Hoff
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Posts posted by Hoff
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Please understand that comparing damage between classes at an arbitrary level (16) is not going to yield any useful insight into power differences between classes.
A wild developer has appeared. Master Ball go........
Based on my non-arbitrary level 50 powertech and lvl 50 operative, why does my powertech do way more damage AND way more burst while also having MORE survivability and actually having utility?
Another note: If melee classes and ranged classes are meant to do the same DPS in raids and PvP, then all knockbacks need to be removed (especially from operations). If knockbacks are going to remain, then melee need to do more DPS than ranged and/or have way more utility than ranged.
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Your numbers are of course correct sir.
Basicly, for someone to hit with 2800 with cull, they have to have 2 dots on the target, and weakening blast, and under 30% health, with full BM gear, buffs, stims, and relics.
Right?
Screenshot one.
2814 damage on a cull, ONE dot, NO weakening blast, no crit stims active
That must have been a fluke... right?
Screenshot 2:
2912 damage... ONE dot, no weakening blast, not under 30% health, no stims.... hmm, weird?
Screenshot 3: Well, I guess in any match, a fluke might happen once or twice...
3010 damage... man, at least I had 2 dots on him, without weakening blast, without stims, crits, WITHOUT BM gear on me, buffs... Another fluke?
You are retarded, 2800 is with amazing gear before crit and before armor reduction. Your numbers basically prove how bad Cull is.
Screenshot 1 - Triple Cull CRIT for 2810
Screenshot 2 - Double Cull Crit for 2664 (sorry but the corrosive grenade crit isn't part of your Cull brochacho)
Screenshot 3 - Double Cull Crit for 2677 (again, your corrosive grenade tick isn't par of your Cull)
Thanks for proving my point. Also, it's worth mentioning AGAIN because it's a MAJOR flaw with Cull. Cull is a RANGED attack, not tech. It is based off of RANGED ACCURACY and can be saber deflected and evaded as such. This is a BIG DEAL.
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All of your numbers are based off good gear. His numbers are based off base damage. (no gear)
In response to your other post. I'll give you concealment has better burst. As I stated before its sustain is only superior by ~100dps witch is easily negated by kitting.
The big thing your ignoring is MULTI-TARGET DAMAGE. Lethality can easily dot 3 ppl then focus fire someone. Concealment can only dps one person at a time, and is very stealth dependent. Sure concealment has better burst, but lethality has near equal sustain and FAR better aoe. Bottomline is that Warzones are not 1v1, and lethality is capable of higher overall dps with more targets involved.
Uh, the only thing that lethality gets over concealment in terms of "multi target dotting" is corrosive grenade, which frankly, blows ***. A concealment operative has pretty much the same corrosive dart damage, much better energy management, and no, they don't require stealth. Acid blade + backstab = lots of damage.
Concealment can easily DoT 3 people and then focus fire someone and is not super stealht dependent.
I don't see how lethality has FAR better AoE when they only get corrosive grenade over a concealment operative. 2k damage over 21 seconds if it doesn't get cleansed times the number of people it hits (usually 1-3 at most because you are trying to keep DoTs on your focus cull target).
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What armor do you guys PVP in? I've seen recently some operatives with full Columi gear that do really well in Warzones with 18k HP and a lot of cunning. Centurion gear seems to only stack craploads of accuracy. Its reduced my crit and surge by 7-8% which I'm really not happy with.
Any gearing advice? Should I work for some PvE gear or does the champion set makes things better?
I use the pvp set that gives extra range on our interrupt and the extra tick on orbital strike. I swapped out the accuracy enhancement for end/crit/surge ones.
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I know I will hate myself for this post if I see alot of lethality OPs from now on, but here goes:
Lethality:
Corrosive Dart - Minimum damage, long dot.
Corrosive Grenade - Min dmg, long dot.
So far, no damage.
Cull Base damage: 780-912. (Vs Lacerate 843 base damage).
Adds another 259 pr dot effect on the target thats yours.
If Corrosive Dart that means: 1171.
