Shadow Tank DEF/Shield/Absorb

[Dracyula]

I will start by saying that shield/absorb rely on each other to be effective, which is pretty obvious. It may not be obvious to everyone, but they are most effective when they are equal to each other.

 

It is also obvious that defense percentage is much more effective since it mitigates all of the damage, instead of a portion. For example 20% defense is equal to 40% shield and 40% absorb combined.

 

I am working on a formula that will allow you to decide what stat is more valuable to add with your current stats, unfortunately I do not know the rate of diminishing returns (if anyone has this it would be a tremendous help).

 

That being said, I will explain my current stats (level 38), and why 1 point of absorb will add more mitigation than a point of DEF or shield.

 

My base stats are as follows. Note: I use the kinetic ward buff in the base, as it should always be up.

 

DEF 228 = 9.12% + 16%(base) = 25.12%

Shield 43 = 3.44% + 35%(base) = 38.44%

Absorb 22 = 3.08% + 24%(base) = 27.08%

 

First, I will discuss total mitigation.

 

DEF provides 25.12% mitigation since it stops all incoming damage when you deflect/parry.

 

The mitigation provided by Shield/Absorb is 38.44*27.08 which equals 10.41%.

 

So, my total mitigation is 35.53%

 

Now, let's talk about value per point added.

 

With my current values, DEF adds .04% of defense percent per point, Shield adds .08% of shield percent per point and Absorb adds .14% of absorb percent per point. This is where I need hard numbers on diminishing returns to have an accurate formula as I add stats.

 

With these stats and the current rate of return, adding absorb will give me the biggest bang for my buck.

 

For example,

20 absorb will increase my total mitigation to 36.61%

20 DEF will increase my total mitigation to 36.33%

20 shield will increase my total mitigation to 35.96%

 

So, does anyone have the formula to figure out diminishing returns for DEF, Absorb, and Shield, so I can be more accurate with my calculations?

 

Thanks,

 

D

[Karyia]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=425

[Berlik]

I will start by saying that shield/absorb rely on each other to be effective, which is pretty obvious. It may not be obvious to everyone, but they are most effective when they are equal to each other.

 

It is also obvious that defense percentage is much more effective since it mitigates all of the damage, instead of a portion. For example 20% defense is equal to 40% shield and 40% absorb combined.

 

I am working on a formula that will allow you to decide what stat is more valuable to add with your current stats, unfortunately I do not know the rate of diminishing returns (if anyone has this it would be a tremendous help).

 

That being said, I will explain my current stats (level 38), and why 1 point of absorb will add more mitigation than a point of DEF or shield.

 

My base stats are as follows. Note: I use the kinetic ward buff in the base, as it should always be up.

 

DEF 228 = 9.12% + 16%(base) = 25.12%

Shield 43 = 3.44% + 35%(base) = 38.44%

Absorb 22 = 3.08% + 24%(base) = 27.08%

 

First, I will discuss total mitigation.

 

DEF provides 25.12% mitigation since it stops all incoming damage when you deflect/parry.

 

The mitigation provided by Shield/Absorb is 38.44*27.08 which equals 10.41%.

 

So, my total mitigation is 35.53%

 

Now, let's talk about value per point added.

 

With my current values, DEF adds .04% of defense percent per point, Shield adds .08% of shield percent per point and Absorb adds .14% of absorb percent per point. This is where I need hard numbers on diminishing returns to have an accurate formula as I add stats.

 

With these stats and the current rate of return, adding absorb will give me the biggest bang for my buck.

 

For example,

20 absorb will increase my total mitigation to 36.61%

20 DEF will increase my total mitigation to 36.33%

20 shield will increase my total mitigation to 35.96%

 

So, does anyone have the formula to figure out diminishing returns for DEF, Absorb, and Shield, so I can be more accurate with my calculations?

 

Thanks,

 

D

 

 

I heard that alot of people are having issues with shadow tanking , cus the shield / absord sucks and the kinectic thing blows *** for aoe pulls

[Dracyula]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=425

 

While this is helpful, I was unable to find a formula that includes diminishing returns when figuring how much DEF % is added by each point of DEF (same with shield and absorb).

 

D

[contrebasse]

Try here : http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

 

Defense Chance % = 5 + 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( DefenseRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.55 ) )

Shield/Glance Chance % = BonusOnSheildGenerator + 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( GlanceRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.32 ) )

Shield/Glance Absorption % = BonusOnShieldGenerator + 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( AbsorbtionRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.18 ) )

[xlDARKSIDElx]

I heard that alot of people are having issues with shadow tanking , cus the shield / absord sucks and the kinectic thing blows *** for aoe pulls

 

Really, from what I have been hearing Shadow tanks have been doing pretty good. Much better then the Guardian from what I hear. Since we have so much absorb it has been healing soak a lot of damage. Anyways, I have had no real issues so far.

[MithrilSoul]

Really, from what I have been hearing Shadow tanks have been doing pretty good. Much better then the Guardian from what I hear. Since we have so much absorb it has been healing soak a lot of damage. Anyways, I have had no real issues so far.

