Unimpressed by this game's story--am I the only one?

[KremlinKOA]

Here's a real spoiler for you: A game seeking to have as wide of an audience as possible cannot possibly hope to have a grand, intricate story with a ton of depth et cetera.

 

As a lover of literature and student of English (seeking teaching credentials) I understand the lack of really GREAT story. It's very cut-and-dry, cliche, and played. We've seen these stories before and many of the stories lack the minor details which can help a user/reader to connect. But understand it's difficult to write such stories for millions of potential players as well as have them translate well into other languages. They have to be basic or tried.

 

I agree the stories are dry, but in general Star Wars is a dry material. Even the original triliogy was rather poorly executed from a pure dialogue/story perspective. Lucas is no Nabakov...

 

You would rather the class stories played out like Lolita?

[KremlinKOA]

Hardly, the Jedi NPCs that do show up when you play as Sith are horribly inaccurate prtrayals of what they are in the setting, and I highly doubt that the light side choices change that portrayal much. Besides, in Mace Windu's own words, Jedi are not creatures of morality.

 

The simple and obvious answer is that those Jedi do not match canon portrayals of what Jedi are. Which isn't surprising, considering that this wouldn't be the first time that writers that aren't Stover, Lucas, or Luceno managed to screw up Jedi, and the Force in general.

 

Wrong. Not only are the portrayals of those Jedi Canonical, at the C Canon level. they are more. SWTOR is, by it's very nature, thje definitive portrayal of both Sith and Jedi for this point in SW history. This work, and the KOTOR works, define this era.

 

Revanites aren't Sith. They aren't Jedi either. Revanites are Revanites.

 

Revanites are a secret society in the empire. They consist of Mandalorians, Imperial military officers, and many Light sided Sith... and a few Dark sided Sith.

 

 

 

There are a couple less harsh NPCs on the Empire side, but they are hardly light-sided. They are all hate-filled, angry people who want nothing better than to hurt the ones who hurt them. That is not light-sided. There are no light-sided characters amongst the Empire's Force users.

 

This is false, see below.

 

 

Yep. That is why there will be designated canon versions of the story paths for each class, and others that will fall into the realm of non-canon. That said, even though you are drawing closer to the light as a light side Sith, you are still a dark side Force user in the actual story, which means,by your very existence, you are a threat to the whole galaxy.

 

This is disproven by the story of a particualr quest on Dromund Kaas. In the Dark temple you meet a holorecording of Keleth Ur. If you destroy the recording as a Sith Warrior, you can dismiss Keleth UR as 'Just some Sith that went Light Side.'

 

Well, ignoring their point system that they use in this game to measure the quality of a person's inner being (which I find to be laughably stupid) in the actual setting, what that guy is suggesting is still absolutely dark-sided. Just not as bad.

Only in the early acts, redemption is a process in this game, By the end you do genuinely good acts if you go consistently Light Side.

 

 

 

Don't exagerate. They attempt to engage you in combat, to fight you to the death. They do not try to murder you in cold blood. That said, killing in Star Wars is dark-sided, period. No matter who is doing it, or the reason for the killing.

 

Then those Jedi starting the fight are dark sided.

 

I have yet to run into a Jedi that hurls insults, on any of my Sith characters. The Sith characters on the otherhand insulted the hell out of my Jedi character even when I was nice to them.

 

The padawan in Black Talon is the first one like that you meet.

 

 

 

Other Sith like her? Jaesa Wilsaam is a monster once you turn her. What exactly does she mean by, "like her?" Maybe some behave more or less honorably than others?

If you play your SW light sided, she remains true to the Jedi Ideals.

Either way she uses her powers to detext dozens of light sided Sith. If you are LS you help protect them, if DS you work to destroy them.

 

 

 

Jedi are not supposed to try and see good in people. There are only three things Jedi are supposed to do, in order from greatest to least. Serve the Force, show loyalty to their fellow Jedi, and defend the Republic. That is what is known as their three loyalties.

 

So Luke Skywalker was a fail Jedi?

 

Again, bad writers who don't pay attention to the setting should not be allowed to touch Jedi.

 

LucasArts worked hand in hand with BW on this. They looked over every plot point and twist. I guess George shouldn't touch Jedi...