If corrosive dart AND grenade: 1430.
Now, we done yet? no sir.
Cut down adds another 6% to that base damage, that means:
1515,8
We done? no.
Weakening blast adds another 30% effect on it, as cull counts as a poison effect:
1970.
So, before ANY pvp armor, before your stat increases you are looking at a 1970 shot, before you crit.
A spammable, 10 meter range shot, that because it counts as a poison attack bypasses ALL SHIELDS and guards...
Tell me how thats not burst?
The highest ive critted is 8k with it... and im not full BM gear.
Just saying.
LOLOLOL, trust me. You have nothing to worry about. The intelligent and skilled operatives will stay concealment.
Lacerate = 1650 damage with good gear, collateral strike for 430 = 2080 total, round up to 2100.
Acid Blade = 1700 damage over 6 seconds with good gear.
Hidden strike = 2100 damage with good gear.
Backstab = 1700 damage with good gear.
vs.
Corrosive Grenade = 2000 over 21 seconds, can be AoE
Cull = 1200 base + 550 per DoT with good gear.
Weakning Blast = 750 + 10x 30% bonus to DoTs .
Acid blade poops all over weakning blast and corrosive grenade alone. Only the +550 part of Cull gets +30% from weakening blast. Plus you have to have accuracy on your gear to use Cull reliably because it is based off of ranged accuracy instead of tech. It also can be avoided via evasion and saber ward for the same reason.
Assuming best case scenario where you have 2 DoTs, they are under 30% hp, and weakening blast on the target. Your Cull is still only going to hit for 1200+(1100*1.45)= 2800. Sorry but even with 100% surge, you're not going to hit anywhere near 8k. Most targets will be above 30%, most targets will cleanse your DoTs, most targets will poop all over you while you spend 10-15 seconds setting up your "burst."
1.5s = Dart
3s = Grenade
4.5s = Weakening Blast
6s = Shiv
7.5s = Cull
That's assuming no lag in between and that you don't get stunned, nor do they cleanse your DoTs.
Again, check the spreadsheet I linked. At NO point during a 300 second fight does lethality surpass concealment DPS, nor does it come close to the same burst.
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yes haha very funny but in all seriousness any reccommendations for content?
If you're asking for recommendations on how to write the guide, you OBVIOUSLY shouldn't be writing the guide and most likely need one yourself.
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I have tons of experience and am really looking forward to writing one up. Have a few ideas in mind already
Introduction:
Reroll
This guide brought to you by Flutterspy of The Crucible Pits.
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Do you have any data to support this? They both have strengths and weaknesses. Its illogical to try to say one is better all together. You could say one is more viable, but in this case that's not mathematically true.
Seems that everyone is ignoring my post with the data that proves concealment does more burst and more sustain. Concealment obviously has more survivability as well.
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You mean that spreadsheet in IA class forums that
a) uses numbers from before Concealment nerf
b) says that while Concealment has a higher burst, and sustain, its higher only by about 100-150 damage
c) and focuses only on PvE ?
Because I couldn't find any other number-crunching related to Lethality vs. Concealment on that side. If I missed something I would greatly appreciate if you could link it, as stuff like that is relevant to my interests.
It's most definitely post-nerf and of course it focuses on PvE. If you want to talk PvP rotations, concealment has a much much easier time getting off the optimal rotation than lethality does due to the wonkiness of lethality. Lethality also has issues with energy while concealment does not.
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This is a very simple trick to help push the op dps (assassins don't need it) a little farther. Start the fight as an op, then vanish and switch immediately to your mercenary. Once two minutes goes by, vanish and switch back to your op so you can scoop loot. As the only boss fight that lasts more than five minutes is soa, this rotation will work perfectly to maximize your dps on all boss fights.
Fixed.
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lol.
This just goes to show the idiots playing lolconcealment.
I outdamage you, I have higher burst then you (but I cant OPEN with that high a burst, but I definately burst more).
Learn to use lethality, and youll see what I mean.