 

The problem is that your Kinetic Ward only gives you 8 charges within a 20 second period. If you have 4 or 5 mobs pounding on you, then you are going to use up those 8 charges very quickly...in other words, before the 20s cooldown on Ward allows you to activate it again.

 

Which means for a good portion of the combat, instead of fighting with a 35% shield chance, you are fighting with only a 20% shield chance. That's the issue.

[oddmyth]

While this is helpful, I was unable to find a formula that includes diminishing returns when figuring how much DEF % is added by each point of DEF (same with shield and absorb).

 

D

 

You need to look here:

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Sith-Assassin-Jedi-Shadow-Tanking-Compendium

 

Defense is good up til about 24-25%, after that shield/absorb til mid 40's each. After those have been reached you get about the same dimret for everything.

[Kitru]

Really, from what I have been hearing Shadow tanks have been doing pretty good. Much better then the Guardian from what I hear. Since we have so much absorb it has been healing soak a lot of damage. Anyways, I have had no real issues so far.

 

Numbers. Look at my analysis, not Syko's. He doesn't actually do any math. VGs/PTs and Juggs/Guards are done on the first page, and I just did the Shadow math today. The overall conclusion is that, assuming Stasis is a multiplicative rather than additive bonus, Shadows have the best mitigation on single targets and the worst mitigation on multiple targets but not so much that gear customization and playstyle making a bigger difference. If Stasis *is* additive and not multiplicative, we're only on-par while KW is up and drastically behind without it (10% and 7% more than VGs and Guards, respectively).

 

There are obviously some balance issues and it really only comes down to 2 variables: CDs (Guards have the worst thanks to terrible CDs, VGs have the best for melee/ranged (Oil Slick's uptime and contribution rations are friggin' *insane* considering VGs have the best average passive mitigation), and Shadows have the best overall) and Stasis (if the armor talent buffs are additive, Stasis needs to be increased to a 50% armor buff to give us the benefit that it would have as a multiplicative buff).

[Dracyula]

The problem is that your Kinetic Ward only gives you 8 charges within a 20 second period. If you have 4 or 5 mobs pounding on you, then you are going to use up those 8 charges very quickly...in other words, before the 20s cooldown on Ward allows you to activate it again.

 

Which means for a good portion of the combat, instead of fighting with a 35% shield chance, you are fighting with only a 20% shield chance. That's the issue.

 

I would like to note that the CD for kinetic ward is 12 seconds, the buff lasts for 20 seconds.

[Garbald]

Does anyone know if monster do use none weapon dmg abilities?

Because those completely bypass the shield.

[PhoenixMatrix]

Numbers. Look at my analysis, not Syko's. He doesn't actually do any math. VGs/PTs and Juggs/Guards are done on the first page, and I just did the Shadow math today. The overall conclusion is that, assuming Stasis is a multiplicative rather than additive bonus, Shadows have the best mitigation on single targets and the worst mitigation on multiple targets but not so much that gear customization and playstyle making a bigger difference. If Stasis *is* additive and not multiplicative, we're only on-par while KW is up and drastically behind without it (10% and 7% more than VGs and Guards, respectively).

 

There are obviously some balance issues and it really only comes down to 2 variables: CDs (Guards have the worst thanks to terrible CDs, VGs have the best for melee/ranged (Oil Slick's uptime and contribution rations are friggin' *insane* considering VGs have the best average passive mitigation), and Shadows have the best overall) and Stasis (if the armor talent buffs are additive, Stasis needs to be increased to a 50% armor buff to give us the benefit that it would have as a multiplicative buff).

 

All that doesn't give all the story though. With the majority of the "endgame" PvE content in the game being the hardmode Flashpoints where, if the things that need to be interrupted are interrupted your healer will fall asleep healing the tank (and really are only there to heal the damage dealers: otherwise a DPS with healing would do the job just fine in its place), damage mitigation is largely irrelevent most of the time.

 

I'd be a lot more interested by which tanks do better at controlling a fight and at dealing damage. Take a shadow tanking the last boss of False Emperor for example. Aside for being in combat technique and using the damage mitigation cycle, you really want to being doing as much damage as possible to make the fight fast, as you will basically self heal faster than the boss will take you down (with a few exceptions at key points in the fight).

 

Now if one of the tank classes does EVERYTHING better, there's a balance issue. But if its just mitigation...its probably fine.

[Dracyula]

Try here : http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

 

Defense Chance % = 5 + 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( DefenseRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.55 ) )

Shield/Glance Chance % = BonusOnSheildGenerator + 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( GlanceRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.32 ) )

Shield/Glance Absorption % = BonusOnShieldGenerator + 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( AbsorbtionRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.18 ) )

 

I must be doing something wrong here. I used:

 

=5+30*(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^((228/38)/0.55)) in excel and got 14.27. If this formula is correct, shouldn't it equal what my defense percent shows on my character screen?

