MaxDeeps Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) The tank relics all have Endurance and Power as passive stats on them now while the DPS/healing ones have pure Endurance. That seems wrong. Tanks would want the pure Endurance on their relics while the DPS and healers would prefer some extra Power over pure Endurance. You could make the argument that maybe the DPS/Healers need the Endurance boost or that tanks might want the Power for threat gen but I don't think that really holds up. It's really more of a resignation than a preference; "I'd really prefer the pure Endurance, but I guess the Power isn't totally useless" or "I'd really prefer some of that Power, but I guess maybe the Endurance is better than nothing". Please put the pure Endurance on the tanking relics and the Power/Endurance on the DPS/healing ones. That's how people are going to want it, how it makes sense and how it should be. Edit: I should've noted for those out of the loop the change to the relics occurred today with the 1.1 patch. Edited January 18, 2012 by MaxDeeps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Please put the pure Endurance on the tanking relics and the Power/Endurance on the DPS/healing ones. That's how people are going to want it, how it makes sense and how it should be. Dear god no. Even more Endurance is completely worthless to tanks. We already get enough Endurance tangentially (and, honestly, when possible, you want to further skew this by purposefully taking less Endurance and more defensive stats or, failing that, your primary stat). We don't need more. If you're asking for a change, ask for the non-tank relics to be given the same stats as the tank relics. More Endurance would be completely worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVathal Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Dear god no. Even more Endurance is completely worthless to tanks. We already get enough Endurance tangentially (and, honestly, when possible, you want to further skew this by purposefully taking less Endurance and more defensive stats or, failing that, your primary stat). We don't need more. If you're asking for a change, ask for the non-tank relics to be given the same stats as the tank relics. More Endurance would be completely worthless. Hmm, I see where your coming from, but tbh its void, mandatory unchangable items such as relics which have set stats should not have choice stats, if im suffering with aggro then I will ensure im at the hitcap, maybe bring a different stim. If im low on defense(which you shouldnt be as the tank gear gives a lot by default), power especially at tanks current gear level shouldnt be our primary off stat anyway, as the hit cap is more important for threat generation, and(as a juggernaugt atleast) will free up to 3 talent points through gear Where power is not useless stat I would say the priority order of stats (For a juggernaugt) should be somthing similar to Endurance>Mitigation stats(rounded to peak efficiency as much as possible)>Hit>Crit><Power. To summarise, where as surge may be useful for threat generation the extra 500~hp gained from using 2 DPS trinkets(and using the procs to boost threat) are probably more useful in both situations atm, even if they do change the tanking relics to be Endurance with mitigation use, I would probly still use 1 DPS and 1 Tanking Relic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 as the hit cap is more important for threat generation, and(as a juggernaugt atleast) will free up to 3 talent points through gear Actually, accuracy is a much less important tank stat than you might think. All special ranged attacks and Force powers have a default 100% hit chance and raid enemies are no more difficult to hit than normal enemies. Multi-hit attacks (such as all basic attacks) mitigate the need for accuracy since they deal proportionate damage rather than binary damage thanks to each attack making a separate attack roll. The only times you actually need accuracy are if you are heavily dependent on non-multiattack melee attacks or ranged basic attacks (ranged "special attacks" have a 100% chance to hit by default). Where power is not useless stat I would say the priority order of stats (For a juggernaugt) should be somthing similar to Endurance>Mitigation stats(rounded to peak efficiency as much as possible)>Hit>Crit><Power. Endurance should *never* take precedence over legitimate tanking stats that actually reduce your incoming damage rather than just making sure you can take more damage. Since simply taking more damage does nothing to help your healers and actually makes you *less* survivable since additional mitigation gains on a percentage are actually *more* potent than the previous additional mitigation gains. The actual best priority for tanks would be Mitigation>Endurance(until you reach the "one shot" threshold)>Damage stats(Primary>Power>Surge>Crit; Acc inserted after primary if you actually need it for your class)>Endurance(beyond the "one shot" threshold) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVathal Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Actually, accuracy is a much less important tank stat than you might think. All special ranged attacks and Force powers have a default 100% hit chance and raid enemies are no more difficult to hit than normal enemies. Multi-hit attacks (such as all basic attacks) mitigate the need for accuracy since they deal proportionate damage rather than binary