Recent actions against some customer accounts

[Darth_Nikon]

INTRODUCTION

 

For the Win is my second young adult novel, and, like my 2008 book Little Brother, it is meant to do more than tell a story. For the Win is a book about economics (a subject that suddenly got a lot more relevant about halfway through the writing of this book, when the world's economy slid unceremoniously into the toilet and got stuck there), justice, politics, games and labor. For the Win connects the dots between the way we shop, the way we organize, and the way we play, and why some people are rich, some are poor, and how we seemed to get stuck there.

 

I hope that readers of this book will be inspired to dig deeper into the subjects of "behavioral economics" (and related subjects like "neuroeconomics") and to start asking hard questions about how we end up with the stuff we own, and what it costs our human brothers and sisters to make those goods, and why we think we need them.

 

But it's a poor politics that can only express itself by choosing to buy or not buy something. Sometimes (often!), you need to organize to make a difference.

 

This is the golden age of organizing. If there's one thing the Internet's changed forever, it's the relative difficulty and cost of getting a bunch of people in the same place, working for the same goal. That's not always good (thugs, bullies, racists and loonies never had it so good), but it is fundamentally game-changing.

 

It's hard to remember just how difficult this organizing stuff used to be: how hard it was to do something as trivial as getting ten friends to agree on dinner and a movie, let alone getting millions of people together to raise money for a political candidate, get the vote out, protest corruption, or save an endangered and beloved institution.

 

The net doesn't solve the problem of injustice, but it solves the first hard problem of righting wrongs: getting everyone together and keeping them together. You still have to do the even harder work of risking life, limb, personal fortune, reputation,

 

Every wonderful thing in our world has fight in its history. Our rights, our good fortune, our happiness and all that is sweet was paid for, once upon a time, by principled people who risked everything to change the world for the better. Those risks are not diminished one iota by the net. But the rewards are every bit as sweet.

 

For The Win, a book by Cory Doctorow you can read for free, all about organizing the MMO workers of the world. Enjoy.

[Master-Nala]

why allow lower levels on Ilum then?

 

there is no intended difficulty since there are no mobs in the area. if a level 50 went into the area they would face the same difficulty that the level 16 would have faced.

 

They don't have to mechanically prohibit every unintended activity. It's impossible and casts too wide a net. Exploiters try to use the excuse, "but the game let me do it" all the time. It's a poor excuse. If you're level 10 running around a planet for level caps, looting containers with gear well above your level and credits far in excess of what you need, then you know you're doing unintended activity.

[graymule]

I strongly disagree with the actions taken against non - goldsellers but I agree that goldsellers should be removed forever from the game.

 

Before I voice my reasoning, please understand that I have a (non formal) background in game theory, ethics and political science, so this comes from an educated position.

 

So here is my reasoning:

 

1. A rule agains "exploiting" is wrong, because it can't be stated clearly enough what constitutes and exploit and what not... the player may simply find himself in a position of "oh, crates... I found this and this is really good, so maybe the high amount of credits are the reward of me being such a clever person... I LOVE THE DEVELOPERS OF THIS GAME!!"

 

(Yes, I am serious here.)

 

So - "exploits will lead to sanctions" is a rubber - paragraph.

 

This leads to:

 

2. Trust issues

 

Yes, I openly admit that I have trust issues now with BW. Will I get banned or suspended for sending my two companions out all the time for archeology and treasure hunting while I do the Hutta ball game?

 

Yes? No? Is this an exploit? Seriously?

 

Think about it:

 

When one stands on Illum farming crates with a low level character... what is the actual difference? Both activities are allowed by the game code, most probably also by the game data files (such rules are often encoded as game assets)?

 

Can I be 100% sure that BW wants me to send out my companions farming treasures and archeology stuff while I play ball games to entertain the Hutta guys?

 

---

 

Conclusio:

 

There is a rule, it goes: "nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali" (Paul Feuerbach), which means:

 

"No crime, no punishment when there is no law against it already in existence."

 

There was no law against "going to Illum as a low level character farming crates".

 

Very well made points. However, one caveat is plausiblity. For instance, is it plausible that a chest should spawn every 5 seconds (I'm conjecturing here)? Is it plausible that this chest would contain 500k credits? No? Might there be some bug or unintended game mechanic here? Yes? Would it possibly go against the EULA or TOC?

 

You see? It's about the same thing as my ATM example earlier, or for that matter, buying a new IPhone online for 1$. Something is obviously fishy, too good to be true and therefore most likely not legit. Ergo - I should refrain from doing it.

 

So, if I were to find a chest that would give med 500k credits, what would I do? Why report it immediately of course, because it's obvious that it wasn't intended to contain that amount.

