Law-enforcement guilds

[Sivri]

I don't remember seeing a topic like this being brought up, but I have been pondering on this for a while.

 

What are peoples experiences with law-enforcement styled guilds, and is that something people would like to see come along in TOR as well as it has in other games?

Is it a niche kind of RP, or could it thrive?

 

Personally I don't mind guilds with that theme as long as they are run with sense, and within lore/setting. It also provides a natural contrast for the criminal guilds that might pop up, I know from experience that criminal RP loses some of it's spark if there are no law-enforcement role in the other end to induce consequences of the actions that you do.

As well as it doesn't make much sense that a criminal guild can run freely.

Though, in the cases where the law-enforcement guilds I've seen have stepped beyond what they should and directly caused the RP to turn dull because of too restrictive punishments, then it has an almost devastating effect on that particular area of the roleplay.

 

But what do others think?

[Guildrum]

I won't call the guild by name, but there was a guild in WoW that was the epicenter of a ton of drama on my RP server on WoW. I really don't know what happened, but there was at least 7 threads on the server forums dedicated to the drama, I don't even know what happened, but they RPed as Stormwind Guards, they apparently had a reputation for butting in on "shady deals" and "Slaughtered Lamb Tavern" RP (Which was a Warlock's bar, and warlocks/demon legalness was also a major source of drama), while they said that was their IC job.

 

I would welcome a Law-Enforcement guild, as long as they made sure that they only "jump in" on criminal RP only after telling the RPers you want to, and getting permission. This will save a lot of drama, tears and unwarranted bad blood.

 

If there is going to be Law-Enforcement guilds, it should be event based, with planned and organized crackdowns on organizations and the like, not an excuse to arrest everyone with that "Illegal Assault Cannon".

[Caladcrist]

I have played the role of the equivalent to a sherrif of Bree-land in LotRO for over three years now. The actual title of the position is Justice. The whole idea came about from other rpers and when an actual election was held, my character came in second to my great surprise and when the person who won decided not to take up the role, it fell to me. Thus I had the good fortune of having a large group of people, as I was told over 3000 votes were cast, buying into the idea from the very beginning.

 

The purpose of the role as I play it is to provide a venue for rp. Not for some odd attempt at self aggrandizement. The key to making it work like the OP said is to understand any attempt to try and compel anyone to take part in law/crime rp is foolish and doomed to fail. All rp have to be consensual and any time I have to sentence anyone, I discuss it with them OOC'ly and we agree on the sentence. The lore in LotRO is more restictive than here in TOR but we have managed to make it work since October of 08.

 

Whether a like idea would work here in TOR is an open question I think. There are far more people playing TOR than play LotRO and the rp community here is still in its infancy. Perhaps once communities are more settled and a lot of organic rp has occured, it will be easier to determine whether such an idea would have enough support to be viable.

[Remair]

I ended up running a local police guild in SWG and it was singly the most stressful time I have ever had roleplaying... or in a game for that matter. It *can* be fun, sometimes fantastic but there will always be stress and hassle.

 

The problem basicly stems from people seeing the police as a good source of quick RP when bored (which is fine) but not willing to follow it through. So they see the police enter and emote thinking "I sure hope they dont check me for spice"... then when the good RPer policemen ignore that they become more overt, talking out loud about their crimes and trying to get caught. Then inevitably fighting the police, getting kicked down and arrested. Then they quickly get bored and log out. Even more any attempt to apply a punishment leads to arguement... even if they are sentenced to a day imprisonment with police there at all times to RP with they will refuse. Many won't even want to come back to the police station so you're left "pretending" to arrest and process the criminal.

 

And that would happen several times a week. People purposefully get arrested then refuse the rule of "IC actions IC consequences" that was in place in the community. I lost track of the amount of hours I spent in talks with the communities leaders over people complaining two days of imprisonment is unfair for attempted murder. Eventually it drove me to quit, as it did my predecessor and everyone who came after me.

 

In hindsight what you need to do is organise things with criminal guilds much better. Talk to their leaders to organise crime sprees that you can investigate. Have it so the criminals try *not* to get caught. Say they break into a house to rob it, you show up an hour later and investigate. Maybe haul suspects in for questioning, interview witnesses and so on. People get much longer RP and if it is organised then the perpertrators know the punishment going in for if they get caught.

