MMO's (In general) biggest flaw...(Tank, healer, DPS)

[biere]

The tank, healer, DPS mindset for grouping. This doesn't work in the long run.

 

Everquest is calling on line 1.

[Mavajo]

I've never understood why the MMO Trinity has been viewed as mandatory. Could you just make every individual responsible for their own survival?

 

Why does the Boss always have to be focused on one guy?

 

Why does one set of players have to be specifically dedicated to healing?

 

Why does one set of palyers have to be specifically dedicated to DPS?

 

Here's a though. What if the "tank" also had mechanics to ensure his own survival? The skill of being a tank would revolve around holding aggro, while simultaneously keeping yourself alive.

 

And why do there have to be dedicated healers? What if part of beating the encounter successfully involved avoiding damage? Or every class had certain mechanics to help heal themselves, and the skill would involve a combination of avoiding damage and healing the damage that you can't or didn't avoid? You'd have to balance the task of dealing out DPS, while also making sure you keep yourself alive. Etc.

 

Sounds a lot more fun than being pigeon-holder into one role. And every class wouldn't have to be homogenous. The uniqueness would come in HOW your class does those things. Think of a Rogue that can use combo points to heal, or retreat from battle and utilize some sort of HOT. The skill of playing a Rogue would be putting out the maximum DPS, while still making sure to keep yourself alive -- either by well-timed retreats, or sacrificing resources (combo points) that could be used on DPS and use them for heals instead. Etc. Or here's a thought -- group heals that are accomplished by DPS'ing the Boss. The more DPS you crank out on the boss, the better group heals you put out -- helping to keep your raid alive. Now you're actively participating in the fight, rather than playing Wack A Mole.

[bluumberry]

I've never understood why the MMO Trinity has been viewed as mandatory.

 

I could also ask you why the trinity needs to be abolished?

 

I was originally interested in GW2 for example but after learning there's no trinity and thus no one for me to heal or no need for tanks, why should I even play it?

 

If you're having so much trouble getting healers/tanks, try running things with your guild. If you're not in a guild, why are you playing an mmo?

[Yfelsung]

I've never understood why the MMO Trinity has been viewed as mandatory. Could you just make every individual responsible for their own survival?

 

Why does the Boss always have to be focused on one guy?

 

Why does one set of players have to be specifically dedicated to healing?

 

Why does one set of palyers have to be specifically dedicated to DPS?

 

Here's a though. What if the "tank" also had mechanics to ensure his own survival? The skill of being a tank would revolve around holding aggro, while simultaneously keeping yourself alive.

 

And why do there have to be dedicated healers? What if part of beating the encounter successfully involved avoiding damage? Or every class had certain mechanics to help heal themselves, and the skill would involve a combination of avoiding damage and healing the damage that you can't or didn't avoid? You'd have to balance the task of dealing out DPS, while also making sure you keep yourself alive. Etc.

 

Sounds a lot more fun than being pigeon-holder into one role. And every class wouldn't have to be homogenous. The uniqueness would come in HOW your class does those things. Think of a Rogue that can use combo points to heal, or retreat from battle and utilize some sort of HOT. The skill of playing a Rogue would be putting out the maximum DPS, while still making sure to keep yourself alive -- either by well-timed retreats, or sacrificing resources (combo points) that could be used on DPS and use them for heals instead. Etc. Or here's a thought -- group heals that are accomplished by DPS'ing the Boss. The more DPS you crank out on the boss, the better group heals you put out -- helping to keep your raid alive. Now you're actively participating in the fight, rather than playing Wack A Mole.

 

Because making everyone reliant on others increases the need for group cohesion.

 

Some people are glory hogs. They're the type who generally dislike the trinity. I'm not trying to be insulting by using the term glory hog. It's just what they are. They want to be doing everything themselves.

 

Some of us enjoy the need to rely on your team to win. The carefully constructed web of DPS, tank and heals that, when even one strand is snapped, the whole web collapses.

 

I enjoy that. To me, a group playing like a well oiled machine is where I get my enjoyment.

 

If everyone is the same sized cog, it's not as enjoyable, for me, as if every person is a different cog that must fit together exactly to work.

