confronted with 50's in BM gear, specifically a tank and healer combination with guard applied, and the tank competently using taunts, and intercede/guardian leap to mitigate massive amounts of incoming damage.

 

In a pvp environment, this combination is unstoppable, and without high burst classes such as an operative, sniper, and assassin, they would walk all over everyone in matches.

 

I think you need to spend more time with the class, and re-evaluate your position when everyone is sitting in equal gear. When that tank has 23-25k HP, your opener (especially post biochem, and consumable expertise stacking nerfs) shrugs off your 4-5k opener, you will eat those words, and be back crying about how its impossible to kill a tank with a pocket healer.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that most people are bad at pvp, they are slow to react, they make poor decisions, and they don't know how to counter an operative/scoundrel.

 

If you blew your cc breaker on an 8 second stun, and then got faceplanted and sat there for three seconds while the operative has his way with you. This describes you. Thats a poor decision.

 

There was no battlemaster gear in beta. At least, not before the final build. And certainly nobody had time to grind to valor 60. Tanks also don't have 23-25k hp, but it's no surprise you're a liar, since you are trying to convince people that you should be allowed to insta-**** them with 4 buttons 2 out of 3 spawns, and usually win the other third just by strafing. This isn't skill, but I don't expect you to care. So I'll just hope you have a bad day.

[chadicus]

soon as I hit 50,

 

Things are different in the 50s bracket now. Most people will have 400-500 expertise. I am not saying operatives are OP or UP. I am saying your perspective may change when a force user/sniper jettisons you to the respawn area in 4-5 seconds. When you don't crit on all your attacks and someone has 65-70% of their health after hiddenstrike filled their resolve bar you will see what I mean.

[Tycius]

Just realised that people may think I'm low level. I'm not, I'm level 49 as of two minutes ago. I'm not someone playing the class for the first time.

 

But yes, I am starting to imagine it might be very different in the level 50 bracket. And much of what I believed has been called into question.

[Xinika]

Just realised that people may think I'm low level. I'm not, I'm level 49 as of two minutes ago. I'm not someone playing the class for the first time.

 

But yes, I am starting to imagine it might be very different in the level 50 bracket. And much of what I believed has been called into question.

 

It's no different at 50. They still insta-gib people in the same gear. Anyone defending this enjoys facerolling broken mechanics.

[Quesa]

I can see a place for a class/spec like a conceal-Op. People say they are good at taking down low-armor targets who are alone ... fine. However, they also excel taking down high armor targets because of the over-abundance of armor penetration in this game. This is something that WoW wrestled with because there was so much armor pen in the game that there was no real net affect from having high armor (tank or close range classes).

 

If Ops want to maintain that high burst on low armor targets, I don't have much of a problem with that however, they shouldn't be handed a flat 50% armor pen through acid blades.

 

Additionally, this scary trend and precedent BioWare is setting by combining secondary effects with high damage abilities (ie. Hidden Strike, Grav Round, Tracer .. etc) is going to cause increased havoc later in the game. There is no need for a stacking armor debuff on Grav/Tracer just as it's, to me, bad design precedent to give Ops a very hard hitting ability that has a hard CC through talent. At the very least, the knockdown should be JUST a knockdown or a heavy snare. At the very best, the Operative should have to choose between a hard CC or a hard hitting opener - not be gifted with both wrapped into one GDC.

 

/equipping flamesuit

 

Furthermore, there are some abilities that are being chained to make some objective based WZ encounters trivial. 2-3 people in Hutball can score in under 10 seconds with the use of pulls, sprints, interventions and shields. It's not that any single one of these abilities is ridiculous but the combination and short cooldowns of these abilities being used in an organized fashion can circumvent another teams organized defense.

