"Unconvential" PvE Tank Spec. Yay or Nay?

[kwmarien]

Hey, I'm toying around with the tank specs and I sorta like/see the potential in this one:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301G0Grdor0MZrkrrob.1

 

Keep in mind that this spec is purely for PvE Tanking.

 

The reasons why I like this spec:

 

- You only "waste" 1 Skill Point ( AP Tree => Puncture )

- You get more aggro, interrupt, CC, pulls due to the lower CD (& skills):

 

* Aggro: Lower CD on Flamethrower / Grapple and added dmg from Retr Blade

* Interrupts: Lower CD on Quell & Electro Dart

* Pulls: Lower CD on Grapple

 

The only downside I see in this build is the loss of 10% Shield chance, but those 5! points you need and a wasted point to get to that tier, made me look for other specs that could also prove viable.

 

So the only downside I see in this build compared to the "standard" Tank spec is the loss of 10% shield chance.

 

But tbh, what I have noticed so far from low lvl Tanking and comparing PT to other Tanks is that I could use the increased Aggro Control/Interrupts (and Pulls) rather than more dmg reduction.

 

We have tons of armor, absorption and shield chance and a self-shield + an absorption shield if we have a sorc in our team + defensive relics at late-game = Seems like enough survivability to me.

 

But ok, I'm not here to sell this build to you guys, I'm here to ask for opinions/input/constructive criticism.

 

What do you think about this build, are there many flaws, is the 10% shield chance increase for 6 skill points worth it over this build? Etc. etc.

 

 

Fire away, I'm all ears/eyes. ^^

[Oceanemotion]

I really dont think this build will work, why on earth do you want to say no to 10% extra shield chance.. That is ALOT of survivability you lose there, and I dont think it will ever be worth losing for the stuff you have gained in Adv proto

 

Lower CD on Grapple yes, but you lose your charge, which also has alot of uses..

 

You take retractable blade, why? you already have an ability that deals dmg AND vents heat at the top of your tree in shield tech?

 

You might be able to interupt more, but remember its not only you, you are an entire group of 4, so again I cant see the point in losing 10% shield chance and a tank ability at the top of the tree, to get more interupts since your group can handle all spells that needs to be interupted perfeclty, you dont need to be able to interupt more than you can already..

 

And no, I dont think retractable blade will give you more agro, and neither will the reduced CD on flame thrower, remember you lose heat blast, which does more dmg than retracable blades, and it vents heat at the same time, so you have more heat to do more agro managing abilities.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Oceanemotion

[kwmarien]

I see your points, but imo we already have tons of survivability and with the Venting through Shielding-skill ( which can only occur every few seconds ), we already have ways of further improving our heat-management and with proper heat management we can keep managing aggro.

 

Besides, the top tier skill in the Shield Tech-tree is (imo) not that good, it does less dmg than Retr Blade and has a low heat-reduction bonus. Which isn't really needed with the Shield Vents-skill and proper heat management.

 

+ I also have heat management through the (occasional) free Rocket Punch which can be spammed rather often due to the No-CD for Rocket Punch in the Shield Tech-tree.

 

So I have better relatively the same/better heat management than the standard Tank spec, better single target Aggro, more interrupts, more pulls, more/better aoe aggro control through lower CD of Flame Thrower.

 

I still find that the only flaw in this spec is the lower Shield Chance, which can already be improved through relics and our survivability is already high enough to not warrant spending 6 points to get that 10% more shield chance.

 

But I'm open for more input/advice ofc, I could very easily be wrong about all this ofc. (I'm a newb afterall ^^ )

 

So please, keep posting input guys.

[chainsawsamurai]

I really dont think this build will work, why on earth do you want to say no to 10% extra shield chance.. That is ALOT of survivability you lose there, and I dont think it will ever be worth losing for the stuff you have gained in Adv proto

 

It isn't a lot of survivability and the current top end content doesn't even require it. In the future tiers of content this argument might stand. Currently, no. Unless you're way undergeared anyway.

 

As to what is gained in Adv Proto... I'll get to that in a moment.

 

Lower CD on Grapple yes, but you lose your charge, which also has alot of uses..

 

Lower CD on Crapple you say? 10 seconds less on Crapple? Did someone say Crapple?

 

Grapple is a mob positioning ability, not a gap closer. Especially in PvE. 45 seconds is enough for 1 each pull. 35 seconds is enough for, wait for it, ONE each pull. Even if the pull lasted long enough for you to get a second one off, grats, it didn't help you with the initial wrangling and you're just showing off by using it.

 

The shorter cooldown on Flamethrower is nice though, and certainly worth mentioning over the lower cooldown on grapple. Still nothing to write home about, but I guess it is nice for the Tanking class that already has absurd AoE to have more right?

 

But losing your charge I really can't abide by. Jet Charge is such a great ability. Utility and mobility aside for just one moment, Jet Charge is fun. If we all take a moment to be really honest with ourselves, Jet Charge is the ability we rolled a Powertech for; to jetpack over and punch someone in the faceholes. The sound, the animation, the little fire and smoke trail, the ability is freaking perfect.

 

Taking that into consideration, now lets add mobility and utility back in to the equation. You're insane to go deeper than T2 in ST and not go deeper for Jet Charge.

 

You take retractable blade, why? you already have an ability that deals dmg AND vents heat at the top of your tree in shield tech?

 

Because Heat Blast is stupid. Really really stupid. It works out to ~.5 heat a second on an ability that hits about as hard as your Rapid Shots anyway. GG. This ability needs some love, in the meantime it is nothing to get worked up about a spec not having it.

 

I don't like Retractable Blade. I really love the animation, but the ability is kind of meh. Having said that, it is really efficient threat/heat/GCD. Much much much better than anything else ST has if you let it run its entire course.