[Kitru]

Now if one of the tank classes does EVERYTHING better, there's a balance issue. But if its just mitigation...its probably fine.

 

VGs do markedly more damage than the other tanks for one very simple reason: they have no high threat attacks and yet maintain the same amount of threat. Not a single one of their attacks has the high threat mod and yet they are just as capable of generating the same threat as a Shadow or Guard.

 

As to controlling the situation, Guards have both a charge (Storm), a pull (Harpoon), and the ability to function as a tank for up to 30m away from the target (not optimally, but still have appreciable functionality). Guards have only the charge and Shadows have only the pull. Neither has the ability to function effectively at appreciable distance away from their target (the 10m range on Shadow abilities does not allow them to fulfill the "effectively" or "appreciably" requirements of that statement). Overall, VGs have better mitigation, better damage, and better playability.

 

Honestly, all three of the tanks, in order to fulfill the same functionality (tanking) should within appreciably similar categories for each of these roles: mitigation, damage, and utility. I single out mitigation since it represents one of the most easily quantifiable differences. Quantifying damage dealt is going to be difficult without combat logs, and it's functionally impossible to really quantify utility. The lack of ability to quantify these other 2 values at this time means that it's difficult to convince the developers that they are really issues (since, in my experience dealing with game devs, the only thing that you can really use to convince them they screwed up is math and numbers since numbers are generally immune to bias, at least when presented properly).

 

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that all of the tanks have *identical* survivability, but they should all be within similar realms of effectiveness: with the weakness of our armor thanks to Stasis's additive rather than multiplicative nature, we are noticeably *behind* the other tanks where mitigation is concerned (10% and 7% more damage overall is well beyond the range of similar capabilities, especially when you're talking about situations where incoming damage is functionally multiplied).

[Dracyula]

You need to look here:

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Sith-Assassin-Jedi-Shadow-Tanking-Compendium

 

Defense is good up til about 24-25%, after that shield/absorb til mid 40's each. After those have been reached you get about the same dimret for everything.

 

"For survivability, as all tanking gear comes with large amounts of Endurance by default, survivability is best gained with Absorption, Defence and Shield. The ratios to use vary depending on your overall budget of points to spread around, but it is recommended that a ratio of Defence:Absorb:Shield of 3:1:0 is used until you have roughly 650-700 points, at which point, a roughly 5:3:1 ratio should be used for continued upgrades."

 

This quote from your link is very helpful assuming it is accurate.

 

Defense is good up til about 24-25%, after that shield/absorb til mid 40's each. After those have been reached you get about the same dimret for everything.

 

This statement also helps, but assumes that shield/absorb suffer from the same diminishing returns, which is not the case.

 

Of all three stats, absorb suffers the least from diminishing returns, therefore 45 absorb / 40 shield will take significantly less stat points to reach than 45 shield / 40 absorb.

 

I am looking for specific formulas so I can simply put my numbers in an equation and quickly determine which stat will provide the most benefit/point based on my current stats.

 

D

[Dracyula]

As to controlling the situation, Guards have both a charge (Storm), a pull (Harpoon), and the ability to function as a tank for up to 30m away from the target (not optimally, but still have appreciable functionality). Guards have only the charge and Shadows have only the pull. Neither has the ability to function effectively at appreciable distance away from their target (the 10m range on Shadow abilities does not allow them to fulfill the "effectively" or "appreciably" requirements of that statement). Overall, VGs have better mitigation, better damage, and better playability.

 

Are you forgetting about force speed, or is that not what you are talking about with charge? I am not familiar with the other classes.

 

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that all of the tanks have *identical* survivability, but they should all be within similar realms of effectiveness: with the weakness of our armor thanks to Stasis's additive rather than multiplicative nature, we are noticeably *behind* the other tanks where mitigation is concerned (10% and 7% more damage overall is well beyond the range of similar capabilities, especially when you're talking about situations where incoming damage is functionally multiplied).

 

Did you confirm that stasis is additive?

 

D

[Kitru]

Are you forgetting about force speed, or is that not what you are talking about with charge? I am not familiar with the other classes.

 

Storm and Force Leap are what I refer to as "charges": they deal damage, interrupt, immobilized, are on shorter CDs, and immediate bring you into melee with the targeted enemy from up to 30m away. Force Speed is a short duration speed buff: it's got more general utility but, from an actual tanking/DPS standpoint, doesn't hold a candle to a charge like the given ones (getting knocked back by a boss, getting into melee quickly).

 

Did you confirm that stasis is additive?

 

Yes. I looked at my armor, turned off, totaled up the value (2272 with my current gear), determined that there was a 20% increase from the given values without Combat Technique on (2726 listed on my Character Screen), and discovered when I turned CT on that the armor value was only 230% (6266 total armor listed as opposed to 6816 that I would have expected if they were multiplicative). It still leaves us further behind the other tanks where armor ratings are concerned, but it closes the gap such that it's not nearly the massive difference that it would be otherwise.