[Thralil]

Op...go away...no one cares.

[Jorander]

Wrong. Not only are the portrayals of those Jedi Canonical, at the C Canon level. they are more. SWTOR is, by it's very nature, thje definitive portrayal of both Sith and Jedi for this point in SW history. This work, and the KOTOR works, define this era.

 

They break away from G-canon, and any time a lower source of canon contradicts G-canon, it is rendered N-canon. In otherwords, if Jedi aren't acting according to how they are supposed to act in G-canon, then Jedi aren't acting how they are supposed to act, period.

 

Revanites are a secret society in the empire. They consist of Mandalorians, Imperial military officers, and many Light sided Sith... and a few Dark sided Sith.

 

If we are talking strictly about the Force-users, then no, there are no Sith, light-sided or otherwise, in the Revanites, because you cannot be a Sith and a Revanite at the same time, as their teachings are mutually contradictory. While there may be some NPCs who pretend to the name of Sith, who are in the Order of Revan, they are not Sith.

 

This is false, see below.

 

 

This is disproven by the story of a particualr quest on Dromund Kaas. In the Dark temple you meet a holorecording of Keleth Ur. If you destroy the recording as a Sith Warrior, you can dismiss Keleth UR as 'Just some Sith that went Light Side.'

 

Keleth Ur was dead by this point, and his teachings are universally considered to be either heresy or incomplete by every single imperial/Sith that you actually encounter in the game. Keleth Ur was in fact, a Sith that discovered, or rather re-discovered, the light side of the Force.

 

Only in the early acts, redemption is a process in this game, By the end you do genuinely good acts if you go consistently Light Side.

 

What exactly are you commenting on here? I was refering specifically to the act of turning a new group of Force-users to the dark side. That act does not magically become light-sided upon the actor's redemption.

 

Then those Jedi starting the fight are dark sided.

 

Not necessarily. Performing one dark act does not make you dark-sided. Note though, that when you kill in direct defense of life (not indirect) it is proportionally light-sided as well. This is all about the Campbellian theme of internal balance.

 

The padawan in Black Talon is the first one like that you meet.

 

She was willing to let me go if I just backed off when I played through as dark-sided. I also don't remember her insulting me. I remember her asking me to stand down, and telling me that I don't scare her.

 

If you play your SW light sided, she remains true to the Jedi Ideals.

Either way she uses her powers to detext dozens of light sided Sith. If you are LS you help protect them, if DS you work to destroy them.

 

So I have heard, and that actually makes sense. But the canon portrayal will no doubt be her turning to the dark side because the currently unamed Sith Warrior will almost certainly be dark-side upon the release of canon information. If they ever do decide to release that.

 

So Luke Skywalker was a fail Jedi?

 

Luke Skywalker didn't have to try anything. He saw what he did for two reasons, the strength he had in the Force, and the love he had for his father. What the Jedi are supposed to have, is love for all life, even life that has no good left in it. In Lucas' own words, Jedi are supposed to love all life, Jedi should love their enemies, Jedi should love the Sith. Jedi aren't supposed to see good in people, they are supposed to be able to self-sacrificingly love the people who aren't good.

 

LucasArts worked hand in hand with BW on this. They looked over every plot point and twist. I guess George shouldn't touch Jedi...

 

Lucas himself is not involved in any of the creation of the EU, though he will on occassion use elements of the EU in his work if he feels it is appropriate. He does not keep up on the EU. He only just discovered cortosis and vibroblades during the filming of a certain episode of TCW, and he was angry enough to say he never wanted to see anything like that in any Star Wars, ever. If he actually kept up with some of the EU that has been retconned, (and some of the stuff htat hasn't, but needs to be, and some of the stuff that was retconned that shouldn't have been) I am sure he would have permanent high BP.

[KremlinKOA]

They break away from G-canon, and any time a lower source of canon contradicts G-canon, it is rendered N-canon. In otherwords, if Jedi aren't acting according to how they are supposed to act in G-canon, then Jedi aren't acting how they are supposed to act, period.

 

Do you really want to get into another argument with me on how Jedi acted in the Movies?

I still have my posts saved from last time.

