Why oh why can I hurt other players if I am not PvP flagged?

[xXHexagonXx]

Name an MMO where catching an enemy player in an AoE, even if you were targeting an enemy with it first, does not throw you into PvP mode. Go ahead.

 

That's just how it works. If they're flagged, anyone and anything can and will do damage to them. If you do damage to someone, you become flagged.

 

Rift for one, I am sure there are others... Rift had a PVP lock... if you locked your status as OFF, ie no PVP flagging then if your AOE would not damage enemy flagged players. Also as a healer you could not heal a flagged player without first intentionally flagging.

 

Pretty sure WOW worked the same was as well.

 

I agree with the OP, they need to turn off the auto-flag on PVE servers.

[_Darkstar]

Checked Twitter again and @Rockjaw hasn't touched Twitter in a few days and @SWTOR is replying only to stupid questions that are already answered in multiple stickies and FAQ's on the website and should never have been asked on Twitter in the first place ...

 

I suggest everyone spamming the @SWTOR account with this question and the link to this thread, hopefully they might get the hint...

[Roane]

I just tweeted at them after noticing yet another thread on this. It seems to be getting more prevalent. I hadn't even seen your request yet.

[_Darkstar]

I just tweeted at them after noticing yet another thread on this. It seems to be getting more prevalent. I hadn't even seen your request yet.

I think unless the devs do something about this then us publicising it is only going to make it worse. Its catch 22 for us.

[VelVenturi]

I resubbed for this month but only to give BioWare a chance to reply to this thread, if they maintain a whole month of silence then I think that speaks for itself.

 

This is my plan as well. I guess I'll have to check out this Twitter thing, which I've managed to avoid until now. But it's looking like silence is all we're going to get.

[Roane]

I think unless the devs do something about this then us publicising it is only going to make it worse. Its catch 22 for us.

 

 

We might speed that up but it's going to happen anyway -- more people will notice and take advantage. And then that's more people we can report for griefing, bringing more attention to it. Win?

[discosoc]

That seems to be the correct response; report them for exploiting a bug, griefing and harassment.

 

Since it's not actually a bug (it's a design oversight, if not an actual design choice), I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

[Grammarye]

Remove world PvP on PvE servers. Problem solved. I speak as a long-time player of PvP. Griefing isn't PvP. PvP is about the best traditions of using one's skill & intelligence to defeat an equal or superior foe, not ganking helpless players who aren't interested and probably half your level.

 

Open PvP belongs on PvP servers. If you genuinely believe in PvP, that's where you play it anyway. Plenty of safezones about on the various planets.

 

I didn't need to mess with flagging in EVE low-sec (although they had some flagging concepts certainly, they didn't change the ability to shoot someone, only who shoots back). I had to rely on being any good at combat, scouting, and knowing when to run like hell.

 

Granted, this is an extreme response, and I doubt would ever actually happen (and I'd entirely endorse free server transfers if it really did) but I just don't see the point of flagging on a PvE server when there's a perfectly good PvP server available. If anything it helps boost PvP populations.

 

Alternatively, let PvE players who want to enjoy the game do so and at least fix the AoE flagging, same as other games before have done so. There's a PvP ruleset, go use it.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Grammarye

[Clark_CDA]

This happened to me, too, the other night for the first time in game. I accidentally damaged a player by an AOE--and the player was helping me defeat a mob. Then he started attacking me. I had no idea at first what was going on. Then I realized I had gotten flagged for PVP.

 

The solution is simple, add a third option to the swich:

 

Now its just PVP on or off. It should be:

 

1. Flag for PVP (exists now)

2. PVP off unless I take action (exists now)

3. PVP shall never occur (new proposed)

[Cygnific]

Since it's not actually a bug (it's a design oversight, if not an actual design choice), I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

 

You dont know if it's a bug or not. It could very well be one. Anyway, nobody should be flagged for pvp unless you heal a flagged person. The lack of response from the devs is sad to say the least. I'm all for pvp, but it should be fair.

[Sabarok]

Since it's not actually a bug (it's a design oversight, if not an actual design choice), I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

 

Design oversights are a very big source of bugs. It's a fancy way of saying "I didn't think about that", and it's probably the largest source of bugs in software.

 

The design choice was allowing unflagged players to initiate an attack on flagged players. The design oversight is that AoEs don't require a specific target. The bug is that players can walk into an AoE and force a flag on a player that doesn't want it.