damage thanks to each attack making a separate attack roll. The only times you actually need accuracy are if you are heavily dependent on non-multiattack melee attacks or ranged basic attacks (ranged "special attacks" have a 100% chance to hit by default). Endurance should *never* take precedence over legitimate tanking stats that actually reduce your incoming damage rather than just making sure you can take more damage. Since simply taking more damage does nothing to help your healers and actually makes you *less* survivable since additional mitigation gains on a percentage are actually *more* potent than the previous additional mitigation gains. The actual best priority for tanks would be Mitigation>Endurance(until you reach the "one shot" threshold)>Damage stats(Primary>Power>Surge>Crit; Acc inserted after primary if you actually need it for your class)>Endurance(beyond the "one shot" threshold) When I say endurance> it doesnt mean stack endurance as you cannot, however if im given the option to choose 500~ hp over 60~ power I will choose the 500~hp. I dont understand why Surge>Crit would be any good, and again Primary Stat(Str) I dont see how that can be stacked. So are you saying to change all the tanking mods in your gear to reflect higher strength and lower endurance? The one shot threshhold? I have not seen any boss which comes close to 1 shotting as of yet, the extra 3k~ hp I gain through personal choice makes a difference in raids. Where as it does not directly effect mitigation it does allow healers more breathing room and that % of time it saves you from death is worth it over say 3% extra threat through swapping for strength, to be honest threat hasnt been a majour issue when it comes to bosses in this game, the few times threat has been lost normally due to a bad string of initial threat, im yet to see a threat tabled boss that isnt tauntable. Im not totally up to speed on the use of accuracy tbh, to me it seems like common sense to reach a highish level for now(as im unsure of the defenses of bosses but im pretty sure they have atleast 5%+ Deflect/Parry). I have noticed my threat increase quite dramatically as both my talents and gear have changed to reflect more Accuracy, but im not going to debate somthing that I dont know the figures on like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batslav Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 sry but tanking relics have about 20 if not more endurance below the damage one and *** i can do with the power bonus when i dont need it at all ? as tank i want to have as much hp as i can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 as tank i want to have as much hp as i can Just stop talking please. If you honestly believe that tanking can be best accomplished by stacking hit points then I have only sympathy for the poor people you end up tanking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gankstah Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Just stop talking please. If you honestly believe that tanking can be best accomplished by stacking hit points then I have only sympathy for the poor people you end up tanking for. Dude, seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Dude, seriously? Yes, seriously. Endurance that takes you beyond a reasonable time-til-death is completely redundant in that it doesn't mitigate damage in the least and doesn't increase your chances of defeating hard enemies. Once you have enough Endurance to survive, which is easily gained tangentially from *any* of the available gearing paradigms, further Endurance is *entirely pointless*. Anyone that doesn't understand this is using tragically outdated thought processes where tanking is concerned: this isn't vanilla or TBC WoW where tanks were just blocks of hit points; even the most HP stacked tanks don't have appreciably more hit points than DPS or healers (20-25% at most). Because of this, Endurance has no appreciable value to a tank beyond the minimum requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinnyil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Kit's right here, with the exception of course of mobs who don't do any mitigateable attacks (bzzt force lightning!). Soa comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gankstah Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Yes, seriously. You misunderstand. I'm not questioning your reasoning. I'm intimately familiar with the math being tanking in TOR. I understand your premise and actually agree. Mathematically it makes more sense. What I don't understand is you ruining a perfectly good point of view with vitriolic garbage. Telling someone to "stop talking" because they have a different opinion than yours is about as childish as it gets. Maybe you're having a bad day. I dunno. But I'm accustomed to seeing better responses from you. Not this crap. You're better than that. Edited January 20, 2012 by Gankstah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batslav Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Just stop talking please. If you honestly believe that tanking can be best accomplished by stacking hit points then I have only sympathy for the poor people you end up tanking for. we talk about relic that boost tank stat when used so it should give more hp than a damage one coz dmg specs dont need that much hp right ? its the tank that takes all the dmg and if u dont know when u pick tank gear all parts are with more endurance than in my