Yeah. Definitely no attacks there at all. Since the mask I spoke of in the OP is not yet available for purchase, I cannot have purchased it yet. Setting that aside, talk about missing the forest for the tree. Everyone disagreeing with me is focusing on one portion of what I talked about which was the misleading answer about the Eradicator's mask and its pricing which I coupled with the fact that nearly all desirable cosmetic stuff is being gated by cartel packs. I did go on to talk about other areas, like the premium model and how it might be improved in terms of quality of life and converting free players into premium players who provided steady income. The ultimate endpoint of what I'd like to see is honest communication and improvements to the game such that the net result is more, better and faster content releases. You can argue all day about how nobody forces people to buy something, but it's a flawed argument. You're making a point that has absolutely no relevance whatsoever. Of course nobody is forced to spend any money on a video game. So what you're saying is an obvious truth but means nothing. How many people do you suppose were enticed to buy the Eradicator's set at 900 coins because a Bioware employee said the mask was coming soon and would be cheap? Do you think more than 50% of the cost of the rest of the items combined can be considered "cheap"? I don't think it's too much to ask that Bioware employees refrain from intentionally misleading people. And it seems to me that they especially don't want to intentionally mislead the people who are actually using the CM, since presumably those are the people spending the most money and giving the most profit. There's a number of different ideas in play here. Since you have so brilliantly landed upon the obvious truth that nobody is forced to spend money on the game, would you care to move on to the other topics being discussed? Your logic is irrefutable, but also completely irrelevant to any meaningful discussion. It amounts to saying "The sky is blue." Congratulations, you are capable of seeing the obvious.

If the only thing I talked about was that mask price, maybe your point would hold up, but I also talked about issues with the premium model and issues with slow content release. I had more than just one point, although that one point was the catalyst for me posting my thoughts on where I think Bioware can improve their model. By all means disagree with me on the specifics. If you think my suggestions are bad, say so and point out the problems with them. But also by all means tell us what you think will improve things.

There goes the ad hominem attack again. I have no problem supporting game companies for products I enjoy. Turbine has made a good chunk of money for entertaining me. Funcom got a lifetime sub for TSW out of me. Bioware has made probably a thousand dollars between my account and my wife's. You don't get to just declare what my motives are. I already talked about my motives. Character attacks are not helpful and just make you look incapable of having a rational debate. Actually this is demonstrably untrue. When the Eradicator's set was released and people asked about the head slot, we were told it would come as a future purchase for cartel coins and that it's cost would be "small". In the context of the cost for the Eradicator's set sans helmet (900 cc), 480cc simply cannot be referred to as "small" with a straight face. That information was not clearly laid out in front of any of us. The vague promise that it was coming and that its cost would be "small" seems intended to make people feel comfortable purchasing the set. Once that initial purchase is made, they're far more likely to purchase the head slot, even though the cost is not "small" in the way a Bioware employee implied. Context is key. Is 480cc a small cost? Compared to items which cost 1800cc, sure it's a "small" cost. Compared to the rest of the suit it is paired with? No, 480cc is not " small". More character attacks. If we're talking about growing up, you might want to take a look in the mirror. For the most part adults are capable of having a discussion on the merits without insulting the person they're having the discussion with. It's children who are expected to resort to personal attacks and such. Just because I enjoy the game and just because I've decided to financially support Bioware, I am not obligated to believe or pretend that their system or game are perfect. In fact I would argue that I have a more vested interest in giving out constructive criticism and pushing for changes that will benefit both the company trying to make a profit and the players who want the best possible Star Wars gaming experience. I would like to see each class' storyline continued. I would like to see more and larger content updates (1 planet and 1 new op is pretty slim on content by some standards) that come more frequently. I would like to see the announcement that happened right after launch about real space combat actually come back and make it into the game. I would like to see the player population continue to grow. I would like to see the premium model be less harsh to players and encourage them to pay for what they want and thus benefit both them and Bioware. I would like to see Bioware make back the development cost of the game several times over. In short, what I want for the game is what anyone who is a fan of the game should want, and what I presume Bioware should want. The question is ... how do they get there? The premium experience is fairly universally reviled by returning players and the gaming media as being obnoxiously limited. There are loads of things which could be improved so that people who choose the premium route can actually have an enjoyable experience and Bioware can make a profit on those people. I think it's something like $150 right now to buy up everything in DDO that subscribers get (with the exception of the couple subscriber only perks). Allowing people to pay a fee to permanently unlock their credit cap is probably a good place to start. Generally you want to let people pay a premium a la carte price to unlock things on a permanent basis. Then those folks feel like they "own" it and can take a break and come back to it whenever they like. When they feel funneled into subscribing just to have basic quality of life in the game, then they have to make a much different commitment to the game. I'd think Bioware would want to get that segment of the gaming population invested, but at the moment the model is viewed as obnoxious by most people and thus many refuse to come back or even try the game, just based upon the restrictions and the bad press they got. That's a huge area where they can re-evaluate and probably make quite a lot of profit by doing it right. I mean, I'm sure everyone posting in this thread defending Bioware rabidly without thought could take a few minutes and think of a way the game could be improved in a way that would be likely to result in more profits for Bioware. So instead of slinging "grow up" comments at me and attacking my character, why don't you try and be constructive? I've certainly shown my support of Bioware where it counts ... with my wallet. You forum warriors who jump all over anyone who dares criticize ... talk is cheap. I'm pretty sure I've given more legitimate support to the game than anyone in this thread attacking my character. So please, take the opportunity to express the things that would make you or your friends more likely to start playing or keep playing, as the case may be. That's really what Bioware wants. More players paying to enjoy the game. The status quo isn't likely to achieve that end.