 

 

 

If we are talking strictly about the Force-users, then no, there are no Sith, light-sided or otherwise, in the Revanites, because you cannot be a Sith and a Revanite at the same time, as their teachings are mutually contradictory. While there may be some NPCs who pretend to the name of Sith, who are in the Order of Revan, they are not Sith.

 

If you choose the LS ending of that quest string as a Sith your character ends up both Sith and Revanite.

 

 

 

Keleth Ur was dead by this point, and his teachings are universally considered to be either heresy or incomplete by every single imperial/Sith that you actually encounter in the game. Keleth Ur was in fact, a Sith that discovered, or rather re-discovered, the light side of the Force.

 

The questgiver considers it a scary attack by the ligth against the darkness.

 

 

 

What exactly are you commenting on here? I was refering specifically to the act of turning a new group of Force-users to the dark side. That act does not magically become light-sided upon the actor's redemption.

 

Funny, you were responding to

 

Questivers encountered as a empire player seems to vary a bit. Some are the archetypical 'evil douchebag' that wants you to commit wars of crime, but there are also some that are just trying to make things work for the better given the situation. One example is on some planet I can't remember the name of, where one questgiver tells you to boobytrap communication devices and plant them on fallen corpses so the republic will gather them. A guy you talk with during the quest explains he's not too hooked on the idea as anyone, kids included, could stumble upon them and try to use a communicator, so you get the option of letting him rig the boobytraps on grenades instead, which only soldiers would be asumed to try and use.

 

Which you said that the LS empire options are just 'less evil.' In response I mentioned to you that this si only true in prelude and part of act 1. In acts 2 and 3 the LS choices require greater acts of goodness.

 

 

Not necessarily. Performing one dark act does not make you dark-sided. Note though, that when you kill in direct defense of life (not indirect) it is proportionally light-sided as well. This is all about the Campbellian theme of internal balance.

 

Whilst I acknowledge that. You should note that some of the NPCs if you play a LS empire character force you into fights you try to avoid. I have had Jedi try to kill me to prevent me performing live capture of a criminal as a BH.

 

 

 

She was willing to let me go if I just backed off when I played through as dark-sided. I also don't remember her insulting me. I remember her asking me to stand down, and telling me that I don't scare her.

 

Actually if you respond to the back off order with an attempo to talk the situation out peacefully, she attacks.

 

 

 

So I have heard, and that actually makes sense. But the canon portrayal will no doubt be her turning to the dark side because the currently unamed Sith Warrior will almost certainly be dark-side upon the release of canon information. If they ever do decide to release that.

 

And if that is the canon then they go and hunt dozens of the LS Sith that are in the Empire. The ones you say do not exist.

 

 

 

Luke Skywalker didn't have to try anything. He saw what he did for two reasons, the strength he had in the Force, and the love he had for his father. What the Jedi are supposed to have, is love for all life, even life that has no good left in it. In Lucas' own words, Jedi are supposed to love all life, Jedi should love their enemies, Jedi should love the Sith. Jedi aren't supposed to see good in people, they are supposed to be able to self-sacrificingly love the people who aren't good.

 

But he refused to fight, that was how he redeemed his father. The opposite of what you are saying a Jedi should do.

 

 

 

Lucas himself is not involved in any of the creation of the EU, though he will on occassion use elements of the EU in his work if he feels it is appropriate. He does not keep up on the EU. He only just discovered cortosis and vibroblades during the filming of a certain episode of TCW, and he was angry enough to say he never wanted to see anything like that in any Star Wars, ever. If he actually kept up with some of the EU that has been retconned, (and some of the stuff htat hasn't, but needs to be, and some of the stuff that was retconned that shouldn't have been) I am sure he would have permanent high BP.

 

Which is wierd because in G Canon Vader's armor can deflect Lightsabers.

[Jorander]

Do you really want to get into another argument with me on how Jedi acted in the Movies?

I still have my posts saved from last time.

 

I never want to get into an argument, ever. I like ignorance even less. Are you sure it was I who you got into an argument with? Because I don't remember you at all.

 

If you choose the LS ending of that quest string as a Sith your character ends up both Sith and Revanite.

 

What you mean to say is that your character ends up in two organizations, the Order of Revan, and an organization that calls itself Sith, after the same name of the species and the teachings. Your character is no longer a Sith though, as one cannot be a Sith without believing in their teachings.

