PVP Video - OPeratives are OP

[longbawl]

Every class has their ups and downs. TAKE THIS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT: I believe Shadow/Assassins have more escapes - better CCs - and a better, and sooner, bubble than Operatives. But I MAY BE WRONG ON THIS POINT.

 

And might I add that no MMO has been developed around 1 against 1 fighting. Its -always- focused more for group fighting.

 

Assassins/Shadows - 1 escape ( 2 abilities - vanish and a cloak of shadows), that has to be used OFTEN to survive because in the length of time it takes to get a kill help has usually arrived for the victim.

 

our heal - none

 

bubble - none

 

we have taunt - which i use often to help my survivability but it is clearly taken into account in the dmg design of the character.

 

you're not wrong again that mmos aren't 1v1 balanced...however, what you're describing, again, is not 1v1 balance. 1v1 balance complaints are when "such&such" ability directly counters my characters "such&such" ability. Example: Mass dispel and pally bubble. taking out MD would be considered balancing for 1v1. What this situation more closely resembles was how old lock fear used to work in....NO diminishing returns and didnt break on dmg. Basically overpowered ability that was usable on all classes by the lock for the same results: easy gibs.

[Doxxs]

The game isn't designed around one against ones. No MMO is designed for one against ones. You put an Operative in a competitive arena and see how it does when he gets death gripped on, targets shielded, targets healed and when people travel with their groups.

 

If I'm on my Sniper and an Operative catches me alone - I know I'm probably boned unless I play my cards right and get lucky. This is a time where TEAMMATES become handy to watch my back and make sure my *** is up and alive in the bout.

 

Seriously - if you think a class should be handled and tuned for one on one combat, then you shouldn't be playing MMO PVP. Some classes are strong in One on One - yes, but MMO PVP isn't designed around 1v1s.

 

All I'm saying is that he's catching people: 1) Alone. 2) Unbuffed/Protected (i.e shields, HoTs, whatever) and 3) With low physical mitigation and he won. He did his job, move on.

 

If they normalize the burst and spread it out, then it stops being burst - doesn't it?

 

But Op/scoundrel are tuned for 1v1 combat. So no classes except those should be tuned for that? You contradict yourself. Also apply a double standard.

 

You are truly of the position that OP/scoundrel do and should have guaranteed kills in a 1v1 situation...you don't have a shred of fair play in your body. But then again what hardcore MMORPG PVPer does huh?

 

I am of the position that no class deserves that privilege...and if a class does have it it is bad design.

[Plastic]

But Op/scoundrel are tuned for 1v1 combat. So no classes except those should be tuned for that? You contradict yourself. Also apply a double standard.

 

You are truly of the position that OP/scoundrel do and should have guaranteed kills in a 1v1 situation...you don't have a shred of fair play in your body. But then again what hardcore MMORPG PVPer does huh?

 

I am of the position that no class deserves that privilege...and if a class does have it it is bad design.

 

No MMO is designed for one v one combat.

 

Op/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes - take out/put pressure on healers, cloth/light. Just so happens that this idea of TARGETING A SINGLE PERSON in group play happens to be a good in 1v1 combat - which NO mmo is designed around for.

 

Let's piece this together: Ops/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes in group combat - put pressure/take out important targets. No MMO was designed for 1v1s.

 

Kinda ... sits together, yeah?

Edited January 8, 2012 by Plastic

[ChrisJSY]

The game isn't designed around one against ones. No MMO is designed for one against ones. You put an Operative in a competitive arena and see how it does when he gets death gripped on, targets shielded, targets healed and when people travel with their groups.

 

If I'm on my Sniper and an Operative catches me alone - I know I'm probably boned unless I play my cards right and get lucky. This is a time where TEAMMATES become handy to watch my back and make sure my *** is up and alive in the bout.

 

Seriously - if you think a class should be handled and tuned for one on one combat, then you shouldn't be playing MMO PVP. Some classes are strong in One on One - yes, but MMO PVP isn't designed around 1v1s.

 

All I'm saying is that he's catching people: 1) Alone. 2) Unbuffed/Protected (i.e shields, HoTs, whatever) and 3) With low physical mitigation and he won. He did his job, move on.

 

If they normalize the burst and spread it out, then it stops being burst - doesn't it?

 

Problem is you think it not being balance for 1 vs 1 is a good thing, how many MMO's have had a very complaint heavy forum in PvP because some are just better than others?

What's that I hear? All of them? Yup, maybe that's the reason to begin with.

 

I honestly believe people are being spiteful and don't realise the benefits of balanced 1v1 is. BALANCED SCALING .

