Retractable Blade VS Heatblast

[BlazingShadow]

So I'm debating whether or not to trade off Heat Blast (top tier shieldtech talent) and the 2 points I have in Iron Fist in order to acquire Retractable blade, the reason being is Heat Blast is basically just an extra flameburst every 15sec whereas Retractable Blade is a 15sec DoT that is (apparently) 4x better than my Ion Cylinder DoT.

 

This is the template I was planning on using before experiencing heat blast:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RRMrdRrogzZbsbZb.1

 

And then I realized how god-awful it was. I mean, sure, it's a free flameburst that reimburses me 8 heat, and it has a pretty sweet animation IMO, but... I pvp alot, and our damage as tanks with cookiecutter setups is pretty god-awful. I understand that with tanking, it's a marathon, not a race, and that +8heat (or -8heat whatever) can knock me into a better regeneration tier, but... I manage my heat very well, and I keep aggro very well as it is.

 

This is the template I plan on using in a bit:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRMrdorogZbsr0o.1

 

Losing heatblast isn't the concern for me, TBH. I may consume a bit more heat because of the added ability, but I gain a DoT that will speed up the time it takes to whittle down a boss or kill a player.

 

My question is, what is everyone's thoughts on trading heatblast for Retractable blade? I've read a few threads about it, but the info seems a bit dated (posted 1week+ ago) and I'm wondering if anyone's feelings have changed either way.

[JackStarburst]

I haven't used Heat Blast yet, but everyone I have seen that has says it sucks. So, I don't see anything wrong with spending that point on something else.

 

As far as blade vs. more dmg to rocket punch, I guess I would prefer the increased rocket punch damage since you use it so much. I have no idea which results in more dps, but I like keeping things simple when it comes to tanking, and having to keep track of 1 more cooldown for the blade further complicates things. It is certainly a viable option though.

 

I think I am going to take the point from heat blast, also drop Prototype Cylinders (since I heard Ion Cylinder's damage is screwed up) and put those 2 points into Rail Loaders. I like the idea of increased damage on an ability that also has 60% armor penetration.

[badalchemist]

I dropped Heat Blast to get Retractable Blade around 43ish, and I'm not sure it was any "better". The damage is pretty so-so, and I have to do a lot more heat management than before. I'm probably going to respec into 21/0/18 when I hit 48 to wind up in the 21/2/18 ST/Pyro PvP build.

[threas]

The main purpose of retractable blade is to have a on demand dot to use rail shot with when you are AP. Since the AP cylinder doesn't have a dot you have to use retractable blade instead, i am not sure it is supposed to be a good dps ability, it is more of a setup ability.

[Tenacity]

Breakdown:

 

 

Heat Blast

 

Pros:

-Can keep you in a higher range of heat dissipation if used at the right time in your rotation.

-Free attack, good for a backup bit of burst threat if you're overheated.

-Does elemental damage, which is boosted by several talents (fire damage bonuses) and bypasses armor mitigation.

-Gives you the spare points needed to pick up the 8% extra damage to rocket punch in pyrotech.

 

Cons:

-Low damage output

-Very poor animation/visual effect (it's a simple pistol shot, entirely uninspired)

 

 

Retractable Blade

 

Pros:

-Much higher damage than Heat Blast (after scaling, more than double the potential damage of heat blast).

-A little more than half of blade's damage is internal, which bypasses armor.

-Can continue dealing damage to the target if you get stunned/knocked back, due to being a damage over time effect.

-Very cool looking attack animation.

 

Cons:

-Initial damage is kinetic, which is reduced by armor.

-16 heat cost makes it pretty difficult to fit into a typical tanking rotation without overheating.

-Much shorter range than Heat Blast (4 meters vs 10)

 

 

 

It's been a very tough decision for me on which to go with. For the purposes of heat management, even though heat blast's heat reduction amount is so low, there is no rival. However, retractable blade is a much 'cooler' ability overall, and mixes nicely with the melee style play of the shieldtech.

 

While levelling up, I went with heat blast, however now that I'm 50 I've considered changing over to retractable blade for the higher damage output to help deal with high end elites.

 

 

Looking at the math, the 8% damage difference on rocket punch from pyrotech talents at level 50 provides roughly a 100-120 damage improvement on non-crit rocket punches, and around 200 damage improvement on crits. Retractable blade does around 800-1000 damage over the duration minimum, while heat blast tends to hit for around 600-700, so I think overall retractable blade would be a pure damage increase.

