Matte_Black Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Your alternative is designing encounters that assume players with very little information about their performance can still succeed. Any encounter designed that way is going to be very easy to complete, which is great -- I'm all for there being content that is accessible to large amounts of players. But I'm also for challenging content existing for players that want to be challenged, and you simply can't design content that's intended to challenge players and then not give them the ability to assess and adjust their performance accordingly. If easy content doesn't require logs, that's fantastic, since most players don't use them, even in games that have them. But hard content will require logs, at least for those of us who a) aren't able to magically defeat an encounter without knowing how we're doing or b) are unwilling to beat our heads against the wall until the RNG breaks just right and we win by accident. The existence of combat logs does not preclude the existence of easy content. WoW is a perfect example of that. Its current raid implementation let essentially any player join a raid to kill the final boss of the game within a week of the release of that content. The thing is that the extra add-on play aids only end up broadening that skill gap in practice. It gives the clueless another area to be clueless in and another area of expertise to raise the the skilled/prepared player even further above them. The tools actually make scaling the game more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekknikal Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) We need combat logs for EVERYONE. When the whole raid dies because someone did or didn't do something, we NEED to be able to know who isn't doing their job right so it can be corrected. NOT to kick them out or berate them. When doing a new fight that there is no information on yet, being able to analyze the combat log allows people to determine exactly what killed the group, exactly how the boss fight works. It isn't a matter of personal pride or giving a crap about who gets to go on some 4 man group. If the world operated with no kind of analysis or data, we as a people would not get ANYWHERE and improvement would be close to nonexistent. Edited January 17, 2012 by tekknikal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamanx Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ah that must be why every raider in WoW has got a full clear of Dragon Soul Heroic right? I mean how could they not with all the tools they have available to hold their hand and play the game for them?!? Every Raider!?? Are you sure ?? There is a lot of raiders still 5\8 HC till now , do u know that ??? go check wowprogress .com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamanx Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 we need combat logs for everyone. When the whole raid dies because someone did or didn't do something, we need to be able to know who isn't doing their job right so it can be corrected. When doing a new fight that there is no information on yet, being able to analyze the combat log allows people to determine exactly what killed the group, exactly how the boss fight works. It isn't a matter of personal pride or giving a crap about who gets to go on some 4 man group. If the world operated with no kind of analysis or data, we as a people would not get anywhere and improvement would be close to nonexistent. +10000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Every Raider!?? Are you sure ?? There is a lot of raiders still 5\8 HC till now , do u know that ??? go check wowprogress .com Whooooooooosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 But you're making an assumption that says Bioware WILL do that. They might not. Take WoW. At one point, WoW did have to develop encounters around mods, but then they began breaking mods that made raiding too easy and went back to designing encounters that anyone could beat without mods. Being that Bioware can learn from Blizzard's past, they can skip the part where they design encounters around mods and go right to the point of limiting what mods can do so that they can design encounters for everyone. That's a big thing a lot of anti-mod people miss, they talk about WoW's old days when mods were out of control but fail to mention that those days have been gone for over half a decade at this point. Just because Bioware may follow a similar road doesn't mean they have to hit the same potholes Blizzard did. They can see where Blizzard hit the pot holes and avoid them. Blizzard develops their encounters around mods. They even built a threat meter into their own UI and spent several content patch cycles trying to fix threat afterward. If an addon/meter/mod is used commonly, the devs have to design around it. To ignore it would mean the content will be too easy and the vocal minority of supposed "hardcore" players will give them the proverbial black eye for it. There are some players that just cannot be made happy. They cry if there are no addons. They cry if there are no damage meters. The developer caves and lets them have them, then they'll cry that the game is too easy now that they have their training wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorrigTS Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Uhh... I just want a combat log. Last I checked they don't do any of the playing for you. If you have a combat log that does that please gimme so I can /sleep and get phat lewts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Blizzard develops their encounters around mods. They even built a threat meter into their own UI and spent several content patch cycles trying to fix threat afterward. If an addon/meter/mod is used commonly, the devs have to design around it. To ignore it would mean the content will be too easy and the vocal minority of supposed "hardcore" players will give them the proverbial black eye for it. There are some players that just cannot be made happy. They cry if there are no addons. They cry if there are no damage meters. The developer caves and lets them have them, then they'll cry that the game is too easy now that they have their training wheels. I raided WotLK level content with a completely vanilla UI for weeks because I was too lazy to mod-up after a long hiatus from WoW years ago. Cata content is even easier than WotLK content was, so you can definitely raid Cata without mods. The game might have had built in threat meters, but I sure as hell never turned them on or noticed them. As I said, the days of mods being out of control ended over FIVE YEARS AGO. Yes, those days sucked, which is why they ended. Come on dude, it's been 5 years, we can let it go. Limited modding doesn't harm anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I never once said I feared data. I simply laugh at people saying that the tool is essential to spot leechers in the current content. I've also been raid leader and raided 5 years. I also don't bot. You're pretty presumptuous.What game were you raid leader in? Stop saying that something is impossible if you can't do it. Others can.All the raids you must have raid led must have been boring as hell, everybody able to just line up in a nice little row so you could watch their animations to make sure they were all doing the right thing. Except of course we both know that's a load of bull don't we? I can however understand if you want to kill mobs in 4 minutes instead of 5 minutes. If you have such short patience, I can't change you.It's not an issue of patience, it's an issue of efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 For each player that will use combat logs and DPS meters well and for a good reason, there are many players that will use them as exclusionary devices to segment the population. Two years from now, when you guys are complaining that TOR's playerbase is just as horrid as WoWs and people want 25k DPS and 5.7 minute heroic clears, don't come crying to me. At that point, I'll tell you, "hey, you got your meters - we tried to tell you what they would do to the community, enjoy." What planet do people live on where people aren't turds until a tool is added? