Is "interact with...X" and "kill...Y" really the best we can expect in 2012?

[Dee-Jay]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't expect SWTOR's questing experience to be vastly different from the established standards.

 

I find it perfectly acceptable that the majority of quests evolve around either killing a number of mobs, a specific mob or collecting various items.

 

But I do still look forward and enjoy those quests that don't follow the same model. A puzzle quest, a bombing run, some kind of mini-game etc. are all forms of alternative quests we've seen in modern (and not so modern) MMOs.

 

And yet despite all the context and story, ALL the quests in SWTOR follow the kill and/or collect formula. The Space game aside, is this really the pinnacle of quest design we can hope for from Bioware?

 

I mean we've seen so much better in their single-player games, why not take some of those concepts and adapt them to SWTOR.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[DarylMusashi]

This comes up in every MMORPG's forums. There are only so many ways to scramble eggs. Just how would you design different quests?

[ZanriI]

If you don't like how they do things send in a request of your own, the formula now obviously entertains the masses enough to keep going so that's what they're going with. As a business you don't go with radical new ideas unless you have the testing to back it up.

[Dee-Jay]

If you don't like how they do things send in a request of your own, the formula now obviously entertains the masses enough to keep going so that's what they're going with. As a business you don't go with radical new ideas unless you have the testing to back it up.

 

Well as I said, I was fine with the majority of quests following that formula.

 

But during Corellia's quest-line there is a quest where you're supposed to control a droid to open a blast-door. I was really hoping I might actually get to control the droid in some sort of mini-game. But alas, all I do is activate the console.

 

Bioware doesn't even have to be hugely original. Many other MMOs already offer much more diverse quests.

 

Here are some ideas:

 

-Have us hold off attackers in a speeder-bike race, similar to Return of the Jedi. The Speeder would follow a pre-set route while we get to use specific abilities to fend them off.

 

-Have us accompany or protect a character on his/her pre-set path towards a mission objective. Granted, with the bad and buggy AI in SWTOR, this might not be such a great idea, but maybe in the future.

 

-Have a turret-blasting mission, similar to what we see in the Wargame flashpoint. It would also be a welcome way to introduce players to the turret mechanic.

 

-Give us a cloaking device and have us do a stealth-mission that requires us to reach a certain objective without being detected

 

-Have us battle enemies while on a fast-moving platform, requring us to jump change platforms at the right time.

 

-Allow us to take control of a mighty combat droid and stop through a large number of puny enemies.

 

 

There's plenty more variants for stuff to do. Now I understand, with such an immature engine, it might be a lot to ask to have objects in motion as this tends to be very glitchy. But what bothers be more is that Bioware didn't even TRY anything more original.

[Xilax]

Well as I said, I was fine with the majority of quests following that formula.

 

But during Corellia's quest-line there is a quest where you're supposed to control a droid to open a blast-door. I was really hoping I might actually get to control the droid in some sort of mini-game. But alas, all I do is activate the console.

 

Bioware doesn't even have to be hugely original. Many other MMOs already offer much more diverse quests.

 

Here are some ideas:

 

-Have us hold off attackers in a speeder-bike race, similar to Return of the Jedi. The Speeder would follow a pre-set route while we get to use specific abilities to fend them off.

 

-Have us accompany or protect a character on his/her pre-set path towards a mission objective. Granted, with the bad and buggy AI in SWTOR, this might not be such a great idea, but maybe in the future.

 

-Have a turret-blasting mission, similar to what we see in the Wargame flashpoint. It would also be a welcome way to introduce players to the turret mechanic.

 

-Give us a cloaking device and have us do a stealth-mission that requires us to reach a certain objective without being detected

 

-Have us battle enemies while on a fast-moving platform, requring us to jump change platforms at the right time.

 

-Allow us to take control of a mighty combat droid and stop through a large number of puny enemies.

 

 

There's plenty more variants for stuff to do. Now I understand, with such an immature engine, it might be a lot to ask to have objects in motion as this tends to be very glitchy. But what bothers be more is that Bioware didn't even TRY anything more original.

 

Well do they really need to change anything? With so many "Oh I have a lightsabeeeer.. *mouth starts drooling and with wet red foggy eyes he is stairing at the the character on the screen dancing around* Th...this... [swosh] ...game...[pew & slash] ..is.. [swish] ..COMPLETE!"- people surrounding it they gonna make fortune on it anyway.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Xilax

[DrakePollard]

I totally agree with this. Forgive me, but I will have to use WoW as a comparison since it represents the "gold standard." I recall it wasn't until much later in WoW's history that the concept of more interactive quests began to arise, but since the model has already been explored by a past MMO, I was hoping that Bioware would have taken the time to implement things based on that model. I feel like they've done a great job in keeping the spirit alive of that classic Star Wars ambience, but they could have done much more in terms of quest interaction.