 

You can expect Ret Blade, over its full duration, to do as much damage as a crit Rocket Punch. If any of the ticks crit, then it is more damage. Damage is threat, so I think you see where I'm going here. For 16 heat.

 

Ret Blade alone lets you entirely forget about Heat Blast. Why do you have Heat Blast? To do more attacks. Why do more attacks? To do more threat. Well now you've got Ret Blade which is so efficient you can do as much threat as a ST who has Heat Blast with less button presses and work.

 

You might be able to interupt more, but remember its not only you, you are an entire group of 4, so again I cant see the point in losing 10% shield chance and a tank ability at the top of the tree, to get more interupts since your group can handle all spells that needs to be interupted perfeclty, you dont need to be able to interupt more than you can already..

 

This I agree with. Hitman is nothing to write home about unless the guy runs exclusively in pick up groups he finds in Imperial Fleet where he gets unreliable groupmates and has no one to interrupt but himself.

 

If this is the case, i'd still tell him to find a guild over picking up Hitman.

 

And no, I dont think retractable blade will give you more agro, and neither will the reduced CD on flame thrower, remember you lose heat blast, which does more dmg than retracable blades, and it vents heat at the same time, so you have more heat to do more agro managing abilities.

 

Reduced CD on flamethrower is awesome threat... if you're level 20. After that, yeah it's kind of a wash.

 

Retractable Blade certainly does more damage and threat than Heat Blast. Did you even read the tooltips or are you playing the "The Devs put it at the top of the tanking tree! OF COURSE its more damage and threat!" game. Cause thats a stupid game. Go play Yahtzee if you can't be bothered to read tooltips. It only involves small numbers.

 

Again, Heat Blast sucks. Its damage sucks. It has no other synergy within the tree, it just vents heat. A very small amount of heat over a protracted fight.

 

It also over complicates your rotation. See, because Heat Blast sucks so very very very hard, in order to maximize your heat usage you are doing the following.

 

-Stay below 40 heat (as usual)

 

-Stay above 0 heat (as usual)

 

-Make sure your next ability will not take you over 40 heat (as usual)

 

here is where things get exciting, and by exciting I mean sucktastic.

 

-If heat blast is coming off cooldown:

***Ensure you are OVER 13 Heat. Preferably 18.

***If last ability before Heat Blast will bring you over 40 heat

******If consequent heat > 40 && < 45ish && likely to only have one tick between

**********use ability and then Heat Blast

******if consequent heat > 46

**********Rapid Shot then Heat Blast then Ability

 

 

Problem is, to maximize threat you need to put Rocket Punch and Rail Shot on cooldown as SOON as possible. To minimize how ****** Heat Blast is you need to get it on cooldown as SOON as possible. These are conflicting interests which further muddies your rotation.

 

So you are fighting both ends of your heat bar, rather than just one, fighting your attack rotation priorities rather than letting them run smoothly, and having to pay way too much attention to your bars and cooldowns rather than the fight itself.

 

For what? So you can have another 60-90 heat for threat you don't need over the course of a 3 minute fight? Instead of more threat baseline by having better attacks and not using Heat Blast? So you can have lousy threat because your rotation is fighting itself more than necessary? No. Bad move. Heat Blast sucks.

 

Want to know the secret of BH tanking? Run up to the boss. Blow EVERYTHING you have. All of it. Totally piss away heat on Flame Bursts after your Rocket Punch and Rail Shot. Lay in to that boss like a level 11 noob. Get up to ~80 heat, then blow TSO and do that Rocket Punch that just refreshed. Then totally red line your heat. Now use vent heat and Rapid Shots a couple of times to get back below 40. Congratulations, you're now so far ahead on threat that you can go on autopilot and no one will catch you. Did you see Heat Blast involved in any of that? Neither did I.

 

Heat blast is only handy in trash pulls. It lets you be sloppy with Flame Spins and other high cost AoE and then drop yourself below the gate after your boo-boo. For the trash, which doesn't matter, heat blast is definitely worth the point. Hear that? For the part of the Operation that doesn't matter, Heat Blast is just the bee's knees.

 

Now that I'm done with that... There are LOTS of very good reasons to not go all the way 31 points deep in Shieldtech.

 

This spec isn't it. Hum a few bars while I take a look at it and I might get back to you.

Edited January 2, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[MorningMusume]

You can expect Ret Blade, over its full duration, to do as much damage as a crit Rocket Punch. If any of the ticks crit, then it is more damage. Damage is threat, so I think you see where I'm going here. For 16 heat.

 

Never.

 

Rocket Punch has higher base damage, 30% extra crit, 30% extra damage on crits, and 100% chance to trigger the cylinder (~500 damage + dot).

 

Ret Blade has lower damage, base crit and surge, and 0% chance to trigger the cylinder.

Edited January 2, 2012 by MorningMusume

[kwmarien]

Thank you kindly for all the input so far, I'd love to see the build that is better for tanking without using the 10% shield chance increase, than this one I came up with I mean.

 

As said, I'm nowhere near an expert and so far the information provided has been really useful to improve my build and gameplay.

 

Although I sorta disagree on not improving my Quell CD, I find I should be the one providing most interrupts since I'm the one tanking and it's part of being a tank (imo).

 

Why let a healer cc, losing time and energy that could be better used keeping the team up and runnin?

 

Just my opinion on the matter, I don't see how those 2 points in Quell CDR could be considered bad tbh. ^^

 

Eagerly awaiting more great input and builds, thanks in advane to everyone participating in this thread. ^^

[chainsawsamurai]

OK, I think I see where you're going here a bit better.

 

You're planning on having better heat efficiency through Flame Barrage. I have a similar spec that gives better heat efficiency through Prototype Particle Accelerator in the Pyro tree.

