Evilbrood Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 operative teams ftw? I demand you think before you post, operative burst is such that they can burst someone before they can get heals (unless in vent, mumble etc), roll full operative teams ftw. New idea, thanks! This who thread is pointless when Operatives are wet paper bags when they get hit. In a team fight if you get bursted down cause of one then you deserve it and your team wasn't paying attention. Play a 50 sage healer and always pvp with friends (Troopers) which actually know how to peel. Yes in a 1v1 a Operative will have the upper hand but in a team based fight they are meh. Trying to balance the game 1v1 is going to ruin the pvp in this game. Seriously just focus them down and they die quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Operatives are REALLY playing up the whole "squishy" deal. You're talking as though the class folds in half from a slight breeze. The class has very powerful cooldowns and heals. You'll probably lose against another melee class in a straight 1v1 fight without any opener (assuming equal gear and skill), but you're not going to get steamrolled. Your class is a priority focus target because of your retarded burst. Not because you're defenseless. Yeah, it's like healers saying they're squishy since if the other team knows what they're doing you'll see 3 guys beating a healer down immediately. Well, 3 guys tend to take out anybody even a tank pretty fast, and they picked the healer not because he's more squishy than say, a melee DPS, but that a healer if left alone is a lot more dangerous than a melee DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastion-fox Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 First it was Sorc/Sage is OP because of constant lighting/pebbles. Then it was BH is OP because of the massive AoE dmg and tracers. Then sin/shadow is OP because of the force speed and vanish. Now it's op/scound because they are the burst class and kill too fast. Next it'll be sniper/gunslinger because its too strong and has the furthest range. Then warrior/knights because once 50 and geared they stomp anything without trying. Looks like everything comes into it's own and becomes OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tindstar Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Do you people honestly demand that pvp should be balanced on every lvl between 10 and 50? no other mmo offers this ............... if not, then wait to lvl 50 and check the situation again. As a 50 operative with some PvP gear, I have never no chance of DPS'ing a lvl 50 down within the knock down phase, and I get torn apart by the tank and healer classes more often then not - so the trouble is not within the lvl 50 bracket. The operative is easily the worst pvp class up until around lvl 40 (maybe the change from easy target gets to some people?) - so trouble is not pre 40. This really boils down to - if you're not lvl 50 yet, expect to lose to a lvl 50 and expect to lose fast. Same goes with a 50 ungeared vs a 50 geared out. I really like this thread for comparisment (best pvp class in swtor) - makes these nerf calling threads a bit silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YpaWinz Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 They are over powered. Plain and simple. They need the burst dps lowered a lot and drop one of their CC spam abilities, than they might be balanced. No class should ever be able to open up from stealth and 2 shot someone before they can even react. Those idiots playing Operatives/Scoundrels that think skill is giving them the wins are only fooling themselves. Expect a big fat nerf you idiots. I've yet to "2-shot" anyone. Nor have I been "2-shot" by any operative. 50 or otherwise. Operative burst is good. 50 vs 50, it's decent. It's supposed to be, but that's assuming the person being bursted has some idea of how to react and play their class. There's no such thing as "CC Spam." I can stun you, then I can root you. That's it. If I hidden strike you and then I'm dumb enough try to follow up with debilitate, you're going to take the ~300 dmg from my debilitate and that's it, there won't be any stun associated with it until after your resolve bar is empty again. If you haven't reacted to me by then, my stun is the least of your worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlodo Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) part of it is expertise, that is why you see 50s 3 shotting people and critting for like 6-8k remove expertise from the game and like 90% of the problems in warzones disappears Removing expertise wouldn't change that at all, 50s with decent gear would still have much higher stats than non-50s and steamroll them all the same. In wow too there were people who for some reason blamed every pvp problem on resilience. I can't help but think that people who keep blaming the "pvp stat" are PvEers who wish that their raid gear would give them an edge in pvp. Edited January 3, 2012 by Zlodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 First it was Sorc/Sage is OP because of constant lighting/pebbles. Then it was BH is OP because of the massive AoE dmg and tracers. Then sin/shadow is OP because of the force speed and vanish. Now it's op/scound because they are the burst class and kill too fast. Next it'll be sniper/gunslinger because its too strong and has the furthest range. Then warrior/knights because once 50 and geared