 

And this is the springing point. You have to use your common sense about these things.

 

Now, if a chest were to give me 10000 credits instead of the normal 9500 (just examples mind) - would I report it? No, because that falls well within the limits of what is plausible.

 

If the tempbans were more in line with this second example, then I agree that they were way too harsh and arbitrary and confusing. I however, do not think that was the case, or we would see many more people complaining. In this whole thread, how many have actually said that they had been warned? Just one. What I deduce from that is that the majority of the warnings and tempbans were quite justified and that the people being warned or tempbanned should have realized that their gain was a result of (intended or otherwise) gameplay exploits.

[xngxng]

Play the game as its intended and you'll have no problems. This is not a sandbox. If all you're doing is running around Ilum at low level trying to get containers, then you aren't playing the game. You're trying to distort the intended difficulty, for yourself or others.

 

Glad they took the actions they did.

 

So, what you really mean is that they should ban/suspend people killing too high level mobs too? Or is it just some higher level content that are offlimits for play? Who can you ask if its ok to loot or not?

[graymule]

So, what you really mean is that they should ban/suspend people killing too high level mobs too? Or is it just some higher level content that are offlimits for play? Who can you ask if its ok to loot or not?

 

Absolutely. If I saw some lvl 10 character go around killing level 35 elites I would report it. That would be an impossible feat and quite clearly an abuse of intended game mechanics.

 

Again, use your common sense and think a little. What is plausible and what is very clearly not?

 

This actually happened in WoW. I'm sure many of you've heard the story. Some guy found a developer item in his mail that let him one-shot everything. Really everything, even end-game raid bosses. Did he report it? No, though clearly he had gotten the item by mistake. Eventually Blizzard found out and he got stripped of all the loot he had gotten by using this exploit.

 

So. Plausiblity. Is that really so hard to grasp?

Edited January 3, 2012 by graymule

[monegames]

They don't have to mechanically prohibit every unintended activity. It's impossible and casts too wide a net. Exploiters try to use the excuse, "but the game let me do it" all the time. It's a poor excuse. If you're level 10 running around a planet for level caps, looting containers with gear well above your level and credits far in excess of what you need, then you know you're doing unintended activity.

 

and that unintended action could very well have been taken care of it they would have put the restrictions in place for that planet. since there is nothing for a lower level to do on that planet other than running around looting containers with gear well above their level and credits in excess of what they need.

[Darth_Nikon]

(accidental back-button repost) Edited January 3, 2012 by Darth_Nikon

[xngxng]

Absolutely. If I saw some lvl 10 character go around killing level 35 elites I would report it. That would be an impossible feat and quite clearly an abuse of intended game mechanics.

 

If gear are given by the game enough to kill 35 elites as a lvl 10, how would one know it wouldnt be allowed to use that gear? Noone is talking real exploits here, like third-party software hacks or the like, just containers lying around in the game waiting to be looted.

 

Edit: At least you should be given a warning that you're not allowed to loot that container or you get banned.

Edited January 3, 2012 by xngxng

[rhirne]

They have stated this many times.....

 

If you want to go to Illium before lvl 40, you are perfectly welcome to. If you can get to a chest on Illium with a character under lvl 40 and loot it, you can. If you want to stand there all day and wait for re-spawns to re-loot the chest, you can. That's not the problem. To them this is considered "normal" gameplay.

 

The problem is there were a small portion of players who were "exploiting the chests." Not looting them - exploiting them.

 

Example: It is perfectly ok for me to use Archeology and scan the various rocks / tablets and increase my skill and collect stuff for crafting. If I discovered "hey, I click on the rock 15 times before it's scan is complete, I get 15x the reward and its always the higher level crystals" that is exploiting Archeology - that's not how the system is suppose to work.

 

Example: I go to a rock, scan it, wait for it to respan, scan it again, wait, scan it again. That's not exploiting the system. That is normal gameplay.

[Lovesong]

@graymule

 

The thing is:

 

Being able to farm materials for manufacturing things while having insane fun playing ball games sounds to good to be true for me...

 

Does that help?

[graymule]

They have stated this many times.....

 

If you want to go to Illium before lvl 40, you are perfectly welcome to. If you can get to a chest on Illium with a character under lvl 40 and loot it, you can. If you want to stand there all day and wait for re-spawns to re-loot the chest, you can. That's not the problem. To them this is considered "normal" gameplay.

 

The problem is there were a small portion of players who were "exploiting the chests." Not looting them - exploiting them.