 

Just as an example, I came to Hoth expecting some sort of minigame quest in which Republic characters might be able to control snowspeeders and have to hook and circle Imperial walkers (along pre-set paths) and perhaps a generator-destroying mission for Imperials in which they could have controlled a walker with different abilities and whiped out hordes of small enemies until they reach range of the generator. This is just one example of a fairly simple idea that would mix questing up a bit and throw in some nostalgia at the same time.

[Darth_Beans]

Well do they really need to change anything? With so many "Oh I have a lightsabeeeer.. *mouth starts drooling and with wet red foggy eyes he is stairing at the the character on the screen dancing around* Th...this... [swosh] ...game...[pew & slash] ..is.. [swish] ..COMPLETE!"- people surrounding it they gonna make fortune on it anyway.

 

"Pew & Slash" = the name of my new band! Thank you!

Edited January 15, 2012 by Darth_Beans

[BrigOrion]

My solution is to find a table-top gaming group, thereby by-passing all the constraints of the video game medium.

[septembersphinx]

-Have us hold off attackers in a speeder-bike race, similar to Return of the Jedi. The Speeder would follow a pre-set route while we get to use specific abilities to fend them off.

 

-Have us accompany or protect a character on his/her pre-set path towards a mission objective. Granted, with the bad and buggy AI in SWTOR, this might not be such a great idea, but maybe in the future.

 

-Have a turret-blasting mission, similar to what we see in the Wargame flashpoint. It would also be a welcome way to introduce players to the turret mechanic.

 

-Give us a cloaking device and have us do a stealth-mission that requires us to reach a certain objective without being detected

 

-Have us battle enemies while on a fast-moving platform, requring us to jump change platforms at the right time.

 

-Allow us to take control of a mighty combat droid and stop through a large number of puny enemies.

 

I think it's a bit unfair to say that Bioware hasn't tried. Sur they could do more, but, at least on the republic side, I've seen several quests that are at least similar to what you're describing. Just off the top of my head (and I'm trying to be vague so that none of these qualify as spoilers):

 

On Nar Shadaa, there's a quest where you have to hold enemies away from a fixed point for a certain time period. If any of them get through, you fail.

 

On Tatooine there's a quest where you have to go lead around a band of several people and "train them to fight." ie kill sand people while keeping them from dying.

 

On Alderaan there's a similar quest where you have to go, fight someone, perform an action once they're weak but not dead, and then lead them off, preventing them from dying in the process.

 

There have been at least two points in the consular class quests where solving riddles/puzzles was an option (failing them resulted in fighting/penalties in the boss fight that were otherwise avoided)

 

The space missions offer minigames, the datacrons offer enough ledge jumping for me, and you mention that at least one of the flashpoints has something like what you're describing.

 

I agree that there could be more variation, but it's not fair to say that Bioware hasn't tried at all. Also as someone who plays the game on a less than ideal computer and without a mouse, I'm rather relieved that I don't have to try to jump onto moving ledges. The stationary ones are bad enough.

[Swatter]

I agree a little with the OP, but I think your expectations are a bit out of whack.

 

I played through the original KOTOR before TOR was released (KOTOR is considered one of the best SP RP games ever) and the quests are very similar (if packaged differently). Even in KOTOR your quests boiled down to killing x or retrieving y. Its not a mechanic that is easy to escape on a computer medium.

 

I think the sheer number of kill x and retrieve y quests needed to get through the main story is daunting and somewhat draining after awhile. That is the nature of the MMO peeking through.

 

Some of the suggestions (like the Hoth suggestions) show absolutely no understanding of game development. Those suggestions would take months and thousands of hours to implement and integrate (if not much more). You just don't dream up a quest and the next day it goes live. The quest designers must operate within the framework of what SWTOR is capable of doing.

 

Having said that- the developers I'm sure are working hard to expand the capabilities of SWTOR. It will take time, though (months/years). I think there will be lots of cool stuff on the horizon.

[KianTremayne]

I totally agree with this. Forgive me, but I will have to use WoW as a comparison since it represents the "gold standard." I recall it wasn't until much later in WoW's history that the concept of more interactive quests began to arise, but since the model has already been explored by a past MMO, I was hoping that Bioware would have taken the time to implement things based on that model. I feel like they've done a great job in keeping the spirit alive of that classic Star Wars ambience, but they could have done much more in terms of quest interaction.

 

Just as an example, I came to Hoth expecting some sort of minigame quest in which Republic characters might be able to control snowspeeders and have to hook and circle Imperial walkers (along pre-set paths) and perhaps a generator-destroying mission for Imperials in which they could have controlled a walker with different abilities and whiped out hordes of small enemies until they reach range of the generator. This is just one example of a fairly simple idea that would mix questing up a bit and throw in some nostalgia at the same time.

 

Well, the problem is that adding special mechanics (AKA mini-games) for a quest is a LOT of development work. WoW only really started adding them in Burning Crusade and later, when the engineers weren't so heavily occupied by building the core game systems and providing support for the first year or so (which is when the biggest, nastiest bugs tend to be found). Don't be surprised if they add a few quests with 'interesting' mechanics down the line, but doing all that work for the sake of one quest that a bunch of players will miss or skip anyway isn't the best use of developer time at this stage in the game's lifecycle. WoW tended to go the other way - once they'd built the mechanics, they over-used to the point where it seemed every third quest was a bombing run because gosh darn, we've added this feature to the game so we are going to use the heck out of it!