[Morticoccus]

It's a retractable arm blade.

Do you really need any other reason to pick the skill? I mean, you are a total ****** in power armor. You've got flamethrowers, missiles, explosive darts, jetpacks, grappling bolts and a custom blaster accepting all sorts of awesome cylinder enhancements...

 

And with this skill you also have the ability to pop a vibroblade out of your wristguard and stab the crap out of your opponent, what more do you want?

 

I may still love my Operative the best, but Advanced Prototype BH is definitely my favorite imp alt, just because you are a complete ****** in power armor.

 

Did I mention how awesome the wrist blade looks? =p

[JaxinRiens]

Retract is amazing for pvp warzones that deal with captures. A 15 second dot can really ruin someones day trying to plant a bomb or cap a turret.

 

Key to using it is to spam it on everyone while you wait to die if you are overwelmed guarding a turret then once you die everyone is dotted and you come back before they wear off and repeat the process.

[MorningMusume]

For pvp maybe is a viable option, but for PvE I don't really see the benefits. Heat is our main concern, and changing one free skill with extra heat vent for a 16 heat skill will change the rest of the rotation.

 

A 15 secs rotation with Heat Blast will have a heat surplus of 24. That's 1.6 heat/second, or 1 16 heat skill every 10 seconds. So you will need to change some other skill to Rapid Shots every 10 seconds.

 

For each 2 Retractable Blade (30 seconds), you lose 3x16 heat skills (or other combination) that needs to be changed to Rapid Shots. So the damage benefit 2 RB - 2 HB needs to be bigger than those 3 skills - Rapid Shots. And of course the 8% loss on our hardest hitting skill, Rocket Punch.

Edited January 4, 2012 by MorningMusume

[Tenacity]

We took on a world boss tonight and, as the main tank, I decided to give the retractable blade setup a go instead of my usual heat blast build (that I levelled with).

 

In short, it isnt worth taking. Despite heat blast's relatively underwhelming tooltip/effect, it really is extremely useful for heat management - I had severe overheating issues without it, overheated three times during the boss fight and once was without vent heat to save me, ended up having to taunt due to lost aggro while I was overheated.

 

One thing that I hadnt really considered before is that we have no real talents as shieldtechs that improve retractable blade's damage - however, we've got two that readily apply to heat blast: Prototype burn enhancers (+6% critical chance) and Intimidation (+6% damage). Both are standard in shieldtech pve builds.

 

All in all, heat blast does do slightly less damage than retractable blade (taking into account both the initial kinetic damage as well as the DoT internal damage, vs heat blast's elemental damage), but the fact that it costs nothing and actually reduces heat level makes it much more valuable than you'd think just taking it at face value.

 

 

 

My only peeve with the ability now is that it looks ridiculously lame. A hip-fired blaster shot is not a fitting animation for a tier 7 talent, and I really hope they come up with something better for it in the future.

 

 

EDIT:

 

One other thing to consider is that flamethrower - one of our primary attacks for threat generation even against single targets - costs 25 heat. Over the three-second channel duration, assuming you're at 0 heat when you begin using flamethrower, you'll end up with a net gain of 10 heat (5 heat dropped per second over the 3 second duration = 15 heat vented while channeling, 10 heat remaining). Following up flamethrower with a heat blast basically means you've just done 2500-3000+ damage for a total cost of 2 heat, and with the advanced tools talent both skills are on the same cooldown at 15 seconds.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Tenacity

[MosesMercury]

I see so many people are attempting to add this in. I chalk it up to pure aesthetics. I know I just want it because it is cool looking. Would anyone be game for the animation of blast being changed to some kind of blade? Or do you think the dps powertechs would be put out? I mean come on. This is Shieldtech's top tier ability. Why can't we have a stabby stabby animation. Just my 2 cents.

[dardack]

I was ST/Adv Hybrid build for awhile. Now i'm the ST/Pyro build, 21/2/18 or w/e it is.

 

Love it.

[BlazingShadow]

I see alot of people labelling Heat Blast's animation "lame"... believe me, to me, it's anything but lame. I'm glad that shieldtech has a blaster ability when everything else they have is left-handed and having to do with gadgetry. It makes for a lovely coup de gras on low level mobs... it's a fun ability, I'll give it that, but my point is labelling the aesthetics as "lame" does not constitute a valid argument as to why you should drop it.