 

If you suddenly have a team of classes that aren't good at much 1vs1 compared to a team that are, who has the advantage?

 

Why people think rock-paper-scissors ever is a good idea is beyond me, it never works, for 10 years + it hasn't worked in MMO's, I can't understand why you don't realise this.

 

It breeds stacking and people playing specific FOTM classes rather than what they actually wanted to, because in the end it's more fun and easier/skill less to press 3-4 buttons and down someone, it's easier to peel them off because they're under so much pressure, or be a general nuisance.

 

Believe it or not, I play a class and I want it nerfed, I'm not greedy and selfish enough like some to think it doesn't need toning down, it's not even a challenge half the time.

 

But keep thinking 1v1 balance isn't the way forward, time has proven otherwise, at least 10 entire years of MMO developing, testing and playing.

 

There's a reason most professional sports are, for the most part 100% indentical except the sportsman/women themselves, exclusives exist such as some motorsports, but you're given the tools to make it even.

Skill should be the biggest factor in any duel, period, not class.

 

Except most of the population seems to think only Ranked 50 matches have a say or opinion and that all pug 50's and levels 49 and below aren't customers or people who have a voice. Disgusting behaviour, elitism at it's core.

[Lymain]

The funny thing is he destroys his mirror class several times with just as much ease as he destroys everything else. And compare his buff bar to the people he's fighting. At least one level 50 he killed didn't even have their own class buff, heh.

[Jayton]

No MMO is designed for one v one combat.

 

Op/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes - take out/put pressure on healers, cloth/light. Just so happens that this idea of TARGETING A SINGLE PERSON in group play happens to be a good in 1v1 combat - which NO mmo is designed around for.

 

Let's piece this together: Ops/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes in group combat - put pressure/take out important targets. No MMO was designed for 1v1s.

 

Kinda ... sits together, yeah?

 

uhh no..... how about the assassin/shadow? the name of that class should describe what its meant to do.. however its not what we do. the scoundrel does a much better job of assassinating and getting out clean than we do. with more cc and healing ability.. so if the ops/scoundrel class is supposed to be assassin-ISH class why does it assassinate soo much faster/better than the true assasin class. The scoundrel class is supposed to be a healer/CC/burst class. however the burst is the highest burst in game. so you need to rework your description dude.. and your like one against everyone including the lvl 50ops saying his own class is over powered. how are you still argueing against a guy that is saying his own character is too powerful?

[Doxxs]

No MMO is designed for one v one combat.

 

Op/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes - take out/put pressure on healers, cloth/light. Just so happens that this idea of TARGETING A SINGLE PERSON in group play happens to be a good in 1v1 combat - which NO mmo is designed around for.

 

Let's piece this together: Ops/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes in group combat - put pressure/take out important targets. No MMO was designed for 1v1s.

 

Kinda ... sits together, yeah?

 

 

Your idea of what you think the current state is and what it actually is are two different things.

 

Op/scoundrels roam solo with success and have basically guaranteed kills 1v1. This is unbalanced...regardless of your notion of what the nuances of your "ideal model" are.

Also the Op/scoundrel community reprimand people for roaming solo..and don't apply the same standard they preach to themselves.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Doxxs

[longbawl]

No MMO is designed for one v one combat.

 

Op/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes - take out/put pressure on healers, cloth/light. Just so happens that this idea of TARGETING A SINGLE PERSON in group play happens to be a good in 1v1 combat - which NO mmo is designed around for.

 

Let's piece this together: Ops/Scoundrels were designed to be assassin-esque classes in group combat - put pressure/take out important targets. No MMO was designed for 1v1s.

 

Kinda ... sits together, yeah?

 

"putting pressure" or "taking out" is not the same as gibbing in 2-3 globals. and now you're saying that 1v1 balance should be the same as single target dps optimization. just because a class has better single target dps than aoe doesn't automatically mean that single target dps should be in nuke for.

 

and ops are so good in "group" play as you say, because they annihilate targets 1 at a time., which i suppose is good for the group.

[-Fal-]

Lol end of the video two level 50's and a 42.

[Chewstay]

Part of the problem is there is absolutely no reason to ever play a Shadow/Assassin.

 

I can do everything they can do but better. Sure if the fight lasts 30 seconds they can keep pumping out damage... but... the fights dont... so it doesn't matter.

 

There are lots of fine tunings they can do without ruining the class...

 

The fact I can Hidden strike, backstab, shiv, lacerate and probably have killed my target before most people even react is silly - even against 50s.

 

edited for typo

Edited January 8, 2012 by Chewstay

[Lymain]

and ops are so good in "group" play as you say, because they annihilate targets 1 at a time., which i suppose is good for the group.

