Assault vs. Tactics (w/Rotations)

[Grimgold]

I often see the question about the best DPS spec for Vanguard, and while lots of people have chimed in this way or that, I haven't seem much in the way of a theory crafted approach to the question. Figuring out best damage spec without a damage meter, or even solid understanding of the damage formulas poses some problems, we do however understand the rotations, and knowledge of the abilities in broad strokes. So starting from what we know I decided to compare rotations, which are below.

 

I decided on a 30 second window both to allow more High Impact Bolt procs for Assault, and get an even number of Cells from High Energy Cell. This is more focused on PvE and raiding so the number one priority is sustainability of damage over the duration, which means both rotations make use of hammer shot to stay in the highest regen level.

 

Where it makes sense I deviate from the stated priority, at the beginning of the rotation on Tactics to not waste a cell of regen, and later in Assault to avoid going below 8 cells.

[Grimgold]

Tactics

Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsrbRrfkzsZb.1

 

Single Target Priority

Blitz (When available)

Fire Blast

Gut (when DOT is down)

High Impact Bolt

Stock Strike

Sticky Grenade

(At 9 or above cells and 5 stacks of the buff) Pulse Cannon

(At 8 or above cells) Ion Pulse

(At less than 8 cells) Hammer Shot

 

The goal is to never dip into lower than the second best recharge rate, so when in the second recharge rate hammer shot replaces Ion Pulse since it's free. If your doing your rotation correctly you should rarely use hammer shot.

 

 

Updated Rotation with Full auto

0.0 sticky Grenade (10 cells)

1.6 Regen +1

2.0 Fire Blast (9 cells)

3.2 Regen +1

4.0 Gut (8 cells)

5.0 Regen +1

6.0 Stock Strike (9 cells)

6.0 High energy cell +1

6.6 Regen +1

8.0 High Impact shot (9 cells)

8.2 Regen +1

10.0 Regen +1

10.0 Full Auto (9 cells)

11.6 Regen +1

12.0 High energy cell +1

13.0 Ion Pulse (9 cells)

13.2 Regen +1

15.0 Sticky Grenade (8 Cells)

15.0 Regen +1

16.6 Regen +1

17.0 Fire Blast (9 cells)

18.0 High energy Cell +1

18.2 Regen +1

19.0 Gut (9 cells)

20.0 Regen +1

21.0 Stock Strike (10 cells)

21.6 Regen +1

23.0 High Impact Bolt (9 cells)

23.2 Regen +1

24.0 High energy cell +1

25.0 Regen +1

25.0 Ion Pulse (10 cells)

26.6 Regen +1

27.0 Ion Pulse (9 cells)

29.0 Hammer shot (9 cells)

30.0 High energy Cell + 1

30.0 Regen +1

30.0 Rotation ends with 11 cells

Edited January 9, 2012 by Grimgold

[Grimgold]

Assault

Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZ0MZfhMbdGhrs.1

 

Priority

Blitz (When available)

Incendiary Round (when DOT is Down)

Assault Plastique

Ion Blast (When no DOT is active)

High Impact Bolt

Stock Strike

(At 8 or above cells) Ion Pulse

(At less than 8 cells) Hammer Shot

 

Rotation mechanics: Procing a free HIB is the energy generator for this rotation, which requires that 1.) the target be on Fire and 2.) That ion pulse or stock strike be used. This is a very RNG dependent spec, I regularly went 20 seconds between HIB procs, which puts this spec 3 or 4 ammo behind tactics. For the purpose of this comparison though I'll smooth out the randomness and say HIB gets a proc every other stock strike, and every third ion blast, for the sake of not loading up a part of the rotation I picked the first stock strike and the middle Ion Blast. As with Tactics you'll want to stay in the top tier of ammo regeneration

 

Single target

0.0 Incendiary Round (9 Cells)

1.6 Regen +1

2.0 assualt Plastique (8 Cells)