 

Some people want to drive the ball hard and get the big dunk.

 

Some of us want to get MVP by having the most assists in a season.

 

Different mentality.

[ZORG]

Wasn't SWTOR even supposed to abolish the trinity? I like that the roles aren't quite as pronounced as in some other mmos, but they are definitely still there.

 

yeah but you can have a commando that heals he does pretty good dps as well. So I would have (Guardian/Vangard) (Sentinal/gubslinger/shadow) (Commando Heal spec/scoundrel) and Sage.

 

Yes this is still calling for the 3 major ROLES. The difference is SAGE can DPS like mad even if heal spec. So SAGE is not like the old EQ Cleric its like cleric/druid/shaman/ranger all in one...The Commando and scoundrel can backup heal

[Kurenar]

Some people are glory hogs. They're the type who generally dislike the trinity. I'm not trying to be insulting by using the term glory hog. It's just what they are. They want to be doing everything themselves.

 

Some people are intolerant. They're the type who generally make blanket statements about others without putting forth an honest effort to understand their way of thinking. I'm not trying to be insulting by asserting that they are intolerant. It's just what they are. Much of the time they can only find fulfillment in always being able to do something better than the next guy. Hence adhesion to clearly defined roles in video games.

[pocketthesaurus]

The holy trinity goes back to all RPGs.

 

In DND your fighter or paladin or sometimes, cleric, engage the enemy, bashing them down and beating on them, keeping their attention. During this your mage sits off to the side casting a spell that can nuke all of the bad guys. Meanwhile, your dudes with missile weapons shoot from afar and your rogue sneaks up on those enemies. And sometimes, you will have a bard or druid or cleric that might sit in the back also healing people.

 

Everything after the first sentence and before the last one is a list of characters that are pretty much DPS.

 

That's how it works. That is how it makes sense. That is how REAL life fighting would work. I play a live-action wargame with fantasy elements, and that is how it works there, too. The fighters take the front line while lighter armored people that can cause more damage and damage from afar can attack from other angles and a cleric sits in the back healing anybody that might need it.

[Yfelsung]

Some people are intolerant. They're the type who generally make blanket statements about others without putting forth an honest effort to understand their way of thinking. I'm not trying to be insulting by asserting that they are intolerant. It's just what they are. Much of the time they can only find fulfillment in always being able to do something better than the next guy. Hence adhesion to clearly defined roles in video games.

 

I was honestly not trying to be insulting with the term glory hog, but I honestly couldn't think of another way of saying the same thing.

 

I didn't say there was anything wrong with that type of person. They're the one who wants to drive for the basket. The guy who wants to hit the home run.

 

That's an acceptable way of playing and that type of person probably doesn't like the strict restrictions of a trinity system.

 

I am, instead, a more assist and support type personality. I'd rather dish the rock then go for the dunk.

 

Honestly, that wasn't even meant to be passive aggressive insult or anything. If you can give me an alternate word to use that's less insulting, I will gladly use it.

[BloatedGuppy]

I was honestly not trying to be insulting with the term glory hog, but I honestly couldn't think of another way of saying the same thing.

 

You HONESTLY couldn't think of a better term for someone who wants to "do everything themselves" than GLORY HOG?

 

How about "self sufficient"?

[Syas]

Players nowadays want everything handed to them and don't want to have to develop relationships within their server community. I can't act like a toolbag because I still have to look in LFG for a healer or tank.

 

 

Fixed that for you.

[Yfelsung]

You HONESTLY couldn't think of a better term for someone who wants to "do everything themselves" than GLORY HOG?

 

How about "self sufficient"?

 

Self sufficient doesn't necessarily get across the same mindset.

 

I'm self sufficient, I'm just also a team player.

 

What I mean is that there's people who don't want to rely on others. They want to shine. To star.

 

That's beyond self sufficiency.

[Drewser]

The tank, healer, DPS mindset for grouping. This doesn't work in the long run. You will force certain players to play a healer or tank when they really just want to DPS.

 

The ONLY MMO that I have seen that makes this work is World of Warcraft. Don't flame cause I said WoW, I have played just about every single MMO for the past 14 years.

 

 

Stopped there since CoH did a WAY better job at eliminating tank, healer and DPS for about 99% of their content.