 

One thing we did do that worked well for us is use alts to hold events for large crime sprees. Alts that nobody cared if they went to jail or got shot and killed evadng capture. That way your guild members get fun of policework without the grief that always followed.

 

 

tl;dr I've been a leader of a police guild and it is incredibly stressful with the sheer amount of grief you will receive. Coordination with a criminal guild before any crimes is needed to keep everyone happy.

[Xontier]

Touchy subject. I've never ran a guard/police guild but in my early days I did join a few, and achieved officer status in one. To put it lightly... it sucked. A guard style guild can be great, but it takes a very special kind of person. Most people are pain in the *** annoyances that just like to give players a hard time. Most of them god-mode. I can't even count the number of times I've had a rogue/thief/stealth type character and even though not all of them were criminals, multiple times I was treated as such because the 'guard' meta-gamed my class, even when I was simply sitting there chatting with friends.

 

Like I said though, a guard guild can be a wonderful thing if handled correctly. Getting an alliance between a guard guild and criminal guild creates amazing RP but in my experience most people that join the guard guilds are griefers in the way that they meta-game information (such as somehow knowing I'm a rogue, even though the character I mentioned I never RP'd as a rogue or thief, just a normal person) and simply step in and cause a problem to simply escalate only to degrade into OOC insults because the person their harrassing isn't obeying their commands.

 

So yea, a guard guild can work. Sadly, most people can't make it work.

[Soultranna]

The trick with the police/guard guilds is, they tend to assume a position of power... when in fact, they're subject to the same market/social forces as the criminals.

 

On Nar Shaddaa, they answer to the Hutt Cartels, and if they work for one, they probably will run afoul of another. On Imperial worlds, all the 'law enforcement' on the planet can be subverted by one holocall from a high-ranking Sith to the police adjutant.

 

So roleplayers have to assume that their efforts to assert and maintain order will be met with ... resistance... and then roleplay as the "I'm just doing my job here" public official who knows darn well that they're probably not going to solve anything, or arrest anyone. They're there as a placeholder, and they need to not step out of place.

 

Why do it then?

 

Well... sometimes it's fun to provide a framework around the storyline/class quests. Not all BH's would be mercenary - they could be a police Special Weapons and Tactics unit instead. This could also apply to Troopers, or Imperial Agents.

 

For anyone that wants to roleplay as police, I would recommend that they watch TV shows like Flashpoint (for plots involving ordinary people pushed to extremes) or Law and Order (solving a crime that has already happened). The TJ ****** cop ego trip doesn't go over well.... but if you instead come across as someone trying to solve a puzzle, and let people play their characters alongside you, helping to advance the story (if not solve the crime), then it's much more fun.

 

One of my 'impromptu' RP routines on my Imperial Agent is a riff on "Barney Fife"... that insists on warning passersby of weapons carried in an unsafe manner, or contraband that would need to be stowed in ship's holds instead of carried out in the open, or riding speeders in densely-populated areas of the station. And then I go into the requirement of writing up a 'report', purely for bureacratic reasons of course.... can't give tickets to people... and as the RP progresses, more 'reports' have to be filed if, say, they threaten bodily harm, or wish to remove me from the premises, and so on and so on. At some point I'll pretend to call my supervisor... and it becomes clear that I'm posted on the station AWAY from his office on Dromund Kaas because I seem to have an obsession with "by the book" and as such, was too much of an annoyance for him! By this point, the other player is probably OOC laughing their *** off at the poor Imperial clerk who knows damn well that they're probably marked for death because they annoyed someone, but still doggedly insists on writing up a report on everything anyway because "thats what we do here".

[Hydranova]

The trick with the police/guard guilds is, they tend to assume a position of power... when in fact, they're subject to the same market/social forces as the criminals.

 

On Nar Shaddaa, they answer to the Hutt Cartels, and if they work for one, they probably will run afoul of another. On Imperial worlds, all the 'law enforcement' on the planet can be subverted by one holocall from a high-ranking Sith to the police adjutant.