3.3 Regen +1

4.0 Hammer Shot (9 Cells)

5.0 Regen +1

6.0 High Impact Bolt (8 Cells)

6.6 Regen +1

8.0 Hammer Shot (9 Cells)

8.2 Regen +1

10.0 Regen +1

10.0 Stock Strike (9 Cells)(Proc)

11.6 Regen +1

12.0 High Impact shot (11 Cells)

13.3 Regen + 1

14.0 Ion Pulse (10 Cells)

15.0 Regen + 1

16.0 Incendiary Round (8 Cells)

16.6 Regen +1

18.0 Hammer shot (9 Cells)

18.3 Regen + 1

20.0 Regen + 1

20.0 Assault Plastique (9 Cells)

21.6 Regen + 1

22.0 Stock Strike (8 Cells)

23.3 Regen + 1

24.0 Hammer Shot (9 Cells)

25.0 Regen + 1

26.0 Ion Pulse (8 Cells)(Proc)

26.6 Regen + 1

28.0 High Impact Bolt (10 Cells)

28.3 Regen + 1

30.0 Regen + 1

30.0 Ion Blast (10 Cells)

Edited January 9, 2012 by Grimgold

[Grimgold]

For Solo and flashpoints/operations purposes I prefer tactics hands down, as shown above it has a much smoother rotation, with High Energy Cell outperforming High Friction Bolts by an average of three energy cells per thirty seconds (or 150% for the math fans in the audience). The Fire Pulse stock strike combo is more reliable than Ionic accelerator (which will give free HIB every so often), and has an initial cost of 1 cell and can be planned for.

 

Assault is designed to be the vanguard PvP DPS tree, it's not reliant on being in melee range, it can perma snare opponents for kiting, It has two dots to add pressure, shorter cool down durations, better damage against wounded opponents, and works best when sustained fighting is not the goal. Sadly as cool as it is, shield spec eclipses it for PvP, to make a comparison to that game it's arms spec during prots time as the number 1 spec for Arenas.

 

So what are your thoughts?

[DaBadVoodoo]

You sir, have won my respect.

[Grimgold]

Thanks

[bliapis]

nice job man

[Pistols]

Pew pew

[texn]

Really nice work m8!

[Mminas]

First of all good job on breaking down things.

 

A few thoughts on your conclusions:

 

What you basically compare here is the resource management mechanics for the two different specs in a pve situation. The thing is that they really make no point by themselves. It is obvious by your work and for everyone that has been playing vanguard as dps on 50lvl that tactics is the Quality of Life choice when it comes down to resource management. It's much harder to go down to "ammo hell" as tactics and it's easier to get out of it if you find yourself in that situation but...

Resource management and rotation ease mean very little in end game pve. You need sustained damage measurements to make comparisons and that's the simple truth. That being said I think that tactics extra burst can and will be useful. On the other hand assault allows you to continue doing damage when you have to move away from your target and the dots keep ticking too which means in fights that get messy assault might well come out on top. I'm playing as assault at the moment, I've switch to tactics before and I will switch again just for variety. I will switch to tactics for good when and if it is proved that it gives an edge over assault in end game pve.

 

When it comes to pvp i feel that comparing assault to shield is really just biased. They are two different specs that fill two different roles in pvp and saying that one is better or worse than the other is out of place. It's like saying combat medic commando beats assault commando or gunnery commando hands down in pvp. You are just comparing oranges to apples. On top of that Warzones are not arenas so there is room for many more combinations.

 

I say bring the combat logs out bioware and let's get some real theorycrafting started.

[Ishkur]

Have fun programming your macro and fail badly. *** rotations use your brain.

[Grimgold]

Thanks Mminas, I see where your coming from but I'm not sure I agree. I think tactics is more than a quality of life improvement, Assault used four hammer shots as opposed to one by tactics, and had to wait a GCD on two occasions to use one of it's high priority shots due to energy cells. Both of those result in a dps loss, which would have to be made up by an extra dot and the small delta in tree specific damage talents.

 

The data isn't great right now, but what we have from tor head and darth hater just don't support that conclusion.

[TheCosmicMuffet]

When it comes to pvp i feel that comparing assault to shield is really just biased. They are two different specs that fill two different roles in pvp and saying that one is better or worse than the other is out of place. It's like saying combat medic commando beats assault commando or gunnery commando hands down in pvp. You are just comparing oranges to apples. On top of that Warzones are not arenas so there is room for many more combinations.

 

This is an interesting statement to me. I've never found that there is any but one right answer for pvp; more everything. You can't be a glass canon because you'll be destroyed too quickly. You can't be toothless because you won't be able to grind others down. So every class that pvps seriously tries to maximize utility and control while maintaining their best survivability and burst--then the winner is down to who plays better or has a better plan (ideally).