[BloatedGuppy]

Self sufficient doesn't necessarily get across the same mindset.

 

I'm self sufficient, I'm just also a team player.

 

What I mean is that there's people who don't want to rely on others. They want to shine. To star.

 

That's beyond self sufficiency.

 

I think what you mean to say is you don't LIKE IT when people want to be able to do everything themselves, without relying on other players, so the term SELF SUFFICIENT doesn't fit your confirmation bias regarding the mentality of said players.

 

If you spent less time trying to psychoanalyze total strangers you meet on the internet you might be able to brainstorm less blatantly antagonistic terms than "Glory Hog" to get your point across.

[LeSamourai]

The issue is already prevalent on Republic side. It's literally IMPOSSIBLE at times to find flashpoint groups, even during PEAK hours.

 

I've had days go by when I've signed in periodically to LF Athiss/Mando/etc (some to help lowbies, others because I'd like to do them) and not been able to find but maybe 1-2 people to go (almost ALWAYS missing that 4th person lol )

 

It seems like everyone that rolled Republic is doing it/did it solely for PvP availability.

[Liquid_Drano]

You may be in luck... GW2 says they are doing away with the MMO trinity. However, that's a ways off. Until then, enjoy SWTOR!

 

There isn't a true way around this I don't think. Even what ArenaNet is saying, they mean ANYONE can hold aggro at a given time. You just have to sequence out, and another person comes in to keep attention of mob. What would you call the person drawing the attention of the mob while others damage him? A tank.

 

Yes, you are right in a sense. While leveling, you will not have to choose whether to be a tank, a healer, or DPS; however, there will ALWAYS be those who keep the attention of a mob, those who heal he or she who keeps the attention of the mob, and those who focus on avoiding the attention of the mob while damaging the mob.

[BloatedGuppy]

Stopped there since CoH did a WAY better job at eliminating tank, healer and DPS for about 99% of their content.

 

It's true, you could just roll a Fire Tanker and solo 100% of the game's content without breaking a sweat.

 

I'm not sure we should be propping up CoH as an example of good game design.

[Drewser]

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

 

If you scroll down to just under the comic strip you will learn more than you are ready to know about GW2. It is the new generation of MMOs, be prepared my friends, be prepared.

 

Sounds like they are copying CoH.

[Yfelsung]

I think what you mean to say is you don't LIKE IT when people want to be able to do everything themselves, without relying on other players, so the term SELF SUFFICIENT doesn't fit your confirmation bias regarding the mentality of said players.

 

If you spent less time trying to psychoanalyze total strangers you meet on the internet you might be able to brainstorm less blatantly antagonistic terms than "Glory Hog" to get your point across.

 

First of all, again, I wasn't trying to be insulting or say that there's anything wrong with the type of player who doesn't like the trinity. Not once did I say there's a problem with this play style. People can play anyway they want.

 

I'm just pointing out that GW2 doesn't appeal to every type of player.

 

A lot of people flying the GW2 flag, and I'm not saying ALL, or even you, seem to believe that NO ONE likes the trinity. They seem to believe "everyone just wants to be DPS anyway".

 

I'm just explaining that there are different mindsets in different players and some of us like the highly structured team play of the trinity and many don't.

 

Those who don't often express their dislike of relying on others to get content done.

 

I'm just trying to deflate the idea that everyone hates the trinity.

[Zhiroc]

I'm not sure as the extent that forum posters here play much other than MMOs, but you only have to look at BW's Mass Effect RPG for a system that has no tanks and no healers for the most part.

 

Even the tanky-est soldier class Shepard will go down real quick if he were to try to stand up and soak the damage. People have specialties, but mostly offensive specialties: being able to strip shields, make opponents' weapons ineffective, long-range sniping, etc.

 

I've never liked playing the trinity. It's one of the things that turned me off to Dragon Age, which I never finished after two tries.

[Drewser]

It's true, you could just roll a Fire Tanker and solo 100% of the game's content without breaking a sweat.

 

I'm not sure we should be propping up CoH as an example of good game design.

 

Not saying it is the best designed game, simple that it did away with having to have a dedicated tank/healer in all challenging content. The OP seemed to be unaware of this.