[VarnieTsk]

Remove world PvP on PvE servers. Problem solved. I speak as a long-time player of PvP. Griefing isn't PvP. PvP is about the best traditions of using one's skill & intelligence to defeat an equal or superior foe, not ganking helpless players who aren't interested and probably half your level.

 

Open PvP belongs on PvP servers. If you genuinely believe in PvP, that's where you play it anyway. Plenty of safezones about on the various planets.

 

I didn't need to mess with flagging in EVE low-sec (although they had some flagging concepts certainly, they didn't change the ability to shoot someone, only who shoots back). I had to rely on being any good at combat, scouting, and knowing when to run like hell.

 

Granted, this is an extreme response, and I doubt would ever actually happen (and I'd entirely endorse free server transfers if it really did) but I just don't see the point of flagging on a PvE server when there's a perfectly good PvP server available. If anything it helps boost PvP populations.

 

Alternatively, let PvE players who want to enjoy the game do so and at least fix the AoE flagging, same as other games before have done so. There's a PvP ruleset, go use it.

 

Well said. Warzones and such on pvp servers are fine for those who like them I guess. But I agree that world pvp belongs on pvp servers. Better for us, better for them. Win/win. (well maybe not win for the griefers and such lol)

 

However, I'll settle for just not having to work to keep myself unflagged on a pve server.

Edited January 24, 2012 by VarnieTsk

[BigBadEdward]

I refuse to just ACCEPT that though. It's either a bug that will be fixed, or it's intended. They need to let us know.

 

 

There are things you can change and there are things you just have to accept and deal with, this is one of them.

 

It's intentional. That what I meant by "that's the way it works". What would be the point of being flagged if not to indulge in PvP? You initiate PvP by attacking someone who is flagged. It's no different than firing off an AOE in a bunch of yellow mobs. This MMO is pretty much a carbon copy of just about all of the usual MMO mechanics, that is one of them.

 

You have to be careful of anyone close to you when you fire off an AOE. Intent is immaterial. I really don't see that changing in any way.

[Sabarok]

There are things you can change and there are things you just have to accept and deal with, this is one of them.

 

It's intentional. That what I meant by "that's the way it works". What would be the point of being flagged if not to indulge in PvP? You initiate PvP by attacking someone who is flagged. It's no different than firing off an AOE in a bunch of yellow mobs. This MMO is pretty much a carbon copy of just about all of the usual MMO mechanics, that is one of them.

 

You have to be careful of anyone close to you when you fire off an AOE. Intent is immaterial. I really don't see that changing in any way.

 

The full ramifications of it would have to be unintentional, because with the system the way it is now, it renders the entire flag system meaningless and turns PvE servers into open world PvP. If they wanted ganking, they wouldn't have bothered with PvE servers.

[ferroz]

Since it's not actually a bug (it's a design oversight, if not an actual design choice)

A design oversight is a bug.

 

I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

I'll keep petitioning until I get a response I'm happy with. I encourage other people to do the same.

[VarnieTsk]

I refuse to just ACCEPT that though. It's either a bug that will be fixed, or it's intended. They need to let us know.

 

 

There are things you can change and there are things you just have to accept and deal with, this is one of them.

 

It's intentional. That what I meant by "that's the way it works". What would be the point of being flagged if not to indulge in PvP? You initiate PvP by attacking someone who is flagged. It's no different than firing off an AOE in a bunch of yellow mobs. This MMO is pretty much a carbon copy of just about all of the usual MMO mechanics, that is one of them.

 

You have to be careful of anyone close to you when you fire off an AOE. Intent is immaterial. I really don't see that changing in any way.

 

How do you know it's intentional? Where does it say that? I keep seeing posts, people saying it's working as intended. Ok, show me. Where does it say that?

[ferroz]

It's intentional.

[citation needed]

[bpphantom]

Name an MMO where catching an enemy player in an AoE, even if you were targeting an enemy with it first, does not throw you into PvP mode. Go ahead.

 

That's just how it works. If they're flagged, anyone and anything can and will do damage to them. If you do damage to someone, you become flagged.

 

Rift.

[_Darkstar]

There are things you can change and there are things you just have to accept and deal with, this is one of them.

 

It's intentional. That what I meant by "that's the way it works". What would be the point of being flagged if not to indulge in PvP? You initiate PvP by attacking someone who is flagged. It's no different than firing off an AOE in a bunch of yellow mobs. This MMO is pretty much a carbon copy of just about all of the usual MMO mechanics, that is one of them.