That's a pretty interesting post. I think it comes a bit close to reductio ad absurdum. We can reduce anything to your argument, at which point we have no real place to have a discussion. What I was trying to say is that they said the facemask was going to be a small cost relative to the set cost, but then when they tell us the price it's more than 50% of the main set cost. While 480 coins is a small cost to me (and many people I assume) it's not a small cost relative to the cost of the rest of the set. I took advantage of the opportunity to point out a couple places where it seems like Bioware is losing potential customers. I think all of us could make a list of things that would improve the experience for both premium and subscribing players, and an improved experience for everyone should equate to more profit for Bioware which should equate to more content (and maybe even going back to diverging and individualized stories, and MAYBE even the fabled real space combat that was announced just after launch but which I cannot find reference to anymore). I've seen the argument in this thread that the pace of content release is acceptable, but honestly I have to disagree. Asheron's Call was able to release significant new content on a monthly basis for a decade with a playerbase of 100-200k tops. The Secret World releases new content faster than SW:ToR. In both cases I'm talking about much smaller development teams with far fewer resources, and yet they were able to keep the content coming. So please, whether you agree with me about the facemask being overpriced or not, see if you can think of some things that they could change which would make the game more appealing to premium players and subscribers alike, and by that effect lead to more players and profits and by effect lead to more content for us.

You might want to scroll up a bit and look at my screenshot with over $700 in support of the game from me. It's not a matter of affordability for me. Now that your ad hominem attack on me is soundly disproved, care to actually contribute to the discussion? I doubt you're actually familiar with what you were doing, so let me help you: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem The specific character/personality trait you attacked was my integrity. You attacked my integrity suggesting that my actual motive for this post was to make things affordable to me instead of my actual stated motives. /golfclap for predictable trolling though.

What a completely asinine comment. Even the biggest fanboy wouldn't tell people to just get lost. Just trolling (same for the next post). Wanting the game to get better is never something anyone should disagree with.

When I last played DDO there were +2 tomes in the store which you could call pay to win, I suppose. As for LotRO, I was unaware they had added lockboxes. How disappointing. Prior to that, you have to admit the system was pretty great. You could buy quest regions and cosmetic items basically. Sad to hear they've shifted more towards the Perfect Word direction. As far as TSW goes, they've got a great system and from what they've said it's helping. They did have to consolidate their dev team, but the guy who is overseeing all their games is the person they had who had experience with all three teams. They're still pushing out content faster then anyone else in the market, so to me they are successful. The Secret World is a game everyone should try and at least play through the Maine portion. First MMO to try and break away from the WoW mold in a long time, and lots of interesting elements. Love the sabotage and investigation missions. In fact, I've seen some similar stuff in SW:ToR that remind me of the sabotage missions in TSW.