 

The shield spec has a lot of damage in it, as well as utility. You really can't ignore it. I don't think assault has a fundamentally different purpose than a shield. It's not like a melee stealther vs a ranged class or someething where the difference is in how you want to start the engagement, and it's not the difference between a healer and a tank or something--vangards in pvp pretty much *alwayS* want to tank advantage of some kiting and stay on the move, and pretty much *always* rely on their superior survivability to harder hitting/easier killed classes. It doesn't matter if you're shield or assault if your approach to a melee sith is to kite them around, dot them up, and occasionally cc them and run in for a a stockstrike or interrupt.

 

I think his pvp conclusion is a valid comparison because while the specs are different--the nature of pvp is not. I mean, maybe you could argue that assault is worse for huttball or something, but I don't really see that as the case. All pvp has a need for cc, positioning, survivability, and damage. That's why the people who like to pvp don't like pve as much--you always need to be aware of all those things in every fight. There's no straight forward 'tank and spank' pvp or 'gimmick fights'. Arguably, if there are, then it's a balance problem.

 

I think your point about needing the combat logs to really decide for pve dps is valid, though.

[Bozzzzzman]

Currentyl im shield spec for leveling and plan on remaing shield spec for PVP. I might transition to Tact if i plan on raiding. Other then that I would rather play middle tier when it comes to Damage out put in pvp battles and focus more on my Survivability. Give me the Hutt Ball, Let me take 3 dudes on me trying to beat me down, while i crono blast/improved harpoon stun/ Grenade stun's etc while my team mates focus on other things. Thats just me though. The only question i have is to fully spec into shield completely due to i feel you dont need the 31 talent point for PVP so i came up with this spec any thoughts? Survivability + CC/ decent dps

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMGrzRroTZrsMZb.1

[Lilrys]

I must be missing something, but why are you using 2 secound windows, when the gcd is 1,5sec?

[DimeThePG]

Have anyone of you looked becouse of the DPS Set´s

 

The 4er Bonus of the Commando Set is Reduce cost of HIB(High Impact Bolt) by 1.

 

Our Tech Set only Bringt 8% more DMG to HIB and -15 sec CD for Battle Focus.

 

Will This not Give The Assoult Spec A Bonus?

More HIB less Muni Costs.

With the Commando Set its a free Skill.

 

Would it not be better for Taktiks Too?

Every 2 HIB i can make 1 more Ion Pulse.

 

What do you Think what will be better for us?

-1 Muni Cost for HIB oder 8% more DMG with HIB and -15 sec CD for Battle Focus.

 

 

I Hope i am right with the set Bonis becouse I have only the Tank Set so i have my informations about the DD Sets from this site.

 

http://knotor.com/item_sets

 

PS Sry for my BAD English

[Lukakuu]

What do you Think what will be better for us?

-1 Muni Cost for HIB oder 8% more DMG with HIB and -15 sec CD for Battle Focus.

 

I just got the Columi 4 set bonus last night for my Assault Spec Van and I went with the Tech armor over the Eliminator. You might be a tactics player but for me who PvPs a ton and does a fair amount of hard-modes and does it as Assault Spec I can easily hands down say Tech is better for me. HiB crits for 3.5-5.5k now depending how many cds I use. those numbers are equally matched by Assault Plastique also which is fantastic burst for pvp.

 

Considering that you are probably getting stat upgrades along with the 4 set bonus of the Tech armor it wouldn't be crazy to say your HiB hits and crits could be significantly and noticeably larger, like how I experienced.

[Kizah]

Nice job, it's good to see more people supporting Tactics. I've seen mostly flame and awkward hybrids builds for Tactics.. good to see a pure spec and the damage is great.

[rudyboysilva]

would it be feasible for a vanguard to dps spec, but wear tank gear for added survivability?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Wouldn't it be better to mix n match both dps trees?.....I don't see why everyone is so "you gotta go full this or this" I would think mix and matching would be more beneficial to spread out the dps and give more variety.

[Cheeseblaster]

For Solo and flashpoints/operations purposes I prefer tactics hands down, as shown above it has a much smoother rotation, with High Energy Cell outperforming High Friction Bolts by an average of three energy cells per thirty seconds (or 150% for the math fans in the audience). The Fire Pulse stock strike combo is more reliable than Ionic accelerator (which will give free HIB every so often), and has an initial cost of 1 cell and can be planned for.

