Why Expertise exists and how to "Fix" it

[technogecko]

There are a lot of threads about this of course, but I was brainstorming and wanted to put forth a new "solution" to this problem.

 

First, the reason it exists: Gear differentiation between PVE and PVP.

A lot of people of course know this already, but I see a bunch of people in threads who don't get it. Basically, the reason the differentiation needs to exist is so that the best PVP gear doesn't come from Operations and the best PVE gear doesn't come from Battlemaster boxes. This siloing is necessary to keep people in each camp from slitting each others throat over the issue. Even DAOC had an issue with this: Eventually you were trying to get gear from ToA and level up PVE artifacts to utilize in PVP BGs and the Frontiers. The hardcore PVP players could easily see this as a huge turn off or nuisance and turn instead to crafted gear with spellcrafting bonuses, which wasn't quite as good in most cases.

 

So how do we fix it? Right now, if everyone had all the best PVP gear, the damage buff and redux stats would cancel eachother out, and you would be left with a healing bonus only. What's the point? Additionally, until bracketing goes in place, expertise makes the gap between a 49 or fresh 50 and a geared 50 very large.

 

My solution is as follows:

 

All 50 PVP gear will have a stat called "Expertise".

All 50 PVE gear will have a stat called "Adventuring". (gear from Operations specifically, not the average run of the mill PVE gear)

 

Expertise: When in an Operation, all of your stats are reduced by 25%.

 

Adventuring: When in a PVP setting (warzone, ilum, duel initiated, etc), all of your stats are reduced by 25%.

 

This is of course an over simplification, but you get the idea: PVP gear will make you suck in endgame PVE, endgame PVE gear will make you suck in PVP. Problem solved... who in their right minds would use the wrong gear in the wrong situation? Of course a fresh 50 can use their 49-50ish level items they received near the end of their questing, or crafted level 50 gear, until they get the PVP gear and not receive the Adventuring debuff.

 

What do you think? I await the flames

Edited January 14, 2012 by technogecko

[SandTrout]

What you are saying is that you WANT to completely segregate the PvP and PvE communities. Is that correct?

 

If it is, I wholeheartedly and completely disagree with your goals and consider them destructive to the game and community. Preventing players from accessing half of the game because of idiot whiners on the forums is not a good thing.

 

Make the same gear available via either PvP or PvE, with reward rates adjusted to achieve roughly equal contribution to reward ratios.

[Kshahdoo]

As people in EVE say - carebears must suffer. I mean, EVE is one of the best pvp games so it's a good approach.

[Corpsevapor]

It would be better to simply make expertise a pve stat because think about it.

Expertise does everything you would need to progress in tiered raiding, more damage more armor more healing.

 

They don't need to increase all the other stats for any tiered set they should just make a pve stat and remove the pvp one.

 

If the only difference between pvp and pve gear was a pve stat then both groups could pvp together.

 

 

I would be happy with only visual and set bonus changes in higher teir sets of pvp gear.

[technogecko]

What you are saying is that you WANT to completely segregate the PvP and PvE communities. Is that correct?

 

If it is, I wholeheartedly and completely disagree with your goals and consider them destructive to the game and community. Preventing players from accessing half of the game because of idiot whiners on the forums is not a good thing.

 

Make the same gear available via either PvP or PvE, with reward rates adjusted to achieve roughly equal contribution to reward ratios.

 

I thought about gear unification, but it is very hard to quantify this on the PVP side.

 

For the sake of arguments, lets say you get a baseline of 2 pieces of gear per week from doing Operations with your guild. Obviously this is harder when you first start doing them, and easier as your guild's gear progression picks up steam. Even if you try to snap shot it at the average level of difficulty (your raid group is half geared and knows the fights decently), how do you set that bar for the rate you obtain those same 2 pieces of gear through PVP?

 

Do you just take a shot in the dark and say that doing a full Operation over the course of a week with your guild is the equivalent to doing 25 warzones and spending 5 hours in Ilum? Regardless if those numbers are correct or not, it seems nearly impossible to come up with something that would seem "fair" to the majority of players due to the differences between PVE and PVP content.