case willpower so want or not i stack up hp together with other defensive stats and yes i want more hp and ppl never had problems with me tanking btw so try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Telling someone to "stop talking" because they have a different opinion than yours is about as childish as it gets. Maybe you're having a bad day. I dunno. But I'm accustomed to seeing better responses from you. The problem is that it's not really an opinion when you can provide a mathematical foundation for proving them wrong. I've spent *way* too much time dealing with people that are incapable of realizing the Endurance stacking is *not* intelligent nor is it even remotely functional; if anything, it's debilitating since you're purposefully using itemization that could actually *provide* some function to provide you with more of a stat that doesn't do anything for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtenEQ Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) The problem is that it's not really an opinion when you can provide a mathematical foundation for proving them wrong. I've spent *way* too much time dealing with people that are incapable of realizing the Endurance stacking is *not* intelligent nor is it even remotely functional; if anything, it's debilitating since you're purposefully using itemization that could actually *provide* some function to provide you with more of a stat that doesn't do anything for you. Those guys are spreading a lot of misinformation about the way tanking metrics should actually be valued. First: Endurance should only be used and taken in favor of mitigation to meet survivability caps. Then: Once you are past this survivability cap you do not need additional endurance as you already have enough HP to survive said encounter. Having more will not increase your survivability, it will only possibly increase your hits to death buffer against magic damage. Once you survive an encounter, you should be reasonable enough geared such that any increases in endurance are not worth taking over increases in damage reduction, that being defense, shield, absorbtion. These three metrics result in more damage reduced and will increase your time-to-live in all scenarios minus "Magic damage inc > Physical damage inc over the course of the fight." Though even though there is a lot of magic damage flying around in the SoA fight, there is in no way more magic damage than physical damage done to the tank. One thing you should never ever do is favor one completely over the other, in terms of getting more HP or getting more damage mitigation. We can't help but increase our END as we get more geared because each upgrade naturally has more END on it. Thus we don't realistically need to take relics that have ~20 END on them in order to make sure we survive. You would actually be better off in all scenarios to take the 20 END hit and increase your actual survivability. TL:DR Increasing your END =/= increasing your survivability once you survive an encounter once. Edited January 20, 2012 by FtenEQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Those guys are spreading a lot of misinformation about the way tanking metrics should actually be valued. That's pretty much my point, though there are a lot of really stubborn people unwilling to look at the stats with an open mind rather than simply operating under outdated concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batslav Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 so damage specs dont need power ? coz their relics gives only endurance and i dont care if i need more hp or not in order to survive encounter tank relics must have more endurance than a damage one same as any other tank item in the game is it so hard to understand it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 coz their relics gives only endurance No, they have a use power that provides a healthy sum of an offensive stat. The devs probably didn't want use and stats doing double duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtenEQ Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) so damage specs dont need power ? coz their relics gives only endurance and i dont care if i need more hp or not in order to survive encounter tank relics must have more endurance than a damage one same as any other tank item in the game is it so hard to understand it ? I can see you haven't really gleaned any information from our previous posts. To answer your questsion that Kit didn't directly answer. No they don't necessarily have to have more endurance. Tanks do not need to have more HP than any other role in the game, they just need to have the ability to tank the content successfully. Edited January 20, 2012 by FtenEQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykomyke Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) You misunderstand. I'm not questioning your reasoning. I'm intimately familiar with the math being tanking in TOR. I understand your premise and actually agree. Mathematically it makes more sense. What I don't understand is you ruining a perfectly good point of view with vitriolic garbage. Telling someone to "stop talking" because they have a different opinion than yours is about as childish as it gets. Maybe you're having a bad day. I dunno. But I'm accustomed to seeing better responses from you. Not this crap. You're better than that. I'm not. From my experiences the aforementioned person you are talking to is a