 

Assault is designed to be the vanguard PvP DPS tree, it's not reliant on being in melee range, it can perma snare opponents for kiting, It has two dots to add pressure, shorter cool down durations, better damage against wounded opponents, and works best when sustained fighting is not the goal. Sadly as cool as it is, shield spec eclipses it for PvP, to make a comparison to that game it's arms spec during prots time as the number 1 spec for Arenas.

 

So what are your thoughts?

 

Nice! Question about PvP. I never seem to play in a group in PvP. I'm usually on much later than my guild mates, and it doesn't seem other people are interested in grouping up in the Warzones i'm in.

 

Taking that into consideration. If I'm going to be on my own a lot in PvP is Assault better than Shield Spec? I've been leveling Shield Spec, but I find it's abilities wasted when I can't find people to group up with.

 

Also looks like from what I've been readin i need to have a differnent character for PvP and Solo PvE since as you said Tactics is better for PvE and Assault or Shield for PvP.

 

I'm completely new to this so any explanations are welcome!

[Cronhour]

would it be feasible for a vanguard to dps spec, but wear tank gear for added survivability?

 

i just tanked the last 2 bosses in Taral V hardmode with the tactics spec in my tank gear, and dpsed the first 2. we wiped on the last boss but then we also had a healer who'd respecced from dmg to healing (commando) in his dps gear, I took the odd large crit but other than that it wasn't too bad, missed storm though :/

[Kizah]

I personally feel like Tactics is great for PvE DPS, I haven't tried it too much in PvP as opposed to Assault, though. SO far (at level 37) my Pulse Cannon at 5 stacks crits for 1k each tick and I've already seen 1100 Stockstrike crits, close to 1k Ion crits, and the tick from Gut is pretty nice imo. Sticky Grenade I've also see hit for over 1k and as an AoE which we still use single-target, that's not too shabby.

[Grimgold]

I must be missing something, but why are you using 2 secound windows, when the gcd is 1,5sec?

 

You sir are absolutely correct, and I'm mortified that I made that mistake. I had read somewhere about the GCD being 2 seconds and accepted it uncritically, if I had googled it I would have known better. I will update the information in the first couple of post, and thanks for pointing that out.

 

would it be feasible for a vanguard to dps spec, but wear tank gear for added survivability?

 

It's feasible, but not recommended. If your DPS you shouldn't have agro, so toughness shouldn't be an issue. If your a tank, the easier you can make your healers life the better, and there are quite a few helpful talents in Shield spec for tanking.

 

Wouldn't it be better to mix n match both dps trees?.....I don't see why everyone is so "you gotta go full this or this" I would think mix and matching would be more beneficial to spread out the dps and give more variety.

 

That depends on whether the upper talents are worthwhile, and I think between tactics and assault they are. Havoc training and assault training are good investments at end game levels of crits, and assault plastique/Fire Pulse are both very strong abilities, especially Fire Pulse (1 energy, hits a little lower than HIB). Plus some of the combo's won't work without the upper talents.

 

Nice! Question about PvP. I never seem to play in a group in PvP. I'm usually on much later than my guild mates, and it doesn't seem other people are interested in grouping up in the Warzones i'm in.

 

Taking that into consideration. If I'm going to be on my own a lot in PvP is Assault better than Shield Spec? I've been leveling Shield Spec, but I find it's abilities wasted when I can't find people to group up with.

 

That depends, if you can regularly find unguarded healers in the BGs shield spec is probably still worth it. Healing is the number one force multiplier in battle grounds, and anything you can do to make those selfless souls lives a little easier will help your team. However I haven't seen too many of those since the healers on my server tend to bring their own tanks, so if your not guarding someone assault is probably better.

[Domiinick]

Gotta say I still find tactics easier for me, even in the 40's. I liked Assault plastic, as well as all the burny stuff, but it just seemed to go to hell with ammo really quick.

 

Thing is, I tried High Energy cell too, and I didn't feel like it warranted the extra 4 points that you can get in the 15% more speed, which is.. meh, and the 1 cell every 6 seconds, which is decent.

 

I usually run with Ion cell and a power generator in pvp, and use plasma for pve, as I find the extra dot does seem to help steady out the dps a bit when just using hammer shots trying to get to them. Just my 2 cents.