 

Hutball furnaces also need to be looked at. They need to start doing a flat %/second of player HP instead of a fixed amount/second of which can't be mitigated or absorbed. I've watched too many teams simply walk through the furnaces with little more than 2-3k dmg being taken due to use of abilities and guard. One last thing about the furnaces. You should not be able to sprint accross one that is active. The use of a shield + sprint means an inquis will only take 1 tick, if that, of damage to his health pool. If one is active, you need to be slowed down to the speed of an in-combat ball carrier. They should be REAL obstacles, not something trivial to a a class or two due to abilities.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Quesa

[Sathid]

I do Wz's daily and it is far different than hitting a lvl 25,45,etc when you are 50 and you can really tell who has some gear and who does not.

When i hit a tank with a few BM gear (Yes there is a few on my server) it is barely a dent,sorcs and inquis are almost imposiible to do hardly any damage and due to the sheer amount of sorcs in almost every WZ because just about every Imp rolled one it is bubble's galore which makes it even more tough to do much.

 

Yes go lvl to the 50 bracket then come back,youl see,oh but your an imp on my server too so yah you and your buddys will win roughly 75% of the time due to your army of inquis and sorc's.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Sathid

[Ahhmyface]

It's no different at 50. They still insta-gib people in the same gear. Anyone defending this enjoys facerolling broken mechanics.

 

It's exactly the same at 50. 500 expertise = Instajib, Instajib, cc/breaker-narrow-loss... repeat.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Cstain]

This guy prolly isnt even this class. Someone who got pwned and is looking to try and fool people! Not on my watch. If anything OP's need a bufF!!!!

[Sathid]

It's exactly the same at 50. 500 expertise = Instajib, Instajib, cc/breaker-narrow-loss... repeat.

 

No it is not.

[Tycius]

This guy prolly isnt even this class. Someone who got pwned and is looking to try and fool people! Not on my watch. If anything OP's need a bufF!!!!

 

I do not appreciate unfounded accusations. Did you read my posts? If you are going to make that claim, do as I suggested, and confirm that there is no Operative on Ajunta Paul who is logged in RIGHT NOW, who will tell you that he indeed made this post. {Yes, that was in 3rd person}.

 

Do not waste the time of people having a valuable discussion.

[wbtusmc]

If youre getting killed in stun by Smuggler/Op, youre either undergeared or have already taken damage.

[Sathid]

I do not appreciate unfounded accusations. Did you read my posts? If you are going to make that claim, do as I suggested, and confirm that there is no Operative on Ajunta Paul who is logged in RIGHT NOW, who will tell you that he indeed made this post. {Yes, that was in 3rd person}.

 

Do not waste the time of people having a valuable discussion.

 

I know il see yah Tycius and im sure your Imp buddys will gear you up lickty split too since they face rolled so many lower lvl players for a few weeks and are far more geared than us Repubs,but we still win sometimes and it is getting better,but make no mistake you guys have TONS i mean TONS of sorc's and inquis,hell ive been in matches where there was only those two classes many times lol,yarh stun fest.

 

Yes you get to 50 and use your opener on me,i bet you dont get me to half health.

 

EDIT Hell il even meet you at a set time place and let you do it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Sathid

[FalmeseReb]

Being lvl 49 does not entitle you to say that your class is OP, Underpowered, broken, or anything. 3 shotting lowbie noobs doesnt count as pvp experience. get into the 50 bracket and then come back and say OP/SC is OP. all four classes have a counter to operative/scoundrel.

 

1. Jedi Guardian/Sith Jugg. --Guard. force leap. force push. guardian leap away. AOE blind
   
2. Jedi Sentinel/Sith Marauder-- Aoe Blind
   
3. Sorcerer/Sage-- Bubble, knockback+talented root, snare on lightning/tk throw, 30m ranged stun.
   
4. Shadow/Assassin-- tech immunity skill (this is huuuuge), Vanish, knockback, 30m ranged stun. guard, for tank spec.
   
5. Powertech/Vanguard-- guard, 30m stun, plentiful AOE, stealth detection on low CD.
   
6. Mercenary/Commando-- knockback, 30m stun, even more plentiful aoe, stealth detection on low CD.
   
7. Sniper/Gunslinger -- knockback, roots, (probably the weakest against op/sc due to cover requirements.