pro thread-jacker. But I digress. I humbly argue that endurance and mitigation are equally valuable stats that are symbiotic in their relationship with one another. Take for example 100 health with 50% damage reduction (for simple math). Again an enemy that deals 2 damage per attack, I effectively can take 100 hits because of my mitigation. If you had the same mitigation but with 200 health, you can take twice as many hits. If you increase your mitigation to 75% then each point of health becomes that more "durable" and it would take twice as many hits to kill you. If you increase your actual health pool along with mitigation, your total EFFECTIVE health pool is increased. It does not good to have 75% damage reduction against an enemy who deals 100 damage if you only have 25 health. Ask anyone who plays DotA or LoL, mitigation without health is worthless, and health without mitigation is equally as worthless. Health and Mitigation go hand in hand with each other; plus there is the obvious oversight by some people here that health has no diminishing returns. One point of endurance gives the same amount of health no matter what (unless there are caps that I'm unaware of) as opposed to the diminishing returns given by the "tank stats". I'm definitely not saying to stack health without any mitigation stats, but there's no reason to not equally value health just as much as mitigation. Edited January 21, 2012 by Sykomyke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtenEQ Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I'm not. From my experiences the aforementioned person you are talking to is a pro thread-jacker. But I digress. I humbly argue that endurance and mitigation are equally valuable stats that are symbiotic in their relationship with one another. Take for example 100 health with 50% damage reduction (for simple math). Again an enemy that deals 2 damage per attack, I effectively can take 100 hits because of my mitigation. If you had the same mitigation but with 200 health, you can take twice as many hits. If you increase your mitigation to 75% then each point of health becomes that more "durable" and it would take twice as many hits to kill you. If you increase your actual health pool along with mitigation, your total EFFECTIVE health pool is increased. It does not good to have 75% damage reduction against an enemy who deals 100 damage if you only have 25 health. Ask anyone who plays DotA or LoL, mitigation without health is worthless, and health without mitigation is equally as worthless. Health and Mitigation go hand in hand with each other; plus there is the obvious oversight by some people here that health has no diminishing returns. One point of endurance gives the same amount of health no matter what (unless there are caps that I'm unaware of) as opposed to the diminishing returns given by the "tank stats". I'm definitely not saying to stack health without any mitigation stats, but there's no reason to not equally value health just as much as mitigation. Hence my inclusion of the needed survivability threshold in my post! And I know you're not quoting me there but for the sake of clarifying(or further muddling to the Muggles) the discussion. Of course they're not mutually exclusive, however once you're over the survivability threshhold, adding more isn't going to necessarily make your survive more. Edited January 21, 2012 by FtenEQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukibritches Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Ok I just have to chime in here. While I agree having enough endurance to survive an encounter is essential, stacking excess endurance is not more beneficial than pursuing gear with more mitigation. It simply comes down to this: A tank only needs to have enough health to survive enough hits before a healer can heal him up or top him off. Having more just means that you can survive another couple of hits before dying. Now assuming that these tanks are running with a group (as we all know they are) they only need enough health to prevent death before a healer can heal them. Having more health doesnt make a healers job any easier, it just means they have a little more time before they MUST heal you. Once a tank reaches what some refer to as the "Survivability Cap" there is absolutely no reason to stack additional endurance over mitigation stats. This still applies even with diminishing returns. As a tank if you mitigate more dmg it smooths out the rate at which your health drops, meaning less healing is required to keep you alive throughout the encounter. If you are taking endurance over mitigation then you are just creating a situation where your healer has to heal MORE due to the larger health pool and less mitigation. If instead you stack mitigation, you are less likely to get hit by the boss and you dont have a ridiculously large (and unnecessary) health pool. This obviously would result in your healers having to do less healing(stacking mitigation) as opposed to more healing (stacking endurance) TL;DR More Mitigation(even with diminishing returns) makes your healers lives easier, stacking endurance(past survivability cap) gives the appearance of making healers lives easier but in reality it does not. It can actually have the opposite effect, because you have more health to heal, but still get smashed by the boss. Edited January 21, 2012 by Dukibritches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FtenEQ Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Ok