 

I am not saying it will not work, but I'm going to throw out some thinking on Flame Barrage and Flame Shield here so you can come to your own conclusions.

 

For starters, Flame Barrage doesn't really come into its own until Immolate. Unlike Prototype Particle Accelerator it doesn't reset the cooldown on the ability it makes free, it just makes it free.

 

So this spec is betting on, occasionally, having a free Rocket Punch as a part of its rotation. You are certainly not going to get all of them. I suppose it not resetting Rocket Punch is sort of a moot point since they'll be coming at around every 5-6 seconds anyway.

 

I see where you're going, I'm pessimistic, but I can see how it would work out and in the best of times (lots of procs) it will certainly be more heat efficient than Heat Blast (which, again, sucks). 30% isnt a heck of a lot to rely on, but if that means that even 30% of your Rocket Punches are free then it will be more efficient than Heat Blast, saving around 2 heat a second (based on a very rough estimate of an average of 6 second rocket punches and 30% of them being free. Real rough, this is napkin math at its sloppiest). Pretty much blows Heat Blast out of the water there, by a lot.

 

Again, I'm pessimistic, but I think it is worth a shot. I nominate you as Guinea Pig.

 

 

And now for my favorite segment:

 

Why your build sucks and makes me hate your face, by Chainsaw Sam.

 

Puncture is awesome. Whether you like it or not Rail Shot is a mainstay. Not as much for you as for an ST/Pyro build, but it is still a hard hitting ability. Making hard hitting abilities hit harder is just super.

 

Electro Dart sucks. You have a metric crap ton of AoE as a Powertech. And a reliable taunt. And a grapple. And a short cooldown AoE taunt. What on earth do you need Electro Dart for? You can't even stun anything constructive with it. Move those points in to Puncture. You'll thank me later.

 

The lack of Jet Charge is inexcusable. If I knew you in person I would go to your house with a white board and a 12 pack of beer, not to share. I would then proceed to drink all the beer, put the whiteboard up on one of your walls, and begin drawing crude stick figure drawings of guys in rocket packs flying around being 100% more awesome than you because your rocket pack doesn't do anything but improve your jump shot. I would be making a lot of ZOOM noises while I did this. Afterwards I would probably puke on your lawn.

 

I know you really really really want to get that extra foot of jump height to punch The Sandman in his mouth-hole, but guess what Little Mac; Jet Charge is rad.

 

You think your group wants to wait for you to mosey on up to the next pack of badguys so they can wait a couple seconds more for you to establish threat so they can waidsfljfasdfjew

 

Sorry, I fell asleep on my keyboard just thinking about it.

 

Point is, don't hold crap up. Jet Charge in like a real man and start punching dudes in the face.

 

Now where's the point going to come from? Well there's a couple of good places to take it from.

 

First, Jet Charge is absolutely worth 3% aim.

 

Second, Jet Charge is absolutely worth dropping Supercharged Ion Gas. Ion Cylinder's in game tooltip is very wrong. You're only gettign 40% of what it says it is giving you, which equates to practically nothing. Let me draw out some math for you.

 

25% of nothing = nothing.

+3 more seconds of a portion of nothing = nothing.

 

keep your aim. get rid of this stinker. I don't even notice it's gone anymore tbh, point better spent elsewhere until they make Ion charge do the damage it says it does (which i dont think they will, so I dont think that'll be worth the point ever. neat huh?)

 

 

Everything else looks OK. In fact the spec might have an awful lot of potential. It'll either fly high or fall on its face. However I'm kind of enjoying my rant and I'd honestly like to call you a girl's name so:

 

Good luck with your spec Susan. Let us know how it works out for you in the end.

 

 

XOXOX <--- (Hugs & Kisses)

Chainsaw Sam

[chainsawsamurai]

Never.

 

Rocket Punch has higher base damage, 30% extra crit, 30% extra damage on crits, and 100% chance to trigger the cylinder (~500 damage + dot).

 

Ret Blade has lower damage, base crit and surge, and 0% chance to trigger the cylinder.

 

Wrong.

 

Ion cylinder doesn't give nearly that damage. The Tooltip is wrong. You really should've noticed this by now because the difference is significant. You're getting less than half what it says you get.

 

Ion AND Rocket Punch are both also mitigated by armor due to their respective damage types (energy and kinetic respectively). Over half of Ret Blade ignores armor entirely.

 

The base damage is also barely higher, if you total up the initial gut and the bleed it works out to a very small difference. Again, over half of Ret Blade goes unmitigated.

 

But you're right I must have exaggerated a little, I didn't actually have the game available at the time as I'm on this lame netbook.

 

We're not drawing a comparison about one or the other though, that'd be silly. They aren't in competition. what is in competition is Ret Blade and Heat Blast. Ret Blade is absolutely better threat/second than heat blast and his build has it's Heat management handled elsewhere.

[kwmarien]

Thank you for your (weirdly constructed) input, again.

 

But for me Jet Charge is just aesthetics and I don't think it's really all that useful in PvE Tanking, a 1-target leap instead of using grapple or death from above to start with? I don't see why I should prefer Jet Charge over using those 2 in their respective best used situations.

 

Now onto Rail Shot, I think a reactive shot that does slightly more damage than rocket punch (without talents put into it) isn't all that great. Not to mention with the talents into Rocket Punch, you do alot more damage with it than normal.

 

+ With the talents in Shield Tree (Shielding an attack has 50% chance to finish the CD on Rocket Punch) aswell as having Flame Burst have a 30% chance to proc a free Rocket Punch => I don't see why I would use Rail Shot over Rocket Punch with points invested in it.

 

Now onto Electro Dart, less CD on Electro Dart = More Interrupts, I personally prefer that over the situational Rail Shot.