 

I understand concerns about heat management when you trade off a heatsink for another 16heat ability, but... I'm concerned as to why heat is hard to manage? More importantly, why it makes threat so hard to manage? I've never run out of heat in PVE except when I've had to blow every single thing I had, and flamethrower doesnt need to be applied every time it's up.

 

I guess the only way to really tell is test it for myself, THank you all anyways.

[Ogadai]

If you havent had issues with heat then you're fights havent been long enough or you're just not high enough level. Heat becomes a major issue later on when you're popping skills off to keep aggro up, interrupt things, pull adds, and stun things

[chainsawsamurai]

If you havent had issues with heat then you're fights havent been long enough or you're just not high enough level. Heat becomes a major issue later on when you're popping skills off to keep aggro up, interrupt things, pull adds, and stun things

 

lolnoitdoesn't.

 

Heat management gets better when you're higher level because you get more talents to Vent.

 

Also, half the crap you mentioned contributing to your heat level don't cost heat.

[Ogadai]

lolnoitdoesn't.

 

Heat management gets better when you're higher level because you get more talents to Vent.

 

Also, half the crap you mentioned contributing to your heat level don't cost heat.

 

Really?

 

Electro-dart 16 heat

Quell 8 heat

Carbonize 8 heat

 

Also, what are these magic talents that you have to reduce heat so well? Shield vents? Would be great except its limited to every 6 seconds maximum. Other than heat blast you dont really have a whole lot of great ways to vent heat besides shield vents and those help but dont keep up with your heat.

 

Realistically heat blast is going to be your best friend, besides keeping you cooler it also allows you to add in more DPS attacks on top of its DPS so while its not a stellar talent on paper, given where else we can shove the point its your best bet

[chainsawsamurai]

Also, what are these magic talents that you have to reduce heat so well? Shield vents?

 

That and all those nifty talents I picked up from the Pyrotech tree because I wasn't stupid enough to shackle myself to Heat Blast's .5 heat/sec and pretend it's a good talent.

 

I guess you're right, those other things do cost Heat. Was never a problem to me because, you know, I'm venting or saving 4x as much as you are.

 

Realistically heat blast is going to be your best friend, besides keeping you cooler it also allows you to add in more DPS attacks on top of its DPS so while its not a stellar talent on paper, given where else we can shove the point its your best bet

 

No it's not. If you're having heat problems it proves that it is not. You're also not adding nearly as much damage/threat as the Pyro talents do.

Edited January 5, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Pellaz]

That and all those nifty talents I picked up from the Pyrotech tree because I wasn't stupid enough to shackle myself to Heat Blast's .5 heat/sec and pretend it's a good talent.

 

I guess you're right, those other things do cost Heat. Was never a problem to me because, you know, I'm venting or saving 4x as much as you are.

 

Rapid Venting isn't going to do 4x as much heat dissipation as Heat Blast. Really curious where you are coming from here, especially as aggressive as you are being. Unless you are relying on the target being burning (always partying with a pyrotech?), relying on being stunned/knocked down, or being irrelevant by bringing up points that apply when you aren't tanking (ie, using combustible) to someone talking about tanking, I can't see how what you say adds up.

 

Please explain.

[chainsawsamurai]

Rapid Venting isn't going to do 4x as much heat dissipation as Heat Blast. Really curious where you are coming from here, especially as aggressive as you are being. Unless you are relying on the target being burning (always partying with a pyrotech?), relying on being stunned/knocked down, or being irrelevant by bringing up points that apply when you aren't tanking (ie, using combustible) to someone talking about tanking, I can't see how what you say adds up.

 

Please explain.

 

Maybe I stumbled into the wrong thread... I was expecting a different climate.

 

But yeah I'll explain, since you asked nice.

 

There are two builds which forego Heat Blast for more out of Adv Proto or Pyrotech. The Adv Proto one is a bit gamey, but the Pyrotech reliably gives you a metric crapton of free Rail Shots.

 

 

Rail Shot is a part of the Powertech tanking rotation, a very powerful part. Even if you only did the same amount of Rail Shots as a normal Shieldtech (not going to happen, but lets play devils advocate here) then Pyro talents are making it free.

 

That is a savings of 16 heat every 15 seconds rather than Heat Blast giving you 8 every 15 seconds. All without overcomplicating your tanking rotation with Heat Blast (which makes you want to stay below 40 heat like normal, but be above 13 when you use Heat Blast).