 

The questgiver considers it a scary attack by the ligth against the darkness.

 

Strange, what he actually called it was, "heretical teachings."

 

Funny, you were responding to

 

Which you said that the LS empire options are just 'less evil.' In response I mentioned to you that this si only true in prelude and part of act 1. In acts 2 and 3 the LS choices require greater acts of goodness.

 

Strange, somehow my response meant for one thing ended up being directed at something entirely different. That said, it still works, because strapping live explosives to corpses in an attempt to kill people is still dark-sided, and the nature of that fact isn't changed after the redemption of the actor. I don't disagree that the later actions taken are of a different nature.

 

If you read any of my posts on the subject before the forum wipe, you may remember how loudly I proclaimed my ideas that the light side Sith story would be one of a slow eventual redemption, though it was less intricate than I thought, the elements that I expected were still there. A light-sided person to act as a beacon, (Ashara Zavros for the SI) and teachings on the light side of the Force, so one could break from using the dark side all the time, and we have those in the form of Keleth Ur's teachings.

 

Whilst I acknowledge that. You should note that some of the NPCs if you play a LS empire character force you into fights you try to avoid. I have had Jedi try to kill me to prevent me performing live capture of a criminal as a BH.

 

Again, direct defense of life. What was going to happen to this guy that you captured once you captured him?

 

Actually if you respond to the back off order with an attempo to talk the situation out peacefully, she attacks.

 

While odd, that is not out of the realm of possibility given her mission to protect life, and the general reputation of the Sith, and the fact that she is only a padawan. Though, again, this goes back to what I have said previously about portrayals of various characters in the setting.

 

And if that is the canon then they go and hunt dozens of the LS Sith that are in the Empire. The ones you say do not exist.

 

You'll forgive me if I question how light-sided they actually are. That out of the way, I have yet to see what Jaesa says about them when she turns dark-sided. Not having seen that particular bit as dark-sided, I think there is every possibility that they aren't actually light-sided if you go dark-sided, especially based on the other inconcistencies found from the light-dark variations of the stories. For that one I will just have to wait and see.

 

But he refused to fight, that was how he redeemed his father. The opposite of what you are saying a Jedi should do.

 

I don't recall saying that. I said Jedi aren't supposed to try and see good in people, and they aren't. Jedi are supposed to love the good and the evil, which was what Luke did. He loved his greatest enemy, who was incidentally also bound up in himself. There is a lot I could go on about Luke's greatest enemy being himself, and the goal of the dark cave (a story-telling archetype if ever there was one) but I will keep on point. This is the heart of how they serve the Force, show loyalty to the Order, and defend the Republic. Jedi shouldn't fight or not fight, Jedi should be guided by the Force in all things, however that looks, in whatever way it plays out. Also, Luke's action ran much deeper than a simple refusal to fight.

 

Which is wierd because in G Canon Vader's armor can deflect Lightsabers.

 

And Phrik electrostaves block Obi-Wan's lightsaber in RotS. I know. I actually have a possible theory as to why the lightsaber attack was stopped, and it is supported by other canon, but the Phrik thing I have no explanation for. I am chalking that one up to a mistake on Lucas' part.

 

As for my explanation on the armor stopping the lightsaber, I actually think it was Vader absorbing the energy of the attack, in the same way he stopped Han's blasterbolt, with his gloved, significantly less-armored, hand. I think what he did, was use Tutaminis, or energy absorption to stop the attack, and that makes a kind of sense, as the ones who designed the SW RPG do actually talk to canon managers, and have a picture of the scene where Vader stops the bolt as their example pic for that power in one of their core books. Note that I am not relying on any stats or anything like that, I am just saying there is a small amount of evidence for that theory.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Jorander

[Swatter]

All right. Let me spell it out for all of you what is off about the class stories.

 

1) The goals of each class story change with every chapter. I never know what my character's true story goal/motivation is, because it is always shifting. Note: This does not happen in novels or books. It also doesn't happen in Bioware's hit RPGs (such as KOTOR).

 

2) The villains likewise change or rotate. Sometimes they just magically go away for a while, to suddenly reappear at random. Note: This does not happen in novels or books. It also doesn't happen in Bioware's hit RPGs (such as KOTOR).