they stomp anything without trying. Looks like everything comes into it's own and becomes OP. In all these cases you're really talking about a case where your team got rolled by the other side and you're jealous of whoever came in top of the medal list/DPS/heal meter on the leaderboard. The Operative isn't like that. They don't necessarily even put up extremely good numbers on leaderboard but if you paid attention you'll know that's why you lost that map because your ball carrier got dropped or you lost a guy immediately during a fight near a key objective in Alderaan/Voidstar. For the other examples, if a guy is at the top of list it's because he played well in a team that was already winning. You won't ever see a Sniper or BH or a Sorcerer just remove one guy instantly even if some of these guys feel like they're practically immortal when you're on the losing side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khayleth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Removing expertise wouldn't change that at all, 50s with decent gear would still have much higher stats than non-50s. In wow too people for some reason blamed every pvp problem on resilience. I can't help but think that people who keep blaming the "pvp stat" are pveers would wish their raid gear would give them an edge in pvp. Expertise as is, is not a good stat at all. Let me state straight up though that there does need to be a PVP stat to keep PVE players from steamrolling over PVPers. The problem I have with expertise is this: Assuming equal gear, expertise does nothing. If you have 10% reduced damage taken and +10% damage dealt and I have the same, then the expertise is essentially useless. But against people without expertise, it's overpowered. My proposed solution to get the burst under control: Double the reduction from player based attacks. So using the random numbers above, +10% damage dealt to players, -20% damage taken from players and that number scales up. Maybe capping out at say... 33% reduced damage taken so people aren't walking around with nearly half of the attacks mitigated entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crujido Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Its the anti-healer I can assure you that. OP? I don't believe so. When focus fired, they drop very fast and LoS makes them almost worthless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toothsome Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 There is no valid argument that Op/scoundrels can make, they're OP as hell and need to be nerfed. There is no reason someone should be able to kill you in 3 seconds from 100% to dead in a single CC knockdown. It's broken as hell and needs to be fixed. its called most ops/scoundrels are smart enough to get the powerball = your dead... wthout it they dont kill anyone in a single rotation unless they are low lvl scrubs... that dont know how 2 lvl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifewrench Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 The same can be said for those dying TO operatives. If we're not medicine spec'd, we don't have an "instant" heal. We have 1 "escape" mechanic, just like every other class. We do have a talent that let's our threat wipe clear movement impairment, but that's only if we spec heavy into the shared tree. Not having ever spec'd into it myself, I can't say whether or not it shares a CD w/ Escape, though I would assume not since it's not the same kind ability fundamentally. You could argue that Cloaking Screen is an escape mechanic, but it's on a 3 min CD (2 if talented for it) and is rendered ineffective by DoTs. So because your defenses are on long timers, that makes you unable to kill people in two seconds? Why are you giving non-sequitors to the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifewrench Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 When focus fired, they drop very fast and LoS makes them almost worthless Anyone dies under focus fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YpaWinz Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 So because your defenses are on long timers, that makes you unable to kill people in two seconds? Why are you giving non-sequitors to the problem? ...what? I replied to you saying this: Originally Posted by Knifewrench If you're playing an operative and you are dying as one, you are failing to use your instant heals and escape mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruojake Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Gonna roll my operative from healer to dps tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crujido Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Anyone dies under focus fire. Yeah, exactly. Focus fire them with the 4 people you should be queing with. The other best way to beat them is LoS. Only a sage atm so thats my way of fighting them. LoS or focus fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zlodo Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Expertise as is, is not a good stat at all. Let me state straight up though that there does need to be a PVP stat to keep PVE players from steamrolling over PVPers. The problem I have with expertise is this: Assuming equal gear, expertise does nothing. No. But should it? Is its function to prevent pve gear from being competitive in pvp, or to reduce burst damage? In wow resilience did both because the way the game balance ended up they needed that as a