 

Now we factor in multiple free Rail Shots, which refund 8 heat due to Incendiary Missile. The threat gain is monumental, you can go entire boss fights without using Rapid Shot and bang out more Rails than Charlie Sheen (see what I did there?).

 

Edit: I haven't tried the Adv Proto version of the ST/Pyro which gives free Rocket Punches to do approximately the same by saving heat rather than venting. Point is that Heat Blast is so terrible it makes me cry myself to sleep at night and Ret Blade is an easy threat gain over it (even though Ret Blade is pretty terrible too).

Edited January 5, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Pellaz]

Aha, that makes a lot more sense - not having played Pyro at all, I didn't even think about IM burning a target!

 

I am having a lot of trouble even thinking about just dipping into the Pyro tree myself - not a huge fan of Heat Blast, I just keep seeing ~10 wasted talent points in Pyro to get to that level - is it really worth it?

 

Cardio/Bursting Flame = 3 ; Superheated Gas =3 Infrared/Degauss = 2 and I just can't feel good about 2 in Gyroscopic.

[chainsawsamurai]

Cardio/Bursting Flame = 3 ; Superheated Gas =3 Infrared/Degauss = 2 and I just can't feel good about 2 in Gyroscopic.

 

Cardio isn't wasted persay, just pretty damn lackluster.

 

Infrared adds Melee and Ranged defense. 1% per point. A full tank build wont get that much mitigation out of Empowered Tech per point investment until they reach 50% absorb. Unfortunately the Stealth Detection is a wash in PvE, doesn't detect anything and Stealth Scan is pretty worthless in straight PvE (wont even get HK47).

 

Gyroscopic Alignment Jets is worth more than it looks like. Tanks get battered by all sorts of obnoxious CC in this game, might as well vent some heat when it happens.

 

Superheated gas is a waste of points, yes. Flat out. However Superheated Rail and Prototype Particle accelerator are worth the investment, and then some.

 

Most of the significant content in this game is a DPS check with Enrage Timers, or a Heal check (not because the tank gets hit hard, but because of AoE damage on the rest of the group).

 

I've never wiped because I haven't mitigated enough damage, I have wiped because we didn't do enough damage to beat the Enrage timer. ST/Pyro is the bee's knees and any build that forgoes Heat Blast for more damage elsewhere will have an edge where it matters.

[Ogadai]

To do that though it seems like you're wasting a lot of talents on combustible gas cylinder which is not really active when tanking.

 

I can see where this is a viable pvp/tanking hybrid build but i guess it seems i'm giving up a lot of free procs and passives in my most common stance of ion gas cylinder to gain some extra damage.

 

To each his own i guess, but it seems if you've gone that deep in to shieldtech that there are a lot worse places to throw 1 talent point unless you are going to forgo one of the other trees specifically.

 

I will say i like your build idea alot better than the Retractable Blade specs i've seen

Edited January 5, 2012 by Ogadai

[BrianBairstow]

Last week I made a math thread in the Vanguard forums about the mirror abilities (Energy Blast and Gut). The basic conclusion was that a 31/10/0 spec and a 30/11/0 spec will do about the same damage (and thus the same threat) once the Heat Blast spec makes use of the extra heat venting. Take a look if you like.

 

The free rail shot build looks pretty interesting/promising, though it isn't quite the apple-to-apples comparison and harder to calculate.

[chainsawsamurai]

I will say i like your build idea alot better than the Retractable Blade specs i've seen

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301G0Grd0roZMsrrobZb.1

Something like that anyway, I don't remember exactly.

 

This is the "good" Retractable Blade spec. I haven't tried it but it is the only one that takes care of the "Heat problems." You lose some shield chance, but that's pretty piss poor mitigation unless you've got a lot of absorb anyway.

 

It makes up for lack of Heat Blast (theoretically, and then some) by having Flame Barrage. I don't like that you only have one of Flame Barrage's triggers (the Pyro Build gets Rocket Punch and Flame Burst to trigger Rails), so I haven't tried it. However with the current state of tanking I think this one is the best shot at a ST/RetBlade spec that doesn't suck.

 

 

Even without extra Heat management, a typical StormGut spec dropping Heat Blast for Ret Blade will have better single target aggro and damage. Not really enough so to freak about about, but whatever floats your boat.