Is AP really as horrid as everyone says it is?

[Fashooba]

I know people have a tendency to exaggerate things on the forums .. and generally people agree AP is trash for both pve and pvp. I'm at work now so I can't go looking up some skills in the tree but there were two that bothered me..

 

1) free rocket punches. What's the point? Seems like a waste of points and effort to watch for a free rocket punch when it only costs a little to begin with and AP has so much passive heat venting.

 

2) Railshot critical procs. Again it seems like more effort to watch something that's not a huge deal. A rs critical is nice but you spend so much time waiting for it to proc that I feel you lose damage spamming shoddy abilities.

 

 

Its disappointing that St doesn't work better with AP.. seems like jet charge would synergize better with a build that focused on close range damage.

 

 

All this aside, do people have success with AP? It doesn't seem to have any more survivability than PT .. o would think tbat since you have to be closer they would compensate by increasing damage but that doesn't appear to be the case either. Pyrotech is just .. more damage and more range at the cost of needing to watch heat instead it all being done for you....

 

I really want AP to work.

 

 

 

A side note, I'm posting this on my phone and my autocorrect is awful.. hopefully I fixed all the mis-corrections.

[Mhak]

Is AP really as horrid as everyone says it is?

 

Yes.

 

The problem isn't so much that AP itself is horrid, the problem is that it's horrid compared to Pyrotech, which can do virtually everything that AP can except with a slight mobility loss and some very slightly longer CDs - but Pyrotech does tons and tons more damage. The playstyle of AP is very fun and fast, but it just lacks the damage potential it requires to be as competitive and dangerous as Pyrotech is.

 

For a DPS tree it's damage isn't much better than Shield-Tech's, and simply leagues behind Pyro's. That's not fair to AP because the minor utility of the tree doesn't compensate for the huge hit to damage. AP either needs a further boost to utility and/or a buff to damage to be as effective in PvP as Pyrotech is.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Mhak

[Sivn]

Damage wise it feels like it does less than Pyrotech.

 

Heat wise AP is fantastic as it auto vents heat every 6 secs where pyrotech relies on RNG for venting heat......which IMO is a terribad design.

 

AP does need some buffing dmg wise, and tweaking.....flamethrower being one of its main moves is a channelled ability combined with the fact we are mobile melee class.....again terribad design, same as warriors ravage.

 

But i wouldnt say its horrid.

[taugrimtaugrim]

The problem isn't so much that AP itself is horrid, the problem is that it's horrid compared to Pyrotech, which can do virtually everything that AP can except with a slight mobility loss and some very slightly longer CDs - but Pyrotech does tons and tons more damage.

 

Um, it's more than a slight mobility loss.

 

AP has in-combat always-on 15% run speed buff. For a class that needs to stay within 10m to do meaningful sustained damage, that's very helpful.

 

Also, HO is an amazing talent - it's CC immunity against push/pull/snare/root/knockdown for 8 sec every 30 sec along with the speed buff.

 

Lastly, you will rarely have heat problems with AP, whereas with PT it happens much more. The passive 8 heat vented every 6 seconds is a very good talent - it's predictable and reliable.

 

PT definitely packs out more sustained damage and with RS procs more burst. The thing is most players tend to focus on big numbers and do not value mobility or utility.

Edited January 21, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Lyrre]

Yeah, it's sad how terrible AP is because pyrotech is not a very fun spec. I had a blast using AP, it vents heat super well, the animations on immolate and retractable blade are amazing, and popping HO just makes you feel like a ******. I really hope they buff this tree soon or at least make it do similar damage to pyrotech because recently my friends started really hating hearing my character laugh every time i proc a rail shot T_T as have I

[Turibur]

I would never go AP for pve dps but in pvp i believe AP is a little bit better than people give it credit for. The problem is though that alot of its damage is tied to flamethrower, an ability which is VERY situational in pvp.

[Mhak]

Stuff.

 

You don't need to preach to me the benefits of AP, I'm 99% positive I have significantly more playtime with that spec than you do, no offense intended. I have a full set of champ gear and full set of columni/rakata gear and have tested both specs extensively in controlled environments. So just allow me to justify what I meant so you know where I'm coming from.