 

I feel that with the build I presented I should be able to be a bigger asset to the team rather than just being a punchingbag.

 

That's just my opinion ofc and I'm too low lvl to be certain that my build is good, but until now I have yet to be convinced beyond doubt that this build isn't a viable option to build my PT Tank as.

 

 

MORE INPUT PLEASE!

[chainsawsamurai]

Thank you for your (weirdly constructed) input, again.

 

But for me Jet Charge is just aesthetics and I don't think it's really all that useful in PvE Tanking, a 1-target leap instead of using grapple or death from above to start with? I don't see why I should prefer Jet Charge over using those 2 in their respective best used situations.

 

Now onto Rail Shot, I think a reactive shot that does slightly more damage than rocket punch (without talents put into it) isn't all that great. Not to mention with the talents into Rocket Punch, you do alot more damage with it than normal.

 

+ With the talents in Shield Tree (Shielding an attack has 50% chance to finish the CD on Rocket Punch) aswell as having Flame Burst have a 30% chance to proc a free Rocket Punch => I don't see why I would use Rail Shot over Rocket Punch with points invested in it.

 

Now onto Electro Dart, less CD on Electro Dart = More Interrupts, I personally prefer that over the situational Rail Shot.

 

I feel that with the build I presented I should be able to be a bigger asset to the team rather than just being a punchingbag.

 

That's just my opinion ofc and I'm too low lvl to be certain that my build is good, but until now I have yet to be convinced beyond doubt that this build isn't a viable option to build my PT Tank as.

 

 

MORE INPUT PLEASE!

 

Jet Charge is far more than just aesthetics, and Grapple is absolutely no substitute for YOU being where YOU need to be when YOU need to be there.

 

Pack (that's more than one) of mobs spawn off in the corner and start charging the healers? You can grapple 1, or you can Jet Charge and Flame Spin to get them all. I'm going with the Jet Charge option.

 

Also a lot of packs have ranged dudes all spread way the hell out. It is irritating as hell. So you do both. Death From Above the cluster of dudes on the left from a distance then Jet Charge the couple on the right and put some hurt on them.

 

Also, round about Mandalorian raiders this game starts to LOVE to screw with tanks. You'll get your initial threat all ready to go and your rotation stabilized and suddenly here come 4 more dudes spread out all over. Know what is awesome for that?

 

Wait for it.

 

Jet Charge.

 

What is messed up is, I could go on. I really really really could go on.

 

The most important facet of Jet Charge though is, again, group consideration. Unlike a lot of DPS, I tank. I tank a lot. I know what it is like to be a tank, and I give tanks a LOT more basic respect for the typical common courtesies of the tank/dps relationship in a Flashpoint.

 

I guess I'm saying I'm a cool dude like that.

 

I will always give a tank who is trying to keep moving things along his time to get his aggro before I unload like a wild untamed beast. I dont want to make his job harder than it should be, and he is doing his part.

 

Now if a tank is not doing his part to keep things moving, well I've got a schedule to keep man, I've got quotas. If he wont speed it up by having a sense of urgency then I'll speed it up by turning my DPS up to 11.

 

Everybody gets one. One. The second time I catch you walking your lazy *** up to the second pack of mobs cause you couldn't be bothered to put one measly point in jet charge, we're going to have a problem. I'm going to wear out your taunt key buddy.

 

Now, if that is my outlook as a fellow tank. What do you think the dps-kiddies are going to act like?

 

It is absolutely worth the point. I even pointed out two whole points that are absolute crap compared to your absolutely NOT just aesthetic Jet Charge.

 

 

 

As for Hit man? You really dont have anything else to put points in to, so I'll let it slide. However, in this game it isn't the "Tanks job" to interrupt. Cause you can't. It only locks out ONE spell, not a whole tree and only for 4 seconds. Also everyone who has an interrupt has it on the same cooldown and not on global cooldown and with no cost. There is absolutely no excuse why everyone can't interrupt (except Mercs, they'll get an Interrupt when they finish their dinner like good little boys).

 

As for electro dart, again, you can't stun anything important. Want to stun crappy trash mobs your DPS will rip apart in 3 seconds with or without your tanking? Go for it I guess. On that boss fight, again the part of tanking that actually matters, you can have your 2 worthless points in Electro Dart and I'll enjoy a staple of my rotation providing more threat.

 

You're right though. It isnt completely terrible, it will probably be perfectly viable (ONCE YOU GET JET CHARGE), and you probably should build like that to try it out.

Edited January 2, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Schmack]

Honestly, to me that spec looks quite adapted to PvP. For PvE I wouldn't personally use it because

 

• No Jet Charge
  Even if you open with Death from Above you can still loose some inital aggro due to overzealous triggerhappy DPS. Being able to quickly get close to the mobs to AoE them is very, very handy. Might me just me being paranoid as I assume any DPS I have not grouped with before or are in my guild are overzealous mouthbreathing triggerhappy keyboardturning clickers. So I prepare for the worst.
  
• Loss of 10% shields
  Unless I know me and the group are overgeared for the content I wouldn't skip out on that extra survivability. When we are streamrolling the content then perhaps if I find that I need threat. And only maybe then as it may be easier to have several sets of gear instead of respeccing all the time.
  

 

 

But Heat Blast is underwhelming with proper heat management you can live without it. So if you want Retractable Blade then perhaps go 30/11/0?

[chainsawsamurai]

10% shields really isn't a big deal, I'm pretty sure the only people who say so only do because they haven't tried a build without it. Hell, I've tanked in DPS gear trying to piss off a healer I run with, he didn't even care.

 

By the time you get enough absorb for that talent to be worth 1% mitigation per talent point (still a lame return, but whatever) you ARE overgeared for content. There's even findings out there saying to ignore shield/absorb all together and focus on defense, but that sounds like taking it to an all new extreme that is a little silly.