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The only time I've been "low" on the meters was when I was bringing an alt up to speed. On my main character, I'm usually always at the top. I know how to play - I also know how to spot others that are slacking. Which interestingly enough is something you never could have known without a dps meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 First boss kills vanilla did not require meters, boss mods and alike. Anyway, the bosses where defeated quickly. So don't tell me that the meters and such matters!And the fights were simple and boring. Ooh lets continue to do that... right? And comparing raids with professional sport is just LOL.Understanding analogies is hard I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Damage meters lead to more efficient character output. More efficient character output leads to more enrage timers, to maintain "challenge". More enrage timers leads to more scrutinizing on damage meter results, after wipes.You were doing so well until after this point. More scrutinizing damage meter results leads to negativity within the community. More negativity within the community leads to a poor playerbase. A poor playerbase leads to .... Here's what you'll have without meters. People the healers of screwing up, people accusing the tank of not holding aggro... people getting booted with not actual reason other than what they think they might have done. With a dps meter you can easily tell which dps was using a taunting ability, just how much threat the tank had, and how mean heals per second the healer was using. A tool doesn't make someone a negative player. Edited January 17, 2012 by Morcova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 And if the "damage meters" provided your personal output only, you would still be able to try to push for that extra 10-20 DPS in YOUR performance. Why should improving YOUR PERSONAL performance require you, or anyone else, to see numbers for anyone else in the group? I like to see how the rest of the team is doing and measure myself against them. I like to know that the caster who never raided before I doing excellent dps. What's wrong with data? Why is knowledge to be feared? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Other mechanics where mentioned where boss mods came into play in another game. That is how it came in, and it wasn't directed at you either. As for guilds who could do world first kill without addons just take a peak at Ensida and before. Neither did my guild use anything during Vanilla, there wasn't really much available either, we cleared out content anyway so who cares. Wow it's harder to be as wrong as you are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inraika Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ITT People who care way to much about a video game complain about something completely unimportant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ITT People who care way to much about a video game complain about something completely unimportant. I don't think worrying about how my time and money is spent is a unimportant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inraika Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I don't think worrying about how my time and money is spent is a unimportant. ITT Someone worrying about something unimportant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) ITT Someone worrying about something unimportant. Maybe if you're twelve and mommy and daddy pays for you're account you might not be concerned with how you spend your money and time. Edited January 17, 2012 by Morcova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inraika Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Maybe if you're twelve and mommy and daddy pays for you're account you might not be concerned with how you spend your money and time. Oh, sorry to offend you. If this combat log for your "Pr0 RaiDz Bro" dictates whether or not you pay you $15 a month for this game. You should probably have someone else handle your big boy money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Oh, sorry to offend you. If this combat log for your "Pr0 RaiDz Bro" dictates whether or not you pay you $15 a month for this game. You should probably have someone else handle your big boy money. Was never going to raid in this game. It's the pathetic lack of features the 2006 graphics the lies told by Bioware that's going to keep me from renewing my account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inraika Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Was never going to raid in this game. It's the pathetic lack of features the 2006 graphics the lies told by Bioware that's going to keep me from renewing my account. Then stop complaining and get off the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Then stop complaining and get off the forums. Hahaha, why would I do that? These forums provide almost endless entertainment. The amount of butthurt from anybody who dares to criticize this game is hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZGOD Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I cannot believe there is over 50 pages of discussion on this topic. I have to agree with the above quoted comment. I am starting to think that the 'fors' and 'againsts' in this debate are both missing a fundamental point here. The 'For Combat Loggers' simply wish to accurately track the performance of their group, and rightly so. Whatever side reasons they have for wanting them is fine too but that is the MAIN POINT on their side. The 'againsts' are taking umbrage to some folks' elitist sounding and exclusionary tone, automatically calling them 'bads' and 'having something to hide'. The "Against Combat Loggers' have an idea in their minds that making such information available promotes elitism in an environment that they simply wish to keep casual. Perhaps they had bad experiences in wow with jerkish kids spamming recount all over the place. Personally, for my part, I tend to get my hackles raised when I read some of the arrogance in these posts. And it's arrogance on both sides. Much of this could be avoided if people would just step down, un-puff that chest, and put away those peacock feathers and take a moment to examine how you come off to others. Regardless, I think it would behoove many of those against this feature to google what a combat log actually is. COMBAT LOGS ARE NOT THE SAME AS RECOUNT. I really do think some of the posters on this thread don't know the difference....or even, do not even know what a combat log is. Exactly. People are getting confused between a combat log and a damage/performance meter. You can have a combat log that requires your RL to activate recording the log, uploading it through some parsing software and then interpreting the results. That requires a bit of effort to do, and cannot be displayed/linked in game at the time (unless it's a real time parser like World of Logs). This way you can have your RL and/or guildies still have access to their performance, and it keeps happy those people who are concerned it will breed elitism due to usage by the uninformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeln Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 What planet do people live on where people aren't turds until a tool is added? Does that mean we should run as fast as we can toward giving them tools to enable them to be even bigger jerks than before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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