From what I've seen on the forums, you defend Bioware so rabidly that people assume you are an employee posting from an non-linked account, but you asked for "proof", so here you go. I think I missed one 6-month sub, and this also isn't showing my wife's account (she only started playing about 2 months before the expansion). http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/DarkWyndre/sharedstuff/swtorcosts_zps6f212fd2.jpg $715.72 on that screenshot, and I'm pretty sure there's another $75ish from another 6-month sub that should be in there somewhere. So yeah, I put my money where my mouth is. I say I like the game and my money backs up my talk.

I'm not really upset emotionally. I think that bioware is making a mistake and could be doing a much better job of monetizing the game in ways that are less ethically shady. One of those better ways would be a better hybrid model. Another would be producing actual content as opposed to vanity items. My comment to the fanboys was really just because they have nothing to add to the discussion. They will predictably come in and say "It's profitable so they're right and you're wrong" or "you can buy stuff with credits, so it's a non-issue" even though both of those arguments miss my points completely. They bring nothing to the discussion. They just rabidly defend Bioware from any criticism, even criticism which is given in an attempt to be constructive and help improve things. I mean, if Bioware tweaked their model and made even more profit, and then was able to put out real content more frequently, wouldn't that be a net win for everyone? So it's not useful for fanboys to come in and say "everything's fine as is. There's nothing to criticize" when really we all know that content is coming very slowly and the vast majority of visible development in the game is being put into cartel packs As a side note: I cannot keep up with the thread. I'll try to answer as much as I can but without multi-quote it's difficult. If I don't reply to you it's probably because I read past your post and saw something I wanted to respond to and just didn't go back. I would welcome other constructive suggestions for how Bioware can make more profit and thereby make more real content and thereby attract more players and keep them around longer. All of this benefits those of us who love and play the game and also Bioware who is trying to profit from it. I think we call that outcome a "win-win" right?

This makes complete sense to me. I agree that everyone is responsible for their own choices. It's never anyone but the addict's fault when an addict spends money on their addiction. That said ... it's very well established that addicts have specific psychological triggers. MMO's are built around exploiting them to keep people playing and paying. The cartel packs exploit these triggers. There's no way that Bioware doesn't know this and isn't intentionally exploiting this. As far as being able to buy things with credits ... that's certainly true ... but premium players have a very small credit cap and can't afford much of the nicer stuff, and subscribers who want certain things (Revan's Mask, Ambassador's Meditation Chair, etc...) are looking at 10mil credits a pop, which isn't all that hard to get (even if you just grind dailies you can do it in less than a month) but for an addict part of the trigger is the opening the pack and the anticipation, and having to grind out dailies for a long time period and/or play the market in order to afford just one item takes the kind of patience and resistance to temptation that addicts rarely display. Whose fault is it ultimately when someone makes a bad decision? That person's fault, obviously. Companies can choose to exploit that weakness in people or not. The difference between Funcom (The Secret World) and Turbine (DDO, LotRO) vs. Bioware is that the former companies have been able to monetize without exploiting the psychology of addiction while it seems like Bioware is exploiting it. I think at best it's an ethical grey area. And I think everyone can agree that we would rather see actual missions and storyline content as opposed to more cosmetic toys gated behind the lottery of cartel packs, yes?

Or maybe people with gambling addictions try to avoid the usual places where they succumb to the addiction and spend money they cannot afford to. Seems to me like a video game offering dozens of hours a month of entertainment for $15 would seem like a safe place to go for an addict. I will give Bioware this though: They aren't behaving like Perfect World Entertainment. Those folks will give you a dozen "lockboxes" an hour and then push you to buy keys to unlock them at $1.25 a pop. And they gate actual pay to win useful stuff in the boxes instead of cosmetics.

No. Their stated purpose in buying was for the hybrid model. The LotRO franchise isn't owned by Turbine or WB. It's licensed and up for renewal next year.

If you don't think so, you may want to read up on the nature of addiction.