 

AP gets no snare, Pyro gets a 50% snare. A constant 15% movement speed increase in an environment where you're snared extremely often (and keep in mind snares still function through resolve) is not nearly as effective as a 50% snare for keeping in close range with an opponent. Hydrolic Overrides is a nice talent that puts AP from significantly behind Pyro in terms of keeping close with an opponent to just slightly ahead, when combined with a -10sec CD reduction on grapple.

 

The slight benefit comes at a very significant cost to DPS. Please understand though - I am not putting AP down, I love the playstyle too. I am arguing that it needs buffs. The very slight utility gains from going AP are just not worth the massive hit to DPS. The tradeoff is not fair. I'd argue that adjusting the Prototype Flamethrower talent to make it actually useful somehow (right now it's almost never used to full effect in PvP) and giving AP other buffs that would increase it's damage by about 10-15% would make it competitive with Pyrotech. Still a lot less damage than Pyro, but competitive for usefulness in PvP.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Mhak

[Tenacity]

Meh, for pve DPS I've found a hybrid pyro-AP build (roughly halfway up both trees) to be the most effective for powertechs. Neither immolate or thermal detonator are really worth speccing into compared to the benefit you get if you stack chance proc skills from the lower tiers of each tree.

[Mhak]

That's...not mathematically true at all.

 

Deep into Pyro for the +crit damage, +crit chance, +9% damage to your primary DPS abilities, and +DoT damage is necessary to start reaching competitive raid DPS. Thermal Detonator is a high damage single-use ability to use as part of your rotation after a RS heat vent brings you to near 0 heat. For the same heat it does roughly double-triple the damage of a Flame Burst depending on crit or not.

 

Going high into AP you sacrifice all of that for RB, which for it's heat cost does less damage than a TD, and a very small chance to assure a RS crit....which, when it does crit, will crit for 30% less damage than a full Pyro build.

 

I know the hybrid spec you're talking about, I've tested that build too. You are incorrect to an extreme to say it comes anywhere close to comparing to a full Pyrotech build for stand-alone DPS =/ ~25% less damage is a fair estimate, ~40% less on raid bosses less than 30% HP. When you say "you've found", you cannot possibly mean you've compared that build to a full Pyro build and found it to do more damage. I *have* done exactly that, and found it to do only slightly more damage than a full AP build, with the drawback of far worse heat management.

 

And, for the record, a full AP build does about 33ish% less damage than a full pyro build, as tested and timed on the Council fight in EV.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Mhak

[MorningMusume]

That's...not mathematically true at all.

And, for the record, a full AP build does about 33ish% less damage than a full pyro build, as tested and timed on the Council fight in EV.

 

How many thousands of tests to eliminate the randomness from the equation?

[Mhak]

How many thousands of tests to eliminate the randomness from the equation?

 

Two things exclude randomness from being a significant factor - one, the nature of DPS in this game, where the damage rolls for skills are not very large on hits and crits and their damage can be consistently measured and dependably factored into any build, and two, the length of time of the fight minimized or more likely excluded entirely any possible random factor giving an edge to one run or the other.

 

If this were PvP and the fights lasted 5-10 seconds, randomness might have the opportunity to play a role, but even then only if you got an absurd and uncommon amount of crits in that time. I appreciate you criticism and welcome more.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Mhak

[MaxDeeps]

How many thousands of tests to eliminate the randomness from the equation?

 

Exactly. One fight, particularly one fight in a game without combat logs/damage meters means nothing whatsoever. To prove that one spec has more output than another you need to do it mathematically, ideally through a DPS simulator. Even then, results shouldn't be considered reliable unless the DPS time tested is in the thousands of hours. Even then back in my hardcore WoW raiding days I would do several simulations and take the average.

 

Also, I do believe Musume here did some math that shows AP only slightly behind PT. I'm a tank (well, Parakeet spec) but if I went DPS I think I would have to choose PT. Not necessarily because it does a bit more DPS but because AP relies on Flamethrower and I've seen way too many knockbacks and movement in fights that could mess up a stacked Flamethrower.

[Mhak]

without combat logs/damage meters means nothing

 

This is the only defense people like you have to the extensive controlled testing that has been done by multiple people in this game across about many subjects. And it is not a valid defense.