 

So roleplayers have to assume that their efforts to assert and maintain order will be met with ... resistance... and then roleplay as the "I'm just doing my job here" public official who knows darn well that they're probably not going to solve anything, or arrest anyone. They're there as a placeholder, and they need to not step out of place.

 

Why do it then?

 

Well... sometimes it's fun to provide a framework around the storyline/class quests. Not all BH's would be mercenary - they could be a police Special Weapons and Tactics unit instead. This could also apply to Troopers, or Imperial Agents.

 

For anyone that wants to roleplay as police, I would recommend that they watch TV shows like Flashpoint (for plots involving ordinary people pushed to extremes) or Law and Order (solving a crime that has already happened). The TJ ****** cop ego trip doesn't go over well.... but if you instead come across as someone trying to solve a puzzle, and let people play their characters alongside you, helping to advance the story (if not solve the crime), then it's much more fun.

 

One of my 'impromptu' RP routines on my Imperial Agent is a riff on "Barney Fife"... that insists on warning passersby of weapons carried in an unsafe manner, or contraband that would need to be stowed in ship's holds instead of carried out in the open, or riding speeders in densely-populated areas of the station. And then I go into the requirement of writing up a 'report', purely for bureacratic reasons of course.... can't give tickets to people... and as the RP progresses, more 'reports' have to be filed if, say, they threaten bodily harm, or wish to remove me from the premises, and so on and so on. At some point I'll pretend to call my supervisor... and it becomes clear that I'm posted on the station AWAY from his office on Dromund Kaas because I seem to have an obsession with "by the book" and as such, was too much of an annoyance for him! By this point, the other player is probably OOC laughing their *** off at the poor Imperial clerk who knows damn well that they're probably marked for death because they annoyed someone, but still doggedly insists on writing up a report on everything anyway because "thats what we do here".

 

I suggest reading discworld books, especially pertaining to the City Watch. Vimes is a boss.

[Sivri]

I won't call the guild by name, but there was a guild in WoW that was the epicenter of a ton of drama on my RP server on WoW. I really don't know what happened, but there was at least 7 threads on the server forums dedicated to the drama, I don't even know what happened, but they RPed as Stormwind Guards, they apparently had a reputation for butting in on "shady deals" and "Slaughtered Lamb Tavern" RP (Which was a Warlock's bar, and warlocks/demon legalness was also a major source of drama), while they said that was their IC job.

 

I do believe I know which one you're talking about. A true sad sight, to be honest.

The realm I was on personally was one big chaos between half-decent guards and not-so-decent criminal guilds, both violating various RP rules like metagaming and such. I can mention unbreakable doors and fast-Resurrecting criminals, on each side respectively.

 

To me it sounds a lot like the area is very "Tried it, not funny" though I am still quite intrigued by the positive prospects of having a well-functioning guard-guild, though I would say that I'd rather not have one if the only option for one would be something that metagames horribly.

There's nothing more destructive towards plots really, I've seen a fair few of my own go down the drain as a result of someone metagaming. If only it didn't spread so fast >.<

[PISTOLcm]

Moon Guard was being Moon Guard.

 

Best RP in WoW, but with that also comes with the worst drama

[Battletank]

I do believe I know which one you're talking about. A true sad sight, to be honest.

The realm I was on personally was one big chaos between half-decent guards and not-so-decent criminal guilds, both violating various RP rules like metagaming and such. I can mention unbreakable doors and fast-Resurrecting criminals, on each side respectively.

 

To me it sounds a lot like the area is very "Tried it, not funny" though I am still quite intrigued by the positive prospects of having a well-functioning guard-guild, though I would say that I'd rather not have one if the only option for one would be something that metagames horribly.

There's nothing more destructive towards plots really, I've seen a fair few of my own go down the drain as a result of someone metagaming. If only it didn't spread so fast >.<

 

I have to second the opinion of the person that stated folks will pick on a law enforcement guild for "quick RP".

 

I will emphasize that it is not the guild, or how well it is run, or how drama-free it is that will be the problem. It is all of the idjits who will be targeting you, and how you can't tell that they are idjits until it is too late.