And how do you know that they couldn't profit even more with a different approach? Exploiting people with a gambling addiction is always profitable. Look at Las Vegas. Just because they're making more revenue doesn't mean they're taking the best possible approach and it doesn't excuse them from preying upon people with addictions. It also doesn't mean there aren't better ways for them to monetize the game and make even more profit. There are even proven ways to do so AND improve the perception of their premium status as being set up intentionally to funnel people into subscription status. Throw some real quality of life unlocks on the market (credit cap is the biggest one I can think of). Then sell content in packs like DDO, LotRO, and The Secret World all do. Then all you have to do to profit from premium players is put out enough content that they have content to buy. As I said, I love the game and I've heavily invested in it. If a lifetime subscription was made available for like $300, I would buy it on the spot, and probably STILL buy coins every month. My wife has all the cool toys and we both enjoy the game and we're happy to support it. That doesn't mean it's perfect or the way they're monetizing it is ethical or the best way. Constructive Criticism is something every developer needs. For those of you rushing to defend Bioware's model as being perfectly fine as is, please read the following article - http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/ ... Specifically read the part about "The unhelpful fanboy". I can make a post with a very lengthy lists of great things about the game. I can also make a list to rival the "death by a thousand papercuts" post. My interest is in seeing more story for all the classes and seeing more people come try the game and stick around. My experience and observation tell me that some modification to how the game is monetized would be likely to increase Bioware's playerbase and consequently their bottom line. Constructive criticism is pointing out things which are not working as well as they could (or are just broken) and offering suggestions for how to improve. As a game developer (I'm designing an indie game with a small 8 man dev team), I can tell you that the most valuable member, to me, on the team is the guy who picks apart every system and tells us what's crap and needs to be re-done or scrapped entirely. Thanks to that person, our prototype is better in every way than we expected our release to be. I'm not so sure Bioware has one of those people ... or if they do I'm not sure they listen to him.

That's just it though. My point in a nutshell. They're making great profits with shady and unethical practices. Imagine how much more they could make with a better approach that respected the customer. Seriously go look at how LotRO and DDO monetize. Turbine was so successful with their model that Warner Bros. purchased them basically to have the hybrid model for use elsewhere. Admit it or not, the packs/hypercrates are predatory. They are straight up gambling and many people play video games to escape from real lives where the ends barely meet. I'm fortunate enough (and worked hard enough) to have a very comfortable income, so I can indulge in playing that lottery without any consequence. How many people barely able to pay their bills have spent that $60 to buy a hypercrate because of their gambling addiction and then had to face harsh real life consequences for doing so? If there were a way to earn packs as rewards in game, or to earn coins at a reasonable rate (as in DDO and LotRO), that would be one thing, although it would still seem very predatory to me that the most sought after items come from those packs. Taking your whales (the people who buy up everything you put on the market to support you) and making them pay extra a month or two later for the last piece of cosmetic armor in a set ... it doesn't get more shady than that really. It would be one thing if the cost was "small" as one of the CM's originally said, but there's no way you can say more than 50% of the cost of the rest of the suit is a "small" cost with a straight face.

Bioware, Speaking as someone who bought a collector's edition, subbed all the way through f2p and still subscribe now, who has purchased like 30,000 cartel coins to support you further, I would like to know why you are taking your best customers and trying to nickle-and-dime us for more. It's the people who are making this game profitable who are the ones buying Cosmetic stuff on your cash shop, and then we get stuff like this: We were told the mask would be added and the cost would be low, but it costs more than 50% of the price of the rest of the suit. Never mind that it should just have been included with the suit in the first place. I mean it's what $8 or so to buy that suit? Now you want another $4-5 for the mask? Same thing with the Stalwart armor. Everything but a proper trooper helm, and once that comes out, is it going to be 800 cc so it's roughly the same relative cost to the suit as the eradicator's mask is to the eradicator's suit? With your excessively punitive F2P model, you drive a lot of potential customers away. if people could permanently purchase unlocks for the credit limit, for example, you would have a lot more premium players buying in your shop instead of quitting because the only way they can really play is to subscribe. Then you have people who subscribe and that's what you get from them, and I'm sure you're happy to have as many of them as possible. But then you have the people who subscribe AND give you another $40-$100 or more a month because we can afford to support something we enjoy. Your response to people like us? You want to reach in our pocket some more by withholding head slot items and then milking us a month or two later since we already snagged the rest of the set. We will gladly support the game we love. You don't have to implement used car salesman tactics and terrible marketing gimmicks on us. In fact, the more you do, the less I feel like giving you extra money. Your extra money for cartel coins this month instead bought my wife and front row seats to see Rod Stewart in October. Keep on treating me like an ATM instead of a person and I'm sure I can keep finding other places to spend my entertainment budget. ------------------------ To all the Bioware fanboys, just don't bother to troll the thread. I am a huge SW:ToR fan. If I wasn't, I would not have sunk hundreds (maybe approaching thousands by now?) of my entertainment budget dollars into the game. My post is made out of a frustration with the predatory tactics being employed. Yes, I know that Bioware and this game need to make a profit, which is why I support it above and beyond. There's a vast difference between making a profit and giving your best customers a fecal sandwich and calling it fine dining. @Bioware - Please take this for what it is: constructive criticism. Go look at how Turbine monetized DDO and LotRO and learn some lessons. Please. I've never felt like Turbine was trying to manipulate me into an extra purchase based upon a previous purchase I made. I've never felt like they were trying to prey upon people with addictions (like it or not, the cartel packs are terrible for gambling addicts, and you are preying upon that no matter how you want to spin it. Ethically it's a bankrupt practice). You guys have a GREAT product, and you can make TONS of money on it without resorting to shady practices and exploitation of people with addictions and your best customers. Just my 2 credits, for whatever they're worth.