 

By this same logic I could say "Shield-Tech does twice the damage of Pyrotech. There are no combat logs to prove otherwise." You would call that statement absurd in the same fashion I call anybody saying AP does damage anywhere close to Pyrotech absurd.

 

Test it for yourself. Arguing about things like AP doing comparable damage to Pyro only shows you haven't tested it and are speaking based off subjective preference rather than experience. This is truly not a debatable issue. Combat logs just make it harder to disseminate the facts and easier to hide behind preference. It doesn't change the facts.

 

I really cant wait for combat logs to come out. I'm really not much of an "I told you so" kinda guy but man I will have a FIELD DAY when these come out with some of the people here.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Mhak

[MorningMusume]

Skill damage aren't that far away for a 33% difference, and that doesn't need simulations, are hardcoded formulas from the client itself and simple averages like min-max or crit-noncrit.

 

More so on Council, where you don't have -20% armor reduction as you are fighting alone, and Pyro have an high % of their damage as kinetic (TD, IM is elemental), AP instead has Immolate (ele), RB (66% ignores armor) and Flame Thrower (ele).

 

But I'll love to see your videos of extensive testing on Council, more data is good to have.

Edited January 21, 2012 by MorningMusume

[Kleve]

On a side note, I've been playing with both AP and PT and trying to figure something out.

 

I am somewhat convinced that as PT, I'm taking MORE damage than I am as AP and I can't figure out why. I've looked at the trees, I've read here on the forums, etc. When I'm PT, I do tons more damage, but I seem to spend a lot of time around 50% health. AP, I do less damage and the fights take a tad longer, but my in combat health seems to stay around 75-80%.

 

These are as 'identical' situations as I can arrange. I have mako out, I've made sure she's in her healing stance and I'm attacking same level/same size non-elite/strong spawns on Hoth.

 

Is there some simple answer I'm going to slap my forehead and go 'Duh!' to this?

[Fashooba]

On a side note, I've been playing with both AP and PT and trying to figure something out.

 

I am somewhat convinced that as PT, I'm taking MORE damage than I am as AP and I can't figure out why. I've looked at the trees, I've read here on the forums, etc. When I'm PT, I do tons more damage, but I seem to spend a lot of time around 50% health. AP, I do less damage and the fights take a tad longer, but my in combat health seems to stay around 75-80%.

 

These are as 'identical' situations as I can arrange. I have mako out, I've made sure she's in her healing stance and I'm attacking same level/same size non-elite/strong spawns on Hoth.

 

Is there some simple answer I'm going to slap my forehead and go 'Duh!' to this?

 

 

 

Strange, I felt the same thing (although I did no controlled testing).

 

Overall, I think what bothers me more than the DPS loss is simply.. the rotations. I don't feel that AP has any significant procs. Only useful one is the autocrit RS, but it pales in comparison to the rapid fire RS of PT.

 

My AP rotation boils down to.. running up to target, Immolate. Put on RB asap for the length of the dot. RP since it's now free. Did the RB or RP proc a crit RS? Probably not.. spam FS/RB/RS until I get a RS crit. Flamethrower when at 5 stacks. Immolate when off CS.

 

It feels SOOOOOO MESSY it's insane. I feel like they made the ST tree and the PT tree and just had a bunch of leftover half-assed ideas and threw them into another tree.

 

I like the idea of a highly mobile melee-ranged powertech. But MAN do I hate the AP tree. I don't think it needs tweaking, I think it needs an overhaul.

 

 

Unfortunately, my guild needs more DPS.. and it looks like my only option is "Flame burst.. Rocket punch... *hahahaha* RS... flame burst... flame burst... flame burst... *hahaha* RS...". Do other DPS classes have this boring of a rotation?

[MorningMusume]

My AP rotation boils down to.. running up to target, Immolate. Put on RB asap for the length of the dot. RP since it's now free. Did the RB or RP proc a crit RS? Probably not.. spam FS/RB/RS until I get a RS crit. Flamethrower when at 5 stacks. Immolate when off CS.

 

I don't think FT at 5 stacks is a good rotation. You can't use FB 5 times between FT, and waiting for 5 stacks is a net lose of dps.

 

Every 15 seconds you need to use:

 

FT, RS, RP, IMMO, RB, you only have 4 GCD free for FB/RShots. And a 0 stacks FT is anyway better dps than FB+RShots.