 

I suppose one solution would be to go the route of warhammer: Have commendations come from Warzones etc as is, but have the gear token/unassembled pieces drop from players corpses, ala raid boss drops?

Edited January 14, 2012 by technogecko

[karcyon]

Different PvE and PvP gear is a stupid idea to begin with!

[SandTrout]

*shrug* It's not going to be perfectly fair, but it wont require someone to do the gear grind twice simply because some sensitive ego on one side or the other is upset that someone got the same gear they did, but through an easier means. It's just plain jealousy at its worst, and indulging it isn't going to help anyone.

 

As for how to calculate out how to throttle PvP progression, the most obvious way would be to go just on time. 14 hours of PvP should award approximately similar rewards to 14 hours of doing operations. A lot of averaging around, but the result is still as fair as it can be.

 

If you wanted to be stingy, you could neck down the commendations earned by playing against a PUG as compared to a pre-made PvP team.

[Xaperion]

The problem isn't the gear. I don't know anyone who's complaining about getting killed on Illum by someone higher level or higher geared.

 

The problem was that the bolstering system was a big draw. Bioware allows lvl 10s to play against lvl 50s but only gives special pvp gear to the lvl 50s.

 

Um, stupid? Like seriously, has that guy been fired yet?

 

They can either have a expertise bracket for 50s (let the ones without expertise play with the rest of us, I say. I have no problem with that), or give expertise to the lower level gear.

[Microwavegerbil]

Or, they can do exactly as they've announced, and leave the gear alone and just give 50s their own bracket. Seriously, expertise exists to differentiate pvp and pve gear, and it succeeds in doing that. The exact maths with expertise and the warzone lvl buffing may need adjusting at some point in the future, but that is entirely besides the point. Once we have enough 50s, they will be bracketed off on their own.

 

The results will give pve'ers the best pve gear, pvp'ers the best pvp gear, and allow those leveling to pvp as much as they want. I don't see a problem? Maybe the level buffing in warzones could be tweaked so the low lowbies aren't a joke, but that's about it.

[Deymian]

The problem isn't the gear. I don't know anyone who's complaining about getting killed on Illum by someone higher level or higher geared.

 

The problem was that the bolstering system was a big draw. Bioware allows lvl 10s to play against lvl 50s but only gives special pvp gear to the lvl 50s.

 

Um, stupid? Like seriously, has that guy been fired yet?

 

They can either have a expertise bracket for 50s (let the ones without expertise play with the rest of us, I say. I have no problem with that), or give expertise to the lower level gear.

 

 

Man, you said it perfectly.....amen to that.

 

I will rant though, heck this is the QQ forum isn't it?

 

PvP SHOULD (I get the fact that it isn't) be about skill. I believe in this so much I would strip all gear from PvP and play it naked. Then and only then, would it be "fair". I also understand that most hardcore PvPers would be totally against this. Why? Because they lose their advantage. Cut and dry.

 

Gitty up!

[Markaine]

Having read countless other posts on this issue in the Rift forums I must admit I find it all so bloody irritating.

 

If you are a bolstered lvl 30..Do not expect to beat a lvl 50 1 on 1. Unless the skill differential is obscene.

 

If you want a game where a player's time investment,gear acquisition etc etc is worthless or worth so little as to make little difference against a new player, a levelling MMO is not for you. If you flatten that playing field there is no point in questing for the new light saber because it doesn't mean anything.

 

Everyone that buys an MMO has the same opportunities to develop their toon however they like-U want to compete with the 50s? Get lvld up to 50 and get the same gear as them and now you have your even playing field.

 

As for making equipment better or worse for PVP/PVE that idea is horrible imo- It just caters to elitists who want to keep their special unique snowflake status by raiding etc and dont like the idea of more casual players getting epics like them any other way.

 

Its like I have a Ferrari because I earn 250k a year-I dont want you to be able to buy a Ferrari by doing mega overtime because I wont be quite as special.

 

I post this from the point of view of one guy who has one lv 28 toon. I like PVP but predictably get my butt handed to me all the time. I dont mind though-I can earn my place on the *** kicking crew in time...What is the major problem???