 

Your guild will be a bantha-drawn cart that will have one fantastic bantha pulling you straight ahead responsibly and with perfect reliability. Your other bantha will be a derp-eyed drooling lame and limping bantha constantly trying to drag that cart off to one side. No matter how great your dependable bantha is, it will get pulled to the side eventually.

 

JED

Edited January 16, 2012 by Battletank

[Bobinator]

Yea Moon Guard had..."The Stormwind Guard"....that was uhm...bad.

 

I think law enforcement guilds dont really work well as there is a ton of places to go and sometimes those places dont have RP (maybe if you make something like the Kaas Regulator's...it'll be stationed in Kaas where people might be too busy leveling not wanting to RP)

Edited January 17, 2012 by Bobinator

[Sacredless]

To my knowledge, there is no other thread about law-enforcement guilds. You gain +1 internet. My experience with law enforcement guilds is quite bad. I'd like to see one done well. Potentially, it could thrive, if there is a centric group for their jurisdiction.

 

Below, there is a piece of text that serves as a response to the MVPs of this thread. For TL;DR, skip to the paragraph called ‘Summary’.

 

IN/OUT CHARACTER ETTIQUETE

It's important to note that there is a difference between being a police officer, being riot control and being a soldier. Many people in World of Warcraft thought that the two were interchangeable.

 

As a police officer, it's important that you have proof of someone's crime. Without proof, you cannot confront them with it. For example, there was a situation once that could be comparable with this;

 

A chiss envoy walks into a base's home and browses the armory for guns. He takes out a hand-blaster and walks out. Two officers, me and someone else, see this. The other officer walks up to the Chiss and demands; "Put that back, that's not yours." The chiss, however, argued that he was allowed to do this. If you are saying that someone -is- doing something wrong and will be taken in, they will naturally resist. It’s paramount that you avoid an IC argument with someone, because the player will nearly always determine that his character is –not– going to comply. Instead, you must compromise.

 

So, the other officer shooed away his colleague, apologized before the envoy and explained to him the extent of the situation. The place is an armoury and normally forbidden to enter for anyone but Riot Control. The gun he is taking is property of the Emperor. However, despite the gravity of the situation, the officer allows him to take the gun, after which he asks when it will be returned. He places a tracer on it and writes a report for his superiors. The Chiss agrees to all this and both RPers walk away happily ever after. You can follow up on the situation or not.

 

Another good example is given by Soultranna;

One of my 'impromptu' RP routines on my Imperial Agent is a riff on "Barney Fife"... that insists on warning passersby of weapons carried in an unsafe manner, or contraband that would need to be stowed in ship's holds instead of carried out in the open, or riding speeders in densely-populated areas of the station. And then I go into the requirement of writing up a 'report', purely for bureacratic reasons of course.... can't give tickets to people... and as the RP progresses, more 'reports' have to be filed if, say, they threaten bodily harm, or wish to remove me from the premises, and so on and so on.

Police is not allowed to give out death penalties. ‘Then pay with your blood’ is something that simply doesn’t happen on a regular basis. Not even in the medieval period. Only heavily corrupt regimes do this and even then, they don’t do it every time people don’t rub you well.

 

PUNISHMENT AND COMMUNICATION

The purpose of the role as I play it is to provide a venue for rp. Not for some odd attempt at self aggrandizement. The key to making it work like the OP said is to understand any attempt to try and compel anyone to take part in law/crime rp is foolish and doomed to fail. All rp have to be consensual and any time I have to sentence anyone, I discuss it with them OOC'ly and we agree on the sentence. The lore in LotRO is more restictive than here in TOR but we have managed to make it work since October of 08.

May I quote you on this? Having a life testimony like this is perfect.

The problem basicly stems from people seeing the police as a good source of quick RP when bored (which is fine) but not willing to follow it through. So they see the police enter and emote thinking "I sure hope they dont check me for spice"... then when the good RPer policemen ignore that they become more overt, talking out loud about their crimes and trying to get caught. Then inevitably fighting the police, getting kicked down and arrested. Then they quickly get bored and log out. Even more any attempt to apply a punishment leads to arguement... even if they are sentenced to a day imprisonment with police there at all times to RP with they will refuse. Many won't even want to come back to the police station so you're left "pretending" to arrest and process the criminal.