 

Eh, Ops are countered by tanks+healers in groups and won't really annihilate anyone except stragglers (unless there's a gear/skill gap, of course).

[Chewstay]

Lol end of the video two level 50's and a 42.

 

Its actually just 1 50 and a 42. He vanishs and re-adds to the fight.

[Robxiii]

I play as an operative, but heal specced. I absolutely hate that lately every single MMO with PVP has a stealther, opening with a stun, and knocking 50-100% of your life off before the CC wears off. Absolutely sick of it.

 

Nerf my operative please Not going to lie, tempted to respec & gear out just to be on the other side of the fence until it's fixed

[Doxxs]

I play as an operative, but heal specced. I absolutely hate that lately every single MMO with PVP has a stealther, opening with a stun, and knocking 50-100% of your life off before the CC wears off. Absolutely sick of it.

 

Nerf my operative please Not going to lie, tempted to respec & gear out just to be on the other side of the fence until it's fixed

 

 

They want to capture the maladroit griefer demographic that's why they keep putting this flawed design into MMORPGs.

[Plastic]

Problem is you think it not being balance for 1 vs 1 is a good thing, how many MMO's have had a very complaint heavy forum in PvP because some are just better than others?

What's that I hear? All of them? Yup, maybe that's the reason to begin with.

 

I honestly believe people are being spiteful and don't realise the benefits of balanced 1v1 is. BALANCED SCALING .

 

If you suddenly have a team of classes that aren't good at much 1vs1 compared to a team that are, who has the advantage?

 

Why people think rock-paper-scissors ever is a good idea is beyond me, it never works, for 10 years + it hasn't worked in MMO's, I can't understand why you don't realise this.

 

It breeds stacking and people playing specific FOTM classes rather than what they actually wanted to, because in the end it's more fun and easier/skill less to press 3-4 buttons and down someone, it's easier to peel them off because they're under so much pressure, or be a general nuisance.

 

Believe it or not, I play a class and I want it nerfed, I'm not greedy and selfish enough like some to think it doesn't need toning down, it's not even a challenge half the time.

 

But keep thinking 1v1 balance isn't the way forward, time has proven otherwise, at least 10 entire years of MMO developing, testing and playing.

 

There's a reason most professional sports are, for the most part 100% indentical except the sportsman/women themselves, exclusives exist such as some motorsports, but you're given the tools to make it even.

Skill should be the biggest factor in any duel, period, not class.

 

Except most of the population seems to think only Ranked 50 matches have a say or opinion and that all pug 50's and levels 49 and below aren't customers or people who have a voice. Disgusting behaviour, elitism at it's core.

 

I'm not an elitist, I just know how the game is played. I know when I pick up an MMORPG that 1v1 PVP isn't going to be the star point. It's a problem, yes, but its something that's hard to fix - or at least its something that developers don't want to put resources in -to- fix.

 

On the <49 customers - this guy isn't <49. He's fifty ... fighting lv25s. Thats a problem in itself and something that's being addressed.

 

RANT INCOMING!

 

Heres the thing: In duels - you have this guy/girl vs this guy/girl. There is no class. There is no, I'm an Imperial Agent and he/she is a Vanguard - or I'm an Assassin, he/she is a Conqueror. There's no given skills you learn - theres no backstab, theres no hail of furious strikes, theres no mutilate, theres no savage strike. Theres no math to consider, if I hit this guy/chick or if he hits me - and if it happened, how much. Theres none of that. Its you, and your preferred weapon - your mits, your gun, your sword, whatever.

 

In a video game: There is class. There is skills. And for there to be a reason for class and skills. X needs to do something that Y doesn't. Otherwise, why have it? So, sitting there trying to balance X to be different from Y, and to not have X better than Y is a taxing job, really when you consider Z and the rest of his buddies, and A is lv30 and B is lv20. I know this because I've sat down and made a board game with a few friends. Some things were stronger than others but theres a reason why there was multiple things. To help that weaker against the stronger. Because, it's going to happen - theres going to be the weaker and the stronger.

 

Do this - go make a board game. Make it so theres group play and single play. Then make sure all of that the group play is balanced through-out, and single play is balanced-through out. That no class/whatever is better than the other in group and single. Try it. Send me the rulebook so I can play too. Send others the rule-book. Send BioWare the rulebook. I'd love to see it - I truely would.

 

tl;dr: Balance is hard. True balance is impossible. There will always be FOTM, there will always be powerful classes in 1v1s. That is why no MMO is designed for it. Operative is a strong class - yes - but lets see it in an actual competitive field - not a PUG VS premade.