 

Example: It is perfectly ok for me to use Archeology and scan the various rocks / tablets and increase my skill and collect stuff for crafting. If I discovered "hey, I click on the rock 15 times before it's scan is complete, I get 15x the reward and its always the higher level crystals" that is exploiting Archeology - that's not how the system is suppose to work.

 

Example: I go to a rock, scan it, wait for it to respan, scan it again, wait, scan it again. That's not exploiting the system. That is normal gameplay.

 

Well put. Thanks. I was beginning to think that I was the only one here who understood the concept of plausiblity. Glad to see I'm not alone.

[Yorp]

They have stated this many times.....

 

If you want to go to Illium before lvl 40, you are perfectly welcome to. If you can get to a chest on Illium with a character under lvl 40 and loot it, you can. If you want to stand there all day and wait for re-spawns to re-loot the chest, you can. That's not the problem. To them this is considered "normal" gameplay.

 

And yet, I went there, looted various chests (not the same one repeatedly) for about 6 hours total. In various sessions as farming on empty place is boring. And got warning.

 

This is my problem with whole thing.

[xngxng]

They have stated this many times.....

 

If you want to go to Illium before lvl 40, you are perfectly welcome to. If you can get to a chest on Illium with a character under lvl 40 and loot it, you can. If you want to stand there all day and wait for re-spawns to re-loot the chest, you can. That's not the problem. To them this is considered "normal" gameplay.

 

The problem is there were a small portion of players who were "exploiting the chests." Not looting them - exploiting them.

 

Example: It is perfectly ok for me to use Archeology and scan the various rocks / tablets and increase my skill and collect stuff for crafting. If I discovered "hey, I click on the rock 15 times before it's scan is complete, I get 15x the reward and its always the higher level crystals" that is exploiting Archeology - that's not how the system is suppose to work.

 

Example: I go to a rock, scan it, wait for it to respan, scan it again, wait, scan it again. That's not exploiting the system. That is normal gameplay.

 

Ty, makes sense. Was getting afraid this would be the only game out there where helping your lower-level friends progress would be a breach of EULA. Credits are needed for progressing gearwise, millions of them, whether or not I farm those credits as a lvl 1 (harder) or lvl 50 (easier) should not make a difference.

[graymule]

@graymule

 

The thing is:

 

Being able to farm materials for manufacturing things while having insane fun playing ball games sounds to good to be true for me...

 

Does that help?

 

Please.

 

That is a well-documented and well-marketed feature. Hell, even a selling-point of the game. Can't think of why you would even try to compare that with the situation at hand. We're talking about [what should be obvious] game-breaking exploits here.

[saminaobx]

Bioware you made a mistake, you punish the players instead of hotfixing the fking spawn times on the containers?

 

So if i farm grmstones all day then put 100s on the market am i runing the economy?

 

Will i be banned 2?

 

Get your sht together

Edited January 3, 2012 by saminaobx

[graymule]

And yet, I went there, looted various chests (not the same one repeatedly) for about 6 hours total. In various sessions as farming on empty place is boring. And got warning.

 

This is my problem with whole thing.

 

Yes, I can surely understand that there were a few false positives getting caught up in this, which is sad. But that shouldn't confuse the issue that a probable reason for you getting the chests in the first place was due to an exploit - whether you instigated it or just unwittingly used it.

 

Googling this earlier I found several message boards where this exploit was discussed openly and where the participants were quite clearly aware that this was an exploit.

[xngxng]

Bioware, you made a mistake, you punish the players instead of hotfixing the fking spawn times on the containers?

 

So if i farm grmstones all day then put 100s on the market am i runing the economy?

 

Will i be banned 2?

 

Get your sht together

 

Bioware obviously needs to hire people to be ingame so we can ask them for every loot if its ok or if we have looted to many of the same in the same day/week/pay-period.

[rhirne]

And yet, I went there, looted various chests (not the same one repeatedly) for about 6 hours total. In various sessions as farming on empty place is boring. And got warning.

 

This is my problem with whole thing.

 

However you were farming them, may have been similar to how people who were exploiting them were doing. Or you could've gotten a warning by mistake. I know a couple of MMO's I have played, there have been GS's who would take my name (and others), and then change the last 2 character positions or just enough so it still looks like your name, but is slightly different. Even had a GM contact me and some friends about GS spamming and im like IT'S NOT ME... he was like "ohh your right.. sorry about that"

 

For you, it could've just been a mix-up, a mistake email sent, or you really were exploiting them (not accusing, just saying... this is the internet).

[NinaV]

I guess you missed the systematically and repeatedly. In other words camping them 24/7 so #1 you can get upset the economy and #2 noone else can loot said container.