 

that 10% shield chance certainly isn't worth giving up Flame Barrage which is really the entire point of this build if you break it down.

 

But, I've found the problem

 

That's just my opinion ofc and I'm too low lvl to be certain that my build is good

 

Alright. I'm 50. I don't want to go all super nerd jerkmode on you and pull the "I'm 50, I know better than you" card but-

 

I'm 50, I know better than you.

 

Again, at Mandalorian Raiders and beyond this game LOVES to screw with tanks. They love to put ungrappleable turrets all over the damn place just far enough apart not to get them both in one AoE. The Dev's think it is hilarious to watch people without jet charge run around like a confused little bunny rabbit trying to keep these things off of their healers.

 

Speaking of Grapple, it breaks. Not sure why, probably not the best code, but it breaks.

 

I have had Grapple break in ALL aspects of this game: PvP, PvE, romancing Mako, you name it.

 

Sun rises, fish swim in the ocean, Grapple breaks. Fact of life bro, sorry. It doesn't break nearly as often in PvE as it does in PvP, but it does break more often as a tank. Sometimes you shoot your lasso around them lil' dogies and get stunned or knocked back at the right moment and it never completes the animation, therefore it never yanks. Did I mention that tanks have to deal with a lot of knockbacks and stuns in this game? Knockbacks which make Jet charge awesome? I digress.

 

Grapple still goes on cooldown most of the time when it breaks though, so you're sure to get your mileage out of Advanced Tools.

 

You're throwing an awful lot of eggs in one 35 second basket, with only a 60 second basket to fall back on. A 60 second basket which sucks at hitting moving targets. I'm talking about Death From Above if you missed that.

 

Those baskets need to be able to carry your eggs. Those eggs are your teammates, who have entrusted you, the Mother Hen, with their success in the flash point. Picking up another 15 second basket in this environment is not just a good idea, it's damn near mandatory.

 

That is absolutely worth 3% aim or 25% bonus damage on an ability which is already giving only 40% of the damage listed on its tooltip. That damage is then mitigated by armor. I'm talking about Ion Cylinder.

 

What the hell do you need that extra Aim for? Threat? you're obviously not concerned about threat, you didn't bother to take Puncture.

 

Anyway, again. Core of the build? Tank build utilizing Flame Barrage for Heat management rather than Heat Blast? Probably a good idea. That good idea wont save you from not having Jet Charge when you need it.

[MorningMusume]

[*]Loss of 10% shields

Unless I know me and the group are overgeared for the content I wouldn't skip out on that extra survivability. When we are streamrolling the content then perhaps if I find that I need threat. And only maybe then as it may be easier to have several sets of gear instead of respeccing all the time.

 

For threat anyway, +8% Rocket Punch damage is an easier option than having Retractable Blade. Heat Blast is not the best skill out there, but is like a tad better Rapid Shots with -8 heat every 15 seconds, and helps with the rotation.

 

+10% Shields lets you put many points in non-defensive stats while having the same mitigation if you wanna buff your threat via gear and also helps with the Rocket Punch procs and vent heat procs.

 

There isn't any serious theorycrafting around, but I'll be surprised if that build does more stable threat than a typical 31/7+x/y.

[kwmarien]

I'm sold on at the least testing Jet Charge, but it seems like a good choice to have as a PVE Tank and it'll probably turn out to be a good choice so I'll adapt my build to it, also might make a few other alterations, gimme a min and I'll post the build.

 

* Minute starts *

 

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

* Minute ends *

 

Build v1.2 PvE Tank: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301G0Grd0roMZMsrrob.1

 

The main changes to this build are:

 

* Jet Charge

* Swapping CDR for Electro Dart / Improved Ion Gas Cilinder Proc for a 60% Armor Reduction Rail Shot

 

Tbh, I'm already sold on selling out on the (apparently useless) 2 skills I had chosen instead of the 60% Armor Reduction Rail Shot.

 

AND with this build I don't have to "dump/waste" ANY points!

 

I think I'm definitely going to try out this build and if it turns out to be as viable as the "standard" PvE Tank-spec, I'm sticking with it!

 

Thank you everyone for your participation in improving the build and if feel free to give me more input on this v1.2 Build I'm aiming for.

 

And this is my opinion on Quell: It already had a very low CD for an interrupt, and with the points invested in it I should be able to interrupt a hell of alot even if it's only 1 spell/interrupt, so I'm going to like it most likely and my team should too (hopefully).

 

 

 

Can't wait to try this build out in its full potential (= Lvl 50).

 

Thank you all again, especially ChainsawSamurai for his elaborate posts and help in improving the build. Kudos to you my good man.

 

 

Cheers all. ^^

[chainsawsamurai]

For threat anyway, +8% Rocket Punch damage is an easier option than having Retractable Blade. Heat Blast is not the best skill out there, but is like a tad better Rapid Shots with -8 heat every 15 seconds, and helps with the rotation.

 

8% more damage/threat on one ability is certainly a good talent if you're married to 31 in ST. It doesn't compare to Retractable Blade because Ret Blade isn't Rocket Punch. It can be used while Rocket Punch is on cooldown to provide threat when Rocket Punch can't. Ret Blade is also an additional unmitigated DoT which can tick away while you're not on target for whatever reason.

 

You're also way overestimating Heat Blast. While ION is doing less damage than the tooltip suggests it is still 15% chance of more damage per tick of Rapid Shots. Barely better isn't even scratching the surface here. I've also already pointed out why having Heat Blast doesn't necessarily "help" your rotation.

 

I could go more in depth here, but the ST/Pyro build already provides better Heat Management than Heat Blast. I think this funky ST/Adv Proto build has a good shot at competing with, or providing better management than Heat Blast. All without having to modify your normal rotation. That is a pretty stellar benefit in of itself.