fix to get burst damage under control in pvp without affecting pve. But that was a solution to a problem that imo doesn't seem to exist in swtor so far. The problem of 50s versus non 50s is of a different nature in my opinion, which is simply that post 50 you get into a gear race (which would be just the same even without expertise) which non 50s have no possibility to participate into. And it's for that reason that 50s should be in their own bracket. But against people without expertise, it's overpowered. That's the whole point. You said: "there does need to be a PVP stat to keep PVE players from steamrolling over PVPers". It means that this stat is going to be overpowered against people who don't have it, it's its entire point. Edited January 3, 2012 by Zlodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjwho Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 stealth class with heal and enough stuns to do more than neccesary dmg to win 1v1. Look, not saying its overpowered, just that the class can win vs. every class if on even terms and they start out stealth. I'd like to say its skill, but as they have a nice 8 second flashbang JUST INCASE you gain advantage, i can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Karsk Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 commandos have zero escape mechanics. We have very little utility and once an op opens up on your, the best thing you can do is dps as fast as you can. Only the dot spec commando can maybe survive a little longer but still in the same boat, can't do anything because all our skills require cast time, and then we have to deal with pushback on abilities making our dps rough, an interupt delays our attack and kills us faster. This, as a lvl 50 trooper who enjoy a good 1 vs 1 with good gear, i like any one else who actually have a brain knows that OP is OP.And BW better fix this issue soon.We told them about this all the time in beta but as always they ignored us.There were so many threads about it then, and now we have the same thing from new players to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YpaWinz Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 stealth class with heal and enough stuns to do more than neccesary dmg to win 1v1. Look, not saying its overpowered, just that the class can win vs. every class if on even terms and they start out stealth. I'd like to say its skill, but as they have a nice 8 second flashbang JUST INCASE you gain advantage, i can't. The skill part is that most average players won't know when to use that flashbang. Many would use it, not realizing you were still inflicted w/ one of their dots, making it worthless. Or they'll use it not realizing you still have white in your resolve bar. Or more to the point, it's about paying attention. Assuming equal level and ~equal gear. The player who pays the most attention to what's going on is going to have the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeuxus Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 No joke I bet 90% of the scoundrels are op threads are made from consular/inquisitors who have a complete **** AC and are getting blown the **** up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRISGG Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 How is taking someone down 50-60% in an opener if they're a med/light armor class and don't use their cc break imbalanced? Every class has the cooldowns at their disposable to come back from such a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tindstar Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 stealth class with heal and enough stuns to do more than neccesary dmg to win 1v1. Look, not saying its overpowered, just that the class can win vs. every class if on even terms and they start out stealth. I'd like to say its skill, but as they have a nice 8 second flashbang JUST INCASE you gain advantage, i can't. We dont win every 1 on 1 on even terms, not even close - but as lvl 50 with pvp gear, we do dispose of lower lvl players fast. A lvl 50 pvp gear assassin will shred alot more ppl on even terms in 1 on 1 than a lvl 50 pvp gear operative - but I guess you would have had to be there, instead of these boards to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YpaWinz Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 How is taking someone down 50-60% in an opener if they're a med/light armor class and don't use their cc break imbalanced? Every class has the cooldowns at their disposable to come back from such a situation. ^This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifewrench Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) How is taking someone down 50-60% in an opener if they're a med/light armor class and don't use their cc break imbalanced? Every class has the cooldowns at their disposable to come back from such a situation. Because if someone does use their CC breaker, all the op/scoundrel has to do is hit with a mezz and finish the job. And then you're really screwed. I haven't been whitebarred by an opening stun. Edited January 3, 2012 by Knifewrench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YpaWinz Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Because if someone does use their CC breaker, all the op/scoundrel has to do is hit with a mezz and finish the job. And then you're really screwed. What's a resolve bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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