 

Something that CAN'T be against the TOS, nor Eula. It is Bioware that put the options to do the things that you mentions into the game. It is put there to be of use. That some put more effort into farming it than others can't be wrong. Unhealthy? Yes, very much so, but Bioware got all the tools in the world to counter such things without the absurdities that StephenReid points at as reasoning.

 

Exactly what the mod is saying here. He is saying you can go there and if you can somehow make it to the container feel free to loot it. Just dont abuse that by camping your lowbie there and looting it 24/7 so noone else can. To me its common sense.

 

The question might be that it is done through using "bugs" (something I doubt), or something done through exploits (something that seems reasonable)...depending on the developers judgement of their own mechanics being seen as poor, sloppy and not "working as intended™".

 

I can imagine that it is regrettable for all game companies when people show them the weakness in their design, but punishing the players for it, no, that won't work.

 

Bioware made the mechanics; Bioware should have considered the consequences. This happens in ALL games with an economy where players compete over resources, demands and offers.

 

Bioware, as I mentioned already, got plenty of ways to counter such things, level caps, daily limits, but definitely my favourite solution over time would be to create comparable and accessible content. SWTOR already got some overlap, like PvP, solo-questing, dungeons, raids and trade-skills.

 

The problem is, with what Leggomy & StephenReid writes, that it is extremely hard for a player to be able to relate to what actually has been done wrong. is 23 hours a day acceptable? 22 hours? 10? 5?

 

How many hours a day do you play? Does that mean in average will the exact favourable spot (that Bioware put there) most likely be crowded no matter "camping restrictions" (how stupid concept when you consider why it is called camping and that the design is put there on purpose).

 

But, since I'm not paid to write, play, point at, or otherwise solve in-game challenges, or worse, philosophically and intellectually really poor arguments, will I end my tirade now.

 

However, Leggomy & StephenReid, if you're paid to do what you do, do I suggest; do better.

[graymule]

Bioware obviously needs to hire people to be ingame so we can ask them for every loot if its ok or if we have looted to many of the same in the same day/week/pay-period.

 

Seriously.

 

Plausiblity. Common Sense. Why is this so hard to grasp? I've played several different MMO's during a LOT of years and have never got so much as a warning for anything I've done.

 

Bioware will NOT ban you for playing normally - including looting chests and farming nodes. But if you find yourself unexpectedly being able to loot the same chest 10 times (as an example) and not find that suspicious I would seriously begin to doubt your mental faculties.

 

Plausiblity. Common Sense.

 

Once again folks: Plausibility. Common Sense.

[Yorp]

Yes, I can surely understand that there were a few false positives getting caught up in this, which is sad. But that shouldn't confuse the issue that a probable reason for you getting the chests in the first place was due to an exploit - whether you instigated it or just unwittingly used it.

 

Googling this earlier I found several message boards where this exploit was discussed openly and where the participants were quite clearly aware that this was an exploit.

 

Funny thing is, that when I was farming there, whole Ilum was empty place. I was there as only Imperial. And I did not see any Republic player on any place tied with PvP objectives. So nodes were respawning normaly.

 

I did however "won" Ilum for Empire once or twice in those 6 hours of total farming. Great cutscene followed. If this is reason of warning, I am more angrier than before. Because I was in the game 16hours per day and did not had oportunity for browsing "several message boards" talking about exploits.

[Doreian]

(ﾉ °益°)ﾉ 彡 ┻━┻

[TommiHelm]

So what is and isn't allowed exactly? Can I not farm credits for my own use (and to help friends in the game out) either? Or is it just selling said credits for real money, or exploiting game mechanics to gain them that's not allowed? I would hope it's the latter.

 

If "working the market" and trying to get rich (for what ever own personal enjoyment) is not allowed in this game it's going to lose a lot of customers, cause there's a huge community of people enjoying this part of these games (MMOs). Being the first to reach a certain level of riches is in itself a game for many players.

[Logiick]

So make the containers level acessible... Example: Level 40 + Can open them.

 

/eyeroll.

 

But that would be logical.

 

 

Also, I find it hilarious that they're all; "WE'RE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHO WE BAN."

Seriously? Just got look at the reasons some people have been getting banned.

And then the fact that you can't login and cancel afterwards and therefore have to go through the bank to do it is just adding insult to injury.

[DarthSakh]

Bugs in MMO exist, live with that. Who lead an MMO need to fix bugs ASAP. Players that intentionally and repeatedly abuse bugs to gain an obvious advantage (and feel themselves above the common rules accepted before playing) need to be sanctioned. Not hard concepts.

EDIT : (Sorry for my bad Eng, hope it is readable)

Edited January 3, 2012 by DarthSakh