 

+10% Shields lets you put many points in non-defensive stats while having the same mitigation if you wanna buff your threat via gear and also helps with the Rocket Punch procs and vent heat procs.

 

Or you could ditch your 10% shields and focus on shielding more through gear and end up in exactly the same place but with more interesting talents. Or you could gear as normal cause the shielding isn't all that great anyway and content doesn't push the envelope on tank numbers enough to bother yet.

 

There isn't any serious theorycrafting around, but I'll be surprised if that build does more stable threat than a typical 31/7+x/y.

 

There isn't. Unfortunately there really can't be without the proper tools and it's kind of rough. Everything defaults to rumors and hearsay.

 

I feel very confident asserting the following.

 

--Threat and Heat Management seem significantly better on the ST/Pyro build. The mitigation lost is nothing to bother with, I've not even noticed it.

 

--This build gives up the same mitigation talents for a shot at slightly better threat and a shot at better heat management (admittedly 30% chance on Flame Burst isn't nearly as nice as 30% on Flame Burst and 45% on Rocket Punch for the ST/Pyro build).

 

 

I am also going to state, very matter of factly, the following:

 

Blizzard has been making talent trees for 11 years. They have been building MMOs with Talent Trees for 7 years. They are still incapable of creating a talent tree where people are comfortable going all the way down rather than hybridizing, to the point where Blizzard gave up and forced them to.

 

Bioware has never made a game before this one with Talent Trees. They all had simplistic point buy progression systems. They have had a released MMO with Talent Trees in it for 2 weeks. The chances of them making talent trees, beginner's luck, that survive and hold up better than the odd-ball specs people slap together post release is astronomical. Some will hold up better than others, but ours is, at best, a little dull. At worst it is a flagrant waste of points beyond it's basic core.

 

 

 

We're not going to know how things hold up unless we fuss with it. We don't have tools. We don't have proper ratios of mitigation gained through X stat. We don't have proper theorycrafting because of a lack of everything else. We can't even decide whether it is better to run with shields or ditch it entirely for defense, that's how clueless we are because of the state of things. All this community has is the community, all just as in the dark as the others, and our willingness to explore.

 

I will state further:

 

StormGut is a stinker, but it got the ball rolling. Not because it gives up too much for Ret Blade, but because it doesn't give up enough to get better.

 

ST/Pyro is awesome, in all facets of gamepley. More so than those who haven't tried it realize.

 

That oddball Adv Proto/Pyro spec is a crap ton of DPS and potentially better than going all the way down either Adv Proto or Pyro for PvE. Some are having success with it in PvP, even without Thermal Burstonator.

 

That Rebounder tank build is bizzare as hell, but might actually turn out to be better for some forms of content. I sure as hell wouldn't try it but I can see how it is supposed to work.

 

This spec might fall on its face or it might become accepted cannon. I'm too busy testing ST/Pyro to check it out but I'll be damned if it isn't the obligation of this community to seriously explore it.

 

We are the pioneers of this game. If it is still around in another year, players will want a foundation of knowledge to stand on. We build that. Without proper tools we build it by discussing and trying things. Falling back on whatever "cookie cutter tank build" that goes all the way up our lackluster Tanking tree without considering what is actually needed to face content in this game vs what various specs have to offer is absolutely the wrong answer.

[exphryl]

Which of the ST/Pyro Builds do you use for Tanking Chain?

[chainsawsamurai]

Build v1.2 PvE Tank: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301G0Grd0roMZMsrrob.1

 

Two more things just real quick.

 

Dropping Supercharged Ion Gas in this build with the current state of the game is the right answer. However, keep a damn close eye on Ion Cylinder. Either the tooltip will be brought down in line with what the ability is actually doing or the ability itself will come up to match the tooltip.

 

IF the damage comes up to match the tooltip then Supercharged Ion Gas absolutely becomes worth the talent point. So definitely keep yourself informed on that. I would feel comfortable dropping 3% aim for it out of what you have left, Aim is a hell of a stat, but in Tank gear you don't have a hell of a lot of benefit from it in the first place cause you don't have very much.

 

I honestly don't see that happening however. The tooltip on ION is a LOT of damage, pretty ridiculous honestly, so I imagine it was nerfed and the tooltip is wrong. We'll see, hopefully I'm wrong, I'd love for it to hit that hard -- I'll be Rapid Firing noobs to death in Huttball.

 

Regarding Hitman, I don't consider it wasted points. Not because it's awesome, it isn't. There really just isn't anything else to spend those points on, so you might as well enjoy your short cooldown.

 

All in all, this does look like an interesting and probably perfectly serviceable spec. Be sure to come back when you've hit 50 and given it a solid road test to give us some feedback on it.

[chainsawsamurai]

Which of the ST/Pyro Builds do you use for Tanking Chain?

 

I'm out of town on a crappy netbook, I can't check to what my specific build is right now.

 

So long as you have:

 

Shieldtech

Shieldvents

Flame Shield

Jet Charge

 

 

Pyro

Superheated Rail

Prototype Particle Accelerator

 

Then you have the core of what makes the concept work and can jockey the rest of the points around to suit your needs in PvP or PvE. Mine has more of a PvP slantt, picking up the ION snare, etc. Does good in PvP, tanks great in PvE, and Mako thinks I look even sexier in Duraplate now.

 

I don't want to derail this post anymore with the ST/Pyro but it has been talked about a LOT in the last couple of days so there's plenty more information on these boards if you need it.

 

Edit: I also just realized what time it is. It is way past my bedtime and my girlfriend is going to be maaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

 

You guys got me in trouble...