[Ashanor]

Just about every time you fight a fifty, you barely make it out alive....

 

You're fighting <45 and then screaming OP ... Let me bold this: You're fighting <45s and screaming OP. They have no gear to mitigate the burst Operatives do. None. You fight a fifty and it takes you well enough time for them to live and make a comeback. Imagine this in a full 50 w/ gear bracket. When lv50 brackets drop in AND the nerf ... can't wait to see how you feel then.

 

The classes you do catch alone and fifty are cloth classes... Thats what they ... do.

 

Burst class does burst damage.

 

I agree. It's a different ball game when fighting equally geared players.

[Panzerbat]

10 years of MMo experience and you still backpaddle?

[VertisReaper]

You have guard active on you 50% of the time, from your premade friends, and always use biochem consumables.

 

The Scoundrel / Operative burst is a little strong, but the main problem is consumables and biochem in particular. Nearly any class can crit over 5k after stacking consumables. If you don't have biochem you're at a massive disadvantage.

 

OP isn't even Biochem, did you even watch the video? you are retarded.

[longbawl]

Part of the problem is there is absolutely no reason to ever play a Shadow/Assassin.

 

I can do everything they can do but better. Sure if the fight lasts 30 seconds they can keep pumping out damage... but... the fights dont... do it doesn't matter.

 

There are lots of fine tunings they can do without ruining the class...

 

The fact I can Hidden strike, backstab, shiv, lacerate and probably have killed my target before most people even react is silly - even against 50s.

 

well not with current FOTM knowledge, assuming thats important to character choice. it does make those of us who chose our sins during EGA feel a little shafted that our stealth class is the red-headed stepchild of stealth combat. almost makes me want to give madness another shot. lol

[Chewstay]

Hey plastic if you want I have plenty of clips of me playing solo. Thats when I do most of the filming.

 

Problem is I had set up fraps wrong last week and filmed everything in ****** low quality.

 

I also wanted to refilm because when I started filming I had 0 gear and hitting for 5k was impressive. 1 week of playing a couple hours a night I was able to outfit in near full champ gear and now I crit for 6500 instead of 5000... further exemplifying how quickly the class gets out of hand.

 

 

I can also put together another video of plenty of "longer" fights vs 50s, but the results are all the same. They die, I have 80% health. It just takes 15 seconds instead of 3. Killing 50s in 3 seconds makes my point easier.

[Plastic]

Hey plastic if you want I have plenty of clips of me playing solo. Thats when I do most of the filming.

 

Problem is I had set up fraps wrong last week and filmed everything in ****** low quality.

 

I also wanted to refilm because when I started filming I had 0 gear and hitting for 5k was impressive. 1 week of playing a couple hours a night I was able to outfit in near full champ gear and now I crit for 6500 instead of 5000... further exemplifying how quickly the class gets out of hand.

 

 

I can also put together another video of plenty of "longer" fights vs 50s, but the results are all the same. They die, I have 80% health. It just takes 15 seconds instead of 3. Killing 50s in 3 seconds makes my point easier.

 

 

Sure. I'd love to see. While you're at it, get a buddy or two against two or three other well-geared / skilled players and film that too, I'd like to see the result. Best 2 of 3?

 

I don't care about quality - I just want information.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Plastic

[longbawl]

balance is hard. True balance is impossible. There will always be FOTM, there will always be powerful classes in 1v1s. That is why no MMO is designed for it. Operative is a strong class - yes - but lets see it in an actual competitive field - not a PUG VS premade.

 

thats why millions of us give a relatively small group of people millions of dollars each month....because its hard.

 

in a competitive field the numbers won't be as large, because everyone will have gear, but they will still be proportionately larger than everyone else. thats the point, that the playing field is tilted in general, not because this video shows a few ridic numbers on some lowbies. but because in general no one else in the game can do what an op does, not in a similar premade or pug or anything recreated but with a different class.

[Chewstay]

10 years of MMo experience and you still backpaddle?

 

Nice troll but you neglected to mention I also have 2 abilities I click on in my sidebar

[longbawl]

pretty sure its backpeddle....unless OP was in a boat and i missed it.

[Plastic]

thats why millions of us give a relatively small group of people millions of dollars each month....because its hard.

 

in a competitive field the numbers won't be as large, because everyone will have gear, but they will still be proportionately larger than everyone else. thats the point, that the playing field is tilted in general, not because this video shows a few ridic numbers on some lowbies. but because in general no one else in the game can do what an op does, not in a similar premade or pug or anything recreated but with a different class.

 

 

what was that?