I'm holding on to the spare rep items I had from my last hypercrate. I really appreciate your response. I would really like to see my 2nd suggestion implemented. Even if the trade-in ratio is very high, I can still buy hypercrates and support you guys and know that even if I have bad luck with what I get or I get no certificates, I can trade those rep items in slowly for certificates and eventually get something cool. With my suggested turn-in ratio, I would get 3-4 certificates for the rep items I currently have in my bank. If that's a bit too fast, bump my ratios up a bit so it's like 2-3. At that point, if someone wants one of the 10 certificate items, they're probably going to be dropping $100+ if they end up getting it by trading in rep items once they're capped. This seems to me like a pretty easy way to give your most valuable customers some incentive and assurance that at the worst case they'll be able to get a cool item every so often. I appreciate that there was a response and I hope you guys really consider the idea. I will be hanging on to my rep items and probably if I buy any packs/crates going forward I'll GTN them and get what I'm looking for that way. Then at least with the current system someone will get the rep from the items and they won't gather dust in my cargo bay

Who says I bought packs prior to the enforcer's packs?

Because we pay extra real money to obtain them. If it's something we're buying on the cash shop it should have a use. Allowing rep capped customers to use the left-over rep items to convert into a couple extra certificates per hypercrate still leaves the person buying an extra 3-5 hypercrates just to add up to one of the current 10 certificate items ... and they will likely add more of those over time. You don't think it makes sense for Bioware to give their customers incentive to spend extra money?

That's irrelevant. The enforcer's and vice-comandant packs come with an extra item. Comparing apples to oranges.

No <((()))>< here mate.

But I don't have to pay real money to do dailies.

Generally Revan's mask runs about 5mil, the sash has been as high as 4-4.5mil. I got mine from randomly buying a cheaply priced space pack on the GTN one day, so that was cool. An interesting thing to note... I believe I opened something like 100 total enforcer's packs, and I never saw a single white-black crystal. I think that may be the only thing that didn't drop. I saw all the armor pieces, the toothpick, the blue efficiency scanner, the mounts, the pets, the moods/emotes, etc... everything except white-black.

Oh, I think the whole bound for 36 hours thing is intentional because for many people that urge to gamble is very strong. I actually wanted quite a lot of the stuff in the Enforcer's packs either for myself or my wife, and the xp boosts and companion gifts are all useful at least until you have all the classes maxxed with all their companion affection capped, heh. My wife quite enjoys the various pets and emotes and such, even if they don't have a lot of value... so for me I can get the stuff I'm looking for and she gets a stream of gifts over time that are the neat little things she enjoys. As far as I've seen on my server (Shadowlands), the price of hypercrates has come down to around 5-6mil, so that would be enough to get like ... Revan's mask ... or maybe one of the super rare mounts.

I wasn't advocating for the certificates to become unbound, and in fact if you re-read my suggestion #2, I think the best solution is to make it so that, once capped with CRC, the three rep items can be traded in (at some rate that seems reasonable to the devs) for certificates. I mean, there are like 6 items that take 10 certificates + 100,000 credits on that one vendor alone. With the rarity of the certificates, there's going to be a very large amount of the green, blue and purple rep items stacked up in some dusty corner of one of my cargo holds before I get enough certificates to get the various items. I would say it's probably 15-18 crates worth of packs to get 50 certificates. For like 11+ of those crates, the non-certificate rep items are worthless. But I don't think the certificates should be tradeable if they do something like the first suggestion. There are some things you can get with the rep that don't cost certificates, after all.