Edited January 2, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[MorningMusume]

Or you could ditch your 10% shields and focus on shielding more through gear and end up in exactly the same place but with more interesting talents. Or you could gear as normal cause the shielding isn't all that great anyway and content doesn't push the envelope on tank numbers enough to bother yet.

 

Good luck getting 10% extra Shield from gear with the DR, will not happen.

 

With my gear I get around ~6% less damage with that skill, more mitigation/point than Power Armor. Undiminished defensive stats scale exponentially (that's why DR exists in the first place).

 

If the content doesn't push the envelope I can't really tell. I haven't done Nightmare Modes. And you?

 

Sorry that a build based on a new skill that isn't that good dmg/heat wise and spamming our worst damage/heat skill fishing for procs doesn't interest me. But would be better is all of this was based on numbers, not wishful thinking. I love to discuss real numbers!

Edited January 2, 2012 by MorningMusume

[exphryl]

I wonder if all these people who talk about Shield Chance realize, it's a chance. You know, NOT guaranteed Mitigation.

 

Tanking wise, it is almost always, in any game, 100% better to have guaranteed effective health than chance mitigation....

[Oceanemotion]

It isn't a lot of survivability and the current top end content doesn't even require it. In the future tiers of content this argument might stand. Currently, no. Unless you're way undergeared anyway.

 

As to what is gained in Adv Proto... I'll get to that in a moment.

 

 

 

Lower CD on Crapple you say? 10 seconds less on Crapple? Did someone say Crapple?

 

Grapple is a mob positioning ability, not a gap closer. Especially in PvE. 45 seconds is enough for 1 each pull. 35 seconds is enough for, wait for it, ONE each pull. Even if the pull lasted long enough for you to get a second one off, grats, it didn't help you with the initial wrangling and you're just showing off by using it.

 

The shorter cooldown on Flamethrower is nice though, and certainly worth mentioning over the lower cooldown on grapple. Still nothing to write home about, but I guess it is nice for the Tanking class that already has absurd AoE to have more right?

 

But losing your charge I really can't abide by. Jet Charge is such a great ability. Utility and mobility aside for just one moment, Jet Charge is fun. If we all take a moment to be really honest with ourselves, Jet Charge is the ability we rolled a Powertech for; to jetpack over and punch someone in the faceholes. The sound, the animation, the little fire and smoke trail, the ability is freaking perfect.

 

Taking that into consideration, now lets add mobility and utility back in to the equation. You're insane to go deeper than T2 in ST and not go deeper for Jet Charge.

 

 

 

Because Heat Blast is stupid. Really really stupid. It works out to ~.5 heat a second on an ability that hits about as hard as your Rapid Shots anyway. GG. This ability needs some love, in the meantime it is nothing to get worked up about a spec not having it.

 

I don't like Retractable Blade. I really love the animation, but the ability is kind of meh. Having said that, it is really efficient threat/heat/GCD. Much much much better than anything else ST has if you let it run its entire course.

 

You can expect Ret Blade, over its full duration, to do as much damage as a crit Rocket Punch. If any of the ticks crit, then it is more damage. Damage is threat, so I think you see where I'm going here. For 16 heat.

 

Ret Blade alone lets you entirely forget about Heat Blast. Why do you have Heat Blast? To do more attacks. Why do more attacks? To do more threat. Well now you've got Ret Blade which is so efficient you can do as much threat as a ST who has Heat Blast with less button presses and work.

 

 

 

This I agree with. Hitman is nothing to write home about unless the guy runs exclusively in pick up groups he finds in Imperial Fleet where he gets unreliable groupmates and has no one to interrupt but himself.

 

If this is the case, i'd still tell him to find a guild over picking up Hitman.

 

 

 

Reduced CD on flamethrower is awesome threat... if you're level 20. After that, yeah it's kind of a wash.

 

Retractable Blade certainly does more damage and threat than Heat Blast. Did you even read the tooltips or are you playing the "The Devs put it at the top of the tanking tree! OF COURSE its more damage and threat!" game. Cause thats a stupid game. Go play Yahtzee if you can't be bothered to read tooltips. It only involves small numbers.

 

Again, Heat Blast sucks. Its damage sucks. It has no other synergy within the tree, it just vents heat. A very small amount of heat over a protracted fight.

 

It also over complicates your rotation. See, because Heat Blast sucks so very very very hard, in order to maximize your heat usage you are doing the following.

 

-Stay below 40 heat (as usual)

 

-Stay above 0 heat (as usual)

 

-Make sure your next ability will not take you over 40 heat (as usual)

 

here is where things get exciting, and by exciting I mean sucktastic.

 

-If heat blast is coming off cooldown:

***Ensure you are OVER 13 Heat. Preferably 18.

***If last ability before Heat Blast will bring you over 40 heat

******If consequent heat > 40 && < 45ish && likely to only have one tick between

**********use ability and then Heat Blast

******if consequent heat > 46

**********Rapid Shot then Heat Blast then Ability

 

 

Problem is, to maximize threat you need to put Rocket Punch and Rail Shot on cooldown as SOON as possible. To minimize how ****** Heat Blast is you need to get it on cooldown as SOON as possible. These are conflicting interests which further muddies your rotation.

 

So you are fighting both ends of your heat bar, rather than just one, fighting your attack rotation priorities rather than letting them run smoothly, and having to pay way too much attention to your bars and cooldowns rather than the fight itself.

 

For what? So you can have another 60-90 heat for threat you don't need over the course of a 3 minute fight? Instead of more threat baseline by having better attacks and not using Heat Blast? So you can have lousy threat because your rotation is fighting itself more than necessary? No. Bad move. Heat Blast sucks.