 

The heat balance for that rotation is +6.5 Heat (RP free) or +15 heat (RP paid). So you usally need to do 2 FB/2 Rapid Shots for keeping the heat on check. So usually FT will have 2-3 stacks, unless you are stacking for burst purposes, but you'll lose sustained dps doing that.

 

Maybe it seems logical that dealy a skill by 10% (1.5 secs of 15 secs cooldown) and increase is damage by 10% is a good choice. But what you are using to delay it is worst dps by 25-30% than using directly FT.

Edited January 22, 2012 by MorningMusume

[Weidekuh]

Here in this thread they try to calculate the dps with math. http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Powertech-Vanguard-DPS-Compendium?page=10

 

I think AP hovers around 1000 dps and Pyro ~1300 dps. without combat logs to test it it's of course not very precise but it gives you some idea of it.

[MorningMusume]

Here in this thread they try to calculate the dps with math. http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Powertech-Vanguard-DPS-Compendium?page=10

 

I think AP hovers around 1000 dps and Pyro ~1300 dps. without combat logs to test it it's of course not very precise but it gives you some idea of it.

 

But that spreadsheet had major bugs on favor of Pyro until a couple days ago. This is the list of bugs I told the owner:

 

-Firebug gives 30% extra critical damage to the skills, not 30% extra crit. That change alone increase the damage of those skills by ~10%.

-The internal damage from Retractable Blade is being reduced by armor. This nerfs RB by ~20%.

-Retractable Blade doesn't benefit from Serrated Blades, nerfing it by an additional ~6%.

-Immolate, Flame Burst and Rocket Punch gain 3% extra crit damage instead of 30% from the PWS skill, nerfing AP more.

 

They are fixed now I think, and there is almost no difference between both specs.

Edited January 22, 2012 by MorningMusume

[Fashooba]

Here in this thread they try to calculate the dps with math. http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Powertech-Vanguard-DPS-Compendium?page=10

 

I think AP hovers around 1000 dps and Pyro ~1300 dps. without combat logs to test it it's of course not very precise but it gives you some idea of it.

 

 

Now what I would like to know is how the Carolina Parakeet compares to the AP build. I would assume less, but how much? Using the figures above, would you say.. 800 DPS?

[taugrimtaugrim]

Now what I would like to know is how the Carolina Parakeet compares to the AP build. I would assume less, but how much? Using the figures above, would you say.. 800 DPS?

 

There is something that people tend to forget: the playstyle and range requirements of different specs.

 

E.g. AP can deal high sustained damage without needing to stay in 4m range, whereas Carolina Parakeet will make more use of Rocket Punch and will generally do more meleeing compared to AP.

 

In PVP opponents (if they are skilled) make use of good movement as needed, so you can't just sit like you can against mobs, which tend to have very predictable movement.

[Lyrre]

Strange, I felt the same thing (although I did no controlled testing).

 

Overall, I think what bothers me more than the DPS loss is simply.. the rotations. I don't feel that AP has any significant procs. Only useful one is the autocrit RS, but it pales in comparison to the rapid fire RS of PT.

 

My AP rotation boils down to.. running up to target, Immolate. Put on RB asap for the length of the dot. RP since it's now free. Did the RB or RP proc a crit RS? Probably not.. spam FS/RB/RS until I get a RS crit. Flamethrower when at 5 stacks. Immolate when off CS.

 

It feels SOOOOOO MESSY it's insane. I feel like they made the ST tree and the PT tree and just had a bunch of leftover half-assed ideas and threw them into another tree.

 

I like the idea of a highly mobile melee-ranged powertech. But MAN do I hate the AP tree. I don't think it needs tweaking, I think it needs an overhaul.

 

 

Unfortunately, my guild needs more DPS.. and it looks like my only option is "Flame burst.. Rocket punch... *hahahaha* RS... flame burst... flame burst... flame burst... *hahaha* RS...". Do other DPS classes have this boring of a rotation?

 

This is exactly how I feel, although I actually enjoy the insanity of AP right now just because of how you described pyrotech. Playing pyrotech is more about not overheating yourself as opposed to being quick on your rotation...and that laugh, THAT HORRIBLE LAUGH. My guildies finally noticed it and they all hate me as a dps, even though my dps is insane...oh well, at least it's not tracer missile