This too is an excellent life testimony. It’s like a reversal of what the quote above says; ‘trying to compel anyone to take part in law-crime RP is foolish’. Roleplayers need to keep in mind not to make things mechanical just because they are bored. But the fact is that they do. My advice would be to indeed make contact beforehand. Hell, when the /roll commands come along, you can agree to make a roll to determine whether the officer has noted. That should be a good way to keep people from enticing and inciting the police officers.

 

But then, I’m always an advocate of using the d20 mechanics in about every situation, so, you know.

 

An example of a punishment that I gave when I was a night elf priestess on a private server, was fasting. I forced someone who admitted to have committed illegal mercenary work to fasten. Instead of being forced to suffer permanent damage or try and enforce a serious punishment, I gave them a possibility to add a temporary quirk to their character. It worked that time, but not another; so always make sure you communicate.

 

POLITICS AND POLICIES

I have played the role of the equivalent to a sherrif of Bree-land in LotRO for over three years now. The actual title of the position is Justice. The whole idea came about from other rpers and when an actual election was held, my character came in second to my great surprise and when the person who won decided not to take up the role, it fell to me. Thus I had the good fortune of having a large group of people, as I was told over 3000 votes were cast, buying into the idea from the very beginning.

I really, really, really like the idea of an election of office, rather than being appointed by the guildleader. Popularity contest or no, I think that the benefits greatly outweigh the losses.

 

The people that get elected obviously have the majority of the community behind them. Because it’s democratic, the people are more likely to agree with the decisions of the sheriff, as long as they stay true to their job description.

 

It motivates the ‘sheriff’ to be politically correct. Normally, people do not feel the pressure of the spotlight in such roles, allowing them to misbehave. However, if they receive this as a ‘reward’ for good behaviour, they will become more of an authority.

 

It also motivates people to let themselves be heard to the guildleader. If they feel that their ‘rights’ are violated as he described before the election, he can step in and replace the sheriff with the next favourite.

The trick with the police/guard guilds is, they tend to assume a position of power... when in fact, they're subject to the same market/social forces as the criminals.

 

On Nar Shaddaa, they answer to the Hutt Cartels, and if they work for one, they probably will run afoul of another. On Imperial worlds, all the 'law enforcement' on the planet can be subverted by one holocall from a high-ranking Sith to the police adjutant.

 

So roleplayers have to assume that their efforts to assert and maintain order will be met with ... resistance... and then roleplay as the "I'm just doing my job here" public official who knows darn well that they're probably not going to solve anything, or arrest anyone. They're there as a placeholder, and they need to not step out of place.

So, essentially, you are saying that police officers are simply representatives of someone else, right? I like that idea. It ties in well with one of the conclusions on politics; the police officers answer to a singular leader and are forced to emulate him at all times or face the consequences. Of course, how successful they are is a matter of roleplay. Adds a nice dimension.

 

SUMMARY

There are three points that are important to this thread so far;

 

• When you are a guard, make sure that you stick to an IC and OOC etiquette. The kind of business you are dealing with is highly inflammatory. Try to reach compromises or give friendly advices. Don’t ‘enforce’ things.
  
• When you are about to take action against someone, always make sure that you communicate beforehand about the consequences. Without it, you are most likely to get in trouble.
  
• When you do this in a guild or an alliance of guilds, electing people in an OOC fashion is a fairly failsafe way to support healthy communication and etiquette.
  

 

 

ADDITIONAL TIPS

 

• Watch other lawkeepers. Their methods might rub off on you. Or maybe you have tips for them.
  
• When on duty, have at least one colleague to work with to ask him for advice. Hell, you can do a little good-cop-bad-cop.
  

[Bobinator]

I also have to take the other person into account...get a basis with the person in tells like "Hey...you broke a law...let me arrest you and it'll be fun RP."

 

The problem with law enforcement RP is that they just come out of no where and go YOU'RE UNDER ARREST (Stormwind Guard style) and then the arrestee just god mods the way out of it all by being like LOL NO DODGE DODGE DODGE!

 

 

SO PLEASE Talk to the person first if you plan on arresting....talk to the people there and bring in a few more regulators/arbites/police/gestapo etc etc

Edited January 17, 2012 by Bobinator