 

Want to know the secret of BH tanking? Run up to the boss. Blow EVERYTHING you have. All of it. Totally piss away heat on Flame Bursts after your Rocket Punch and Rail Shot. Lay in to that boss like a level 11 noob. Get up to ~80 heat, then blow TSO and do that Rocket Punch that just refreshed. Then totally red line your heat. Now use vent heat and Rapid Shots a couple of times to get back below 40. Congratulations, you're now so far ahead on threat that you can go on autopilot and no one will catch you. Did you see Heat Blast involved in any of that? Neither did I.

 

Heat blast is only handy in trash pulls. It lets you be sloppy with Flame Spins and other high cost AoE and then drop yourself below the gate after your boo-boo. For the trash, which doesn't matter, heat blast is definitely worth the point. Hear that? For the part of the Operation that doesn't matter, Heat Blast is just the bee's knees.

 

Now that I'm done with that... There are LOTS of very good reasons to not go all the way 31 points deep in Shieldtech.

 

This spec isn't it. Hum a few bars while I take a look at it and I might get back to you.

 

I didn't think of the bleed dmg from retracable blade, which was ofc stupid of me, so ofc it does more dmg than heat blast..

 

But I really cant see how 10% shield chance cant be worth it, ALOT easier for healers to keep you up, and they use less force/energy/heat to keep you up, therefore more healing for everyone else, so dont tell me 10% shield chance is not worth it, maybe its not needed, but not taking it would be stupid imo when it comes to tanking..

[Snowpdx]

Fantastic discussion going on here, thanks to everybody who's contributing. Couple of things I wanted to throw out:

 

1.wish my carebear friends would have rolled empire, b/c BH>trooper in every way. Sadface.

 

2.keep messing with hybrid specs, don't let the haters get you down!

 

3.(most (only?) important point) avoidance vs mitigation discussions often devolve into repetition of "known facts" that are bogus. The concept of Effective Health (EH) was developed during the BC expansion of WoW, and perfected during the Wrath expansion - a time period where the tanking environment was defined by these key elements: (a)low relative tank health (b)high relative tank damage ©near-unlimited sustainable healer throughput. In this environment, tank deaths ONLY occurred due to spikes in damage intake. At the end of wrath, a tank facing Heroic LK could be 2-shot, and those two hits could occur within .1 second. In that setting having more HP (or more armor, but I don't want to derail myself into a full blown EH explanation) was the only way to increase your survival.

 

The opposite end of the spectrum, characterized by (a)relatively high health (b) relatively low tank damage ©low sustainable healer throughput hasn't ever been seen in an mmo, as far as I know. That environment would shift ideal tanking stats in the opposite direction, so that proper tank gearing would focus on conserving every possible ounce of healer mana by maximizing avoidance.

 

Where SW:tor tanking/healing fits on this spectrum seems pretty undefined ATM, but from what I've read tanks don't get blown up much and healers rarely run dry, giving us (a)high relative tank health (b)low relative tank damage ©high sustainable healer throughput. If that's an accurate picture of the state of things, then tank survivability isn't a pressing concern, and tanks can focus on the other parts of their job - smashing stuff in the face harder, so DPS can go harder, so everything dies sooner. Hybrid specs will most likely be the way to go until the relationship between (a) (b) and © changes.

 

If you hear/read someone making claims about survivability re:avoidance vs mitigation, make sure they've done their homework and aren't parroting what they read/were told by their old guild's MT "who knows everything" b/c it's a fair bit more complicated than most people realize.

 

Oi, wall o' text. Mea culpa.

[kwmarien]

One thing I want to add is that I personally don't see how the ST/Pyro spec can prove more viable than the ST/Adv seems.

 

I come to this conclusion mainly on the fact that you have to spend so many points in seemingly useless skills to get to the point where speccing in the Pyro tree has benefits to a Tanking Spec.

 

What I understand that the ST/Pyro spec is, is:

 

The core skills in Pyro from the ST/Pyro spec are:

 

* Superheated Rail Shot

* Prototype Particle Accelerator

* Incendiary Missile

 

And to get to those skills you have to dump points in:

 

- 3% Endurance ( 3 points )

- 8% increased dmg in Rocket Punch ( 2 points / Not such a bad investment though )

 

And then it gets even worse ...

 

- 100% chance to vent 8 heat but only when stunned/incapacitated/knocked down ( 2 points )

 

- 3 points in any COMPLETELY useless skill considering they all involve Combustible Gas Cilinder, which I don't see any Tank ever using.

 

.

.

.

 

What I gather from this is that you have to spend 7 points in lackluster/subpar skills imo considering the build you're aiming for + 3 points in a completely useless skill.

 

That are 10! points from your total of 40 points to get to those core skills of the Pyro-tree for a ST/Pyro Spec ...

 

I can absolutely not imagine how a ST/Pyro spec could ever prove more viable over a ST/Adv spec considering those facts.

 

Granted you get more heat control than the ST/Adv spec due to those core skills but maintaining heat shouldn't be much of a problem most of the time and ST/Adv Spec also has heat management skills so that doesn't suffice for me to choose a ST/Pyro spec.

 

Also, (I think) Rail Shot can't be used on every cooldown even with that spec considering it's a reactionary, which also means you have to look out for when it's available and you already have tons of things to look out for as a tank. So I can live without relying on Rail Shot procs/reactionary tbh...

 

Is my logic flawed or just ? Any more input ?

[Teacosy]

no discussion necessary, for PvE tanking. This build is a pile of ****

[kwmarien]

By all means, elaborate why the 2nd ST/Adv build (Somewhere on page 1 or 2, I doubt you read more than the 1st post...) I provided is that bad.

 

Is the loss of 10% CHANCE of reducing dmg so important to warrant losing aggro control amongst other things?

 

As I see it that's the only downside to the v1.2 ST/Adv spec I'm going to test and I'll try out both the "Standard" spec and my spec to see which one runs better, once lvl 50 ofc.

 

Let me know, cheers. ^^