 

Also, please bear in mind that not every player likes mini-games. There's a school of thought that says this is my character, with the skills I've learned to use, and I want to use that rather than some sub-standard arcade game with an ew hotkey bar that has nothing to do with my character's skills, gear or training. Those players would be actively turned off by having too many 'special' quests in the game.

[mhsiao]

The thing is that is the best way to ensure everyone can do quest. There are people already complain how unfair is darth malgus fight because you need 2 knockback to defeat him. (Which took out some class out that flashpoint because no one to bring them.)

 

What else can you do to a quest? Wow added vehicle to quest /raid /pvp than turn out there are fair amount of players who hate it as well. (No one wanted to do Malygos, oculus and blizzard had to add more loot to encourage people to do it.)

Edited January 16, 2012 by mhsiao

[MustrumRidcully]

I believe the problem is that mini-games are still games. They cost a lot of development time - not the same as an entire MMO, of course, but still, it requires considerable effort.

 

I would not be suprised if we see more mini-games eventually.

 

Each of the Gathering skills, for example, could have their own mini-game. A Sabbac mini-game, a Speeder Bike mini-game.

 

But there is still the problem that these still aren't that many - you won't see a rich variety that allows every mission to have its own mini-game. So it will still seem somewhat repetitive.

[Bielduwyn]

That said, I'm grateful not every quest will have its own minigame, if I want a pileup of minigames I'll play Mario Party or Wario Ware. =p I play TOR to be a hero, if that involves diving in headlong and slaying a few dozen Imperials, sure thing!

[Dee-Jay]

That said, I'm grateful not every quest will have its own minigame, if I want a pileup of minigames I'll play Mario Party or Wario Ware. =p I play TOR to be a hero, if that involves diving in headlong and slaying a few dozen Imperials, sure thing!

 

I wouldn't get all that fixated on mini-games.

 

All I'm really asking for is quest variety.

 

Bioware seemed a lot more invested in some of their Operations-Fights, with added puzzles and mini-games. And yet we see none of that in the regular questing?

[drfumblez]

All I ask is for one quest where I use a Box to sneak past enemies as a Jedi Knight class story.

Life would be complete.

[Zunayson]

Yes, but in Kotor, they don't have a big mission log with a number, forcing you to do said quest. Here, there's so much repetitiveness because after you kill 5 wampas, you gotta fix 10 snow speeders. There's not reason to remember the 5 wampas you kill. They need to give you time to get accustomed to a big picture, so to speak. I remember deceiving Nemro, but can hardly/have no reason to remember folllowing a mouse droid as objective number 1,569 in my class quest storyline. I mean, MMO players (WARNING: generalizations ahead. If you are not over the age of 21, or this content is offensive, or illegal to view in your community, please do not continue!) just go to point A to point B in the ever-infinite line of grinding boars to 85. Or 50, or whatever the arbitrary number is. It would be nice to at least make the player do some things on their own. EXAMPLE: Alderaan spoiler end planet Agent:

 

 

One of the kinds/royalties was hiding behind a shield, but I didn't "have enough ordinance to destroy that!". About 2 minutes later, I found a clickable object "munitions", and proceeded to pick up a rocket launcher. No, they don't say Collect Rocket Launchers 0/5 NEXT STEP > Destroy shield generators.

 

 

 

 

Breaking the big picture into smaller puzzle pieces / objectives destroys the variance in the quest mechanics. With Nemro, you're not just interacting, you're finding a way to deceive him into joining the empire. That won't ever happen again. Ever. And if it does, it's easy to change. Not that Bioware would do that in the first place... By breaking it down into kill x thieves to get gifts to give to Nemro to gain loyalty of his adviser to collect y spice shipments... BAH my head hurts (And my fingers)! No variance, because it'll just happen again!

[Patizor]

All I'm really asking for is quest variety.

 

I agree. I like the kinds of things you're suggesting. There's one thing in this game that bears mentioning: Datacrons! Hunting those feels, to me, like a game within a game. I can understand why people don't like going after them, but when I'm after a datacron I feel almost like I'm back in "Tomb Raider".

[Dee-Jay]

I agree. I like the kinds of things you're suggesting. There's one thing in this game that bears mentioning: Datacrons! Hunting those feels, to me, like a game within a game. I can understand why people don't like going after them, but when I'm after a datacron I feel almost like I'm back in "Tomb Raider".

 

Yes, I agree Datacrons are awesome and they do prove that Bioware can and is creative in certain environments. Even their raid-encounters have more diversity and interesting mechanics.

 

But their quests?

 

Even vanilla WoW had the occasional "magic wand" quest that allowed you to do crazy stuff you normally couldn't do.