 

3) Certain turning points present in every novel/movie are missing. Please reference Campbell, Vogler, or even Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat!" book. (See below for a breakdown of KOTOR to the Hero's Journey.)

 

4) There is no obvious theme. The theme is the essentially the lesson the protagonist has to learn to finally overcome the big obstacle in his way (the villain). Even KOTOR had a theme. It was redemption.

 

5) Because there is no theme, by necessity important plot points from #3 are missing and, even if they weren't, they'd be sorely lacking in any depth. The "Dark Night of the Soul" from the Hero's Journey, for example, not only deals with the protagonist suffering a defeat, but in him finally learning the theme. Before that point, the protagonist has been avoiding learning the theme at all costs. Now he is forced to learn it to overcome the villain in the final fight.

 

---

 

I wouldn't normally bother dissecting a video game's story like this, if it weren't for Bioware promising us good stories within our PvE. And Bioware is well aware of how to craft a good story. Quite frankly, I am surprised that the very company that produced KOTOR produced these attention-deficit string of class quests. A string of quests does not equal a story.

 

As a side note, I'm not saying the original trilogy was the best story ever told. The last one in the series proved that they ran out of ideas (teddy bears with spears, rehashing the death star, etc.). However, the first two had actual plots, despite the plot holes. The prequels simply did not. There's no getting around it. I'm sorry if you like the prequels, but they're not even remotely well-told stories. Much like the class stories in this game.

 

And no, I didn't see the original trilogy in the theaters in the 70's. I am in my late 20s. I'm not even that hard-core of a Star Wars fan. At all.

 

To prove my point, here is a breakdown of KOTOR 1 to the Hero's Journey, borrowing from Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat!" format here and there. If you can take your preferred class story and break it down into these points, then congratulations, Bioware bothered for your class's story.

 

 

 

 

Ordinary World - Endar Spire crashes. Background info introduced. Taris.

Theme Stated - Trask saves Revan's life. Redemption theme subtly introduced.

Catalyst/Call to Adventure - Jedi Council on Dantooine asks Revan to train and look for the Star Maps.

Debate/Refusal of the Call - Revan refuses (dialogue option), saying that he is just an ordinary guy.

Act II begins - Revan sets out to find the first Star Map on Dantooine.

B-Story - Often the "love" story. Romance blooms. Strongest is the Revan/Bastila pairing, due to Bastila's pivotal role in upcoming plot points. (Sorry, Carth fans! Blame Bioware! Not me!)

Fun & Games - The crew of the Ebon Hawk find the other Star Maps, run into bounty hunters and Sith, and all-in-all have fun.

Midpoint - Either a false victory or a false defeat. In KOTOR, a false defeat where the Leviathan catches the crew. Typically the midpoint starts a clock that ticks down. There is only so much time until the bad guys close in.

Bad Guys Close In - Revan and friends tortured for information. Only so much time until Malak arrives. Pressure increased when Karath tells Carth Bastila's little secret.

All is Lost - Darth Malak arrives. Revan's identity revealed. Bastila is captured.

Dark Night of the Soul - Revan has lost everything. He must learn the theme (redemption), or reject the theme should the story go dark-sided, and cope with his identity.

Act III Begins - A story and B story combine and reveal solution. Revan meets Bastila atop the Rakatan temple. If dark-sided, Bastila reveals the solution to stop Malak. If light-sided, Revan chooses to redeem Bastila as the solution and stop Malak on his own.

Finale - Final fight. Revan wins. The end.

 

 

 

You seem to miss an important point. In KOTOR, the hero's journey is optional. You can choose to fall into your old ways and learn nothing and conquer the universe in the name of evil. Its called choice.

 

Video games are different than books and movies in the respect that you are an agent in the story. Ill agree KOTOR had a great story that could follow the generic hero's journey if that is what you choose. At the same time, you simply cannot expect them to create 9 KOTORs. Given realistic expectations, I believe the stories are pretty good considering you must make them all converge at different points thoughout the game (syncing the stories with leveling areas). I franky doubt an MMO could make it work, but SWTOR was brilliantly designed. Given I would have prefered a D&D style leveling over WoW leveling, but that is just a vehicle.