I just have to chime in here. While I agree having enough endurance to survive an encounter is essential, stacking excess endurance is not more beneficial than pursuing gear with more mitigation. It simply comes down to this: A tank only needs to have enough health to survive enough hits before a healer can heal him up or top him off. Having more just means that you can survive another couple of hits before dying. Now assuming that these tanks are running with a group (as we all know they are) they only need enough health to prevent death before a healer can heal them. Having more health doesnt make a healers job any easier, it just means they have a little more time before they MUST heal you. Once a tank reaches what some refer to as the "Survivability Cap" there is absolutely no reason to stack additional endurance over mitigation stats. This still applies even with diminishing returns. As a tank if you mitigate more dmg it smooths out the rate at which your health drops, meaning less healing is required to keep you alive throughout the encounter. If you are taking endurance over mitigation then you are just creating a situation where your healer has to heal MORE due to the larger health pool and less mitigation. If instead you stack mitigation, you are less likely to get hit by the boss and you dont have a ridiculously large (and unnecessary) health pool. This obviously would result in your healers having to do less healing(stacking mitigation) as opposed to more healing (stacking endurance) TL;DR More Mitigation(even with diminishing returns) makes your healers lives easier, stacking endurance(past survivability cap) gives the appearance of making healers lives easier but in reality it does not. It can actually have the opposite effect, because you have more health to heal, but still get smashed by the boss. ***Jokepostinc*** At least until we hit ICC right? -zinggggggg This is like the same post I made! Copycat! It is 100% true though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukibritches Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 ***Jokepostinc*** At least until we hit ICC right? -zinggggggg This is like the same post I made! Copycat! It is 100% true though. LOL ICC That only happened because Blizzard screwed themselves with the tanking stats, but yeah it made me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxDeeps Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) ... TL;DR More Mitigation(even with diminishing returns) makes your healers lives easier, stacking endurance(past survivability cap) gives the appearance of making healers lives easier but in reality it does not. It can actually have the opposite effect, because you have more health to heal, but still get smashed by the boss. Yes, that makes sense. But the choice isn't between mitigation and Endurance or the balance of the two. It's between Endurance and a small amount of Power. I understand you need offensive stats as a tank. You're useless as a punching bag if mobs aren't punching you because your threat is terrible. However, compared to the threat stats I am getting on the rest of my gear ~30 Power is next to nothing. Again, between the extra couple hundred health I could have if the tanking relics had pure Endurance or the small amount of Power I'm currently getting I would personally prefer the former. I'm not saying "I wish all the offensive stats on my gear were Endurance!" as much as some people's responses to my OP read like I did. I personally do not have problems with threat gen, either snap threat in FPs or long term in ops. Really, the amount of Power you are gaining and amount of Endurance you are potentially losing are both just drops in the bucket. However, as a tank I tend to think that if at any point one of those drops will make a difference it will be the Endurance and not the Power. Or to put it bluntly; I feel like it's more likely that I will die from a hit that wouldn't have killed me if I had a few hundred more health than say, our raid failing on a boss because a DPS pulled threat and died because I didn't have thirty-something more Power or if I (the tank) had had thirty-something more power the boss would've died but didn't. Also, if you're going to argue that threat stats are important and that amount of Endurance is negligible as you are past some nebulous "survivability cap" I would agree but still say pure Endurance is preferable as a raw stat on the relics specifically. This is because it's easy to change out Enhancements in your gear to your preferred stats. If you want to put in say, a crit/surge Enhancement for better threat you can. You have the option of sacrificing some Endurance and mitigation for your chosen offensive stats. So if you were to gain a lot of Endurance from a relic and decide you may have too much health you could swap an Enhancement on your gear for offensive stats and the net gain would be greater than if you were just getting the small amount of Power on the relic. Edited January 21, 2012 by MaxDeeps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batslav Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 since u dont get it ill say it again every piece of tanking gear gives more hp than the damage one why not relics ? what u gona say next that we dont need hp for pvp too ? coz the pvp relics are with wrong stats too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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