[ApesAmongUs]

I have often considered the same points you are making, but you don't propose a solution.

 

What would the difference between classes look like? You can't let tank or healers DPS as well as dedicated DPSers or the DPS class would be pointless. So what do you do just make everyone the same?

Well, you could not have DPS classes at all. That's what I thought when I looked at BH and SIs. Choose tank/DPS or healer/DPS. Then the IA and SW, unfortunately only have half of the choice, leaving one side to DPS only. If warriors could heal and snipers tank, you would have no need of anyone needing pure DPS.

 

That doesn't make everyone the same. SW tank and BH tank already play differently, and the same kind of differentiation could be made between a SW healer and a BH healer.

[qqemokitty]

I've never understood why the MMO Trinity has been viewed as mandatory. Could you just make every individual responsible for their own survival?

 

Why does the Boss always have to be focused on one guy?

 

Why does one set of players have to be specifically dedicated to healing?

 

Why does one set of palyers have to be specifically dedicated to DPS?

 

Here's a though. What if the "tank" also had mechanics to ensure his own survival? The skill of being a tank would revolve around holding aggro, while simultaneously keeping yourself alive.

 

And why do there have to be dedicated healers? What if part of beating the encounter successfully involved avoiding damage? Or every class had certain mechanics to help heal themselves, and the skill would involve a combination of avoiding damage and healing the damage that you can't or didn't avoid? You'd have to balance the task of dealing out DPS, while also making sure you keep yourself alive. Etc.

 

Sounds a lot more fun than being pigeon-holder into one role. And every class wouldn't have to be homogenous. The uniqueness would come in HOW your class does those things. Think of a Rogue that can use combo points to heal, or retreat from battle and utilize some sort of HOT. The skill of playing a Rogue would be putting out the maximum DPS, while still making sure to keep yourself alive -- either by well-timed retreats, or sacrificing resources (combo points) that could be used on DPS and use them for heals instead. Etc. Or here's a thought -- group heals that are accomplished by DPS'ing the Boss. The more DPS you crank out on the boss, the better group heals you put out -- helping to keep your raid alive. Now you're actively participating in the fight, rather than playing Wack A Mole.

 

Because I don't want to be self sufficient. That's what single player games are for.

 

I want to be part of a team. Different people in the team have different roles that support the team in different ways. Then we all come together to defeat TEH DRAGONZ together, each lending our special skill. The damage dealers kill the dragon, the tank holds the dragons attention by stabbing him in the eyes and yelling a lot, and the healers keep everyone else alive long enough to allow the puny humans to slay the giant dragon. Doing this together instead of slaying the dragon on your own is what sets an MMO game apart from a single player RPG.

 

If everyone can dps and everyone can heal themselves and there is no threat table and there is no need for player interaction, what the hell is the point of it being a multi player game?

[ApesAmongUs]

It's true, you could just roll a Fire Tanker and solo 100% of the game's content without breaking a sweat.

 

I'm not sure we should be propping up CoH as an example of good game design.

Why not? Nothing you said there makes the game sound bad. Being able to solo effectively in the game is a positive.

[BloatedGuppy]

Why not? Nothing you said there makes the game sound bad. Being able to solo effectively in the game is a positive.

 

It's less of a positive when only one class/spec can do it, and do it about 800% more efficiently than anyone else.

 

People who scoff at poor balancing in most modern MMOs did not play CoH at launch.

[qqemokitty]

First of all, again, I wasn't trying to be insulting or say that there's anything wrong with the type of player who doesn't like the trinity. Not once did I say there's a problem with this play style. People can play anyway they want.

 

I'm just pointing out that GW2 doesn't appeal to every type of player.

 

A lot of people flying the GW2 flag, and I'm not saying ALL, or even you, seem to believe that NO ONE likes the trinity. They seem to believe "everyone just wants to be DPS anyway".

 

I'm just explaining that there are different mindsets in different players and some of us like the highly structured team play of the trinity and many don't.

 

Those who don't often express their dislike of relying on others to get content done.

 

I'm just trying to deflate the idea that everyone hates the trinity.

 

I like you! And you signature. It's too bad we can't be part of a team together.