 

You have to be careful of anyone close to you when you fire off an AOE. Intent is immaterial. I really don't see that changing in any way.

Why do people like you insist on making posts without reading the thread?

 

What you have said has been proven wrong multiple times...

[Kirska]

Have not seen this happen personally but I agree this would be very annoying. I'm like you, I choose to not PvP out in the world intentionally and it's not fair for other players to be able to exploit in order to force you to flag.

[Qlogix]

70 pages and not one dev comment? Blah. Come on BW...can we please get a response on this? Edited January 24, 2012 by Qlogix

[ChicksDigHarleys]

This issue has been brought up many times as far back as my first beta invite (August). I have NEVER seen a dev comment yay or nay if this is intended or not.

 

Since every game forum I've ever been on (including this one) frowns upon posting exploits ( and specifically how to do them), and this thread is like 700 posts strong, it is fairly safe to conclude that this is NOT an exploit. Cheesy? Yes. Bug? Possibly. A dev response would be nice.

 

Remove world PvP on PvE servers.

 

No thanks. How about they just fix it so you can't accidentally flag?

Edited January 24, 2012 by ChicksDigHarleys

[MGriffith]

I know, but it is open to grief the other way.

You have a buddy in your group who decides to attack the yellow player.

 

So all of you who did not choose to do so can still stay blue and not turn green?

Does he get to keep all the buffs that were applied to him for being near you or in the party?

 

That would be a programming nightmare to compensate for every possible variable that would need to turn off or on (like all of his buffs and he is automatically kicked from group) the moment he attacked.

 

It would be just easier and common sense to say everyone in that group is now flagged for PVP so the victim cannot be griefed in such a fashion.

 

It's a game, and you suffer less being killed in it then you do in real life.

 

So do you refuse to go to the store because that chance you will die in a car accident or get mugged and shot is there?

 

No, you go off to enjoy your life without being paralyzed by those fears...I hope.

 

This is a game, and it's easy to avoid.

I know, I do it all the time in every MMO I play.

 

Not rocket Surgery or Brain Science.

 

 

So, in essence you are saying that even though I chose to play on a PvE player I just have to accept that it can be turned into a PvP one at any moment whether I agree to that or not, and that I should learn to like it?

 

And no, it is rather simple to ensure that the flag can not be abused. As has been explained in this discussion thread many times already... If two players have a different state on their PvP flag then NOTHING they do can affect each other. They can not damage, buff nor heal each other.

It's really not all that difficult. After all most games with mixed PvE and PvP have encountered the same issue and managed to solve the problem...

[VarnieTsk]

In every thread that I see people complain about something, there is always someone who jumps in and says, "This is not a game breaking problem, let them fix everything else first".

 

Well, THIS is a game breaking problem. It will turn off any new player to MMOs that buys this game and gets ganked. It will turn off PVE people who want to roll alts. If you aren't safe to quest on a PVE server, that information will get a lot of notice and a lot of press.

 

"SWTOR, low level new players being slaughtered on PVE servers and nothing can be done!", doesn't look good on paper.

 

 

Exactly right. In fact I can honestly say that if I was currently considering trying this game, the minute I saw that this was possible and was happening, I'd immediately cross it off my list and not look any further into what the game may or may not have to offer. I've been game hunting before and done just that.

 

And by the same token....if it goes on in a game I'm currently in, I leave. Simple as that. So come on Bioware, give us a sign. Is this working as intended? Should I stay or should I go?

 

/stillwaitingforaresponsebw

[MGriffith]

How do you know it's intentional? Where does it say that? I keep seeing posts, people saying it's working as intended. Ok, show me. Where does it say that?

 

What people who say this really mean is that they like the way the system currently works and see no reason for it to be changed.

 

Which is not quite the same as working as intended.

 

I have no idea how many people agree with me, but to me this IS a deal breaking issue. The game promised that on a PvE server the only way I could get into PvP is by deliberately doing so, which heavily implied joining a warzone or visiting Ilum. While accidentally targetting a player with a PvP flag is stretching the definition of consenual to its breaking point already, several other exploits take it far beyond and turn the PvE server into a thinly disguised PvP one.

 

I am taking the silence of the developers on this subject as meaning they fully intent everybody getting involved in PvP regardless of the server status. Which in turn means that this is not the type of game for me. Which is fine. I enjoyed the game while it lasted and kept away from the parts where I had to enter the Pvp mindset (I am inclined to call it paranoia) at all times. I'll be sad not to be able to complete the story arcs but I'll live.