Sithwarrior.com has crunched the numbers to back up the fact that concealment does higher burst and higher sustain than lolethality, but hey, this is the internet, facts don't matter. Therefore, LOLOLUMAD USO BAD LETH SUX CONC PWNZ J00 NUB.
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I tried to make it clear, I figured saying solo queue and pug 3x would be enough. This is a solo queue pug group. I'm not on vent with these people. My goal is to get as much valor is possible. Blame BW for not making actually doing the objectives give more valor than kill farming.
That being said, when I go into pug groups I tend to focus their best dps or a healer. If I focus a ball carrier, I will give him full resolve and let him walk into the goal. You want to let people knock off/pull the ball carrier to bad spots before you damage him anyways. If I notice my team has a good chance at winning, I'll help objectives when I can. Operatives are terrible in huttball, so I really don't care. I'll NEVER EVER play in ranked huttball on my Operative (I'll play on my powertech) because they are a waste of a slot. I don't care what you say, anything you can do as an Operative in huttball, everyone else does better.
The best thing you can do in huttball as an operative is kill their best DPS, kill/occupy their best healer, and keep doing it over and over. You are useless because you have no mobility skills so your goal should be to keep one of their players who CAN actually do something to affect the ball from doing so. You sit near their side and constantly harass and if the opportunity presents itself, you can take a quick pass for a score. Until they give operatives mobility or some form of sustained DPS you should be constantly bursting one of their best players and restealthing over and over again. Otherwise you're just attempting to do something your class wasn't designed for.
You are an enforcer, you take out their best player and keep them from doing their thing. If you wanna be a forward or defender, you roll a different class, otherwise you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. When I play huttball I play saying, "If I don't get to have fun abilities to actually have an impact in this warzone, then you don't get to have fun either."
TLDR - Operatives don't go for objectives in huttball, they are a force multiplier that harasses the best enemy DPS and/or healer over and over so that they can't do anything. If you want to go for objectives in huttball, play a sorc, tank sin, juggernaut, or shieldtech powertech. Otherwise, your job is to make it so that if YOU can't have fun, NOBODY can have fun.
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Forget the damage comments because our damage is ok, not great, not good, but ok. Overall damage in war zones is overrated because of the powerful aoe many other classes have. However, we should be competitive in the kills.
That said, the op has great points. Since our burst has been nerfed to where it isn't really burst anymore, we need to be able to stay on our target to be effective. However, we have no means of staying on our target outside of our opening stuns. This is a real issue. When they nerfed our burst they should have given us a gap closer or buffed our ranged damage a bit.
I'm sorry but no, just....no. Powertechs/Vanguards and Mercs/Commandos do way more burst and sustain than operatives. They also have more utility via knockbacks and/or pulls and/or charges.
Yes, mobility is a problem, but the fact remains that we are the squishiest class in the game without any damage to make up for it.
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Ok
Woke up, have a heavy hangover. Remember the last night when you met this awesome class that had stealth, had damage, was fast, could self-heal while low, had strong CC and dispatch kill their enemies before anyone could react.
Now the burst is taken away you have a sobering realization that the cool class of last night is actually a clunky, slow-moving, mediocre damage, who cant heal at all unless specced into it, having less CC than other classes, no mobility and no good defensive cooldowns...
oh crap, i sure wish i used protection and didnt give this class my number id hate for them to show up when im with my true love, the sith assassin...
anyway, operatives suck, they need to be buffed and brought in line with other classes, not in the damage department but IN EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT!
Yup, I started gearing my 50 ptech after banging my head against the wall on my operative. So little damage, so little utility, so little survivability as evidenced in this huttball http://www.twitch.tv/hoffburger/b/308398528.
I'll still do the dailies on my operative in the hopes that they are buffed, but my powertech will be my primary focus for now. They just do so much damage.
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Forgive the poor quality, but here is what you can expect from a typical huttball pug if you solo queue as an operative. This is a lucky one in that I didn't get knocked around a lot either. By no means is this my most skilled/best game, but this should give newer players an idea of what to expect from an operative in decently geared warzones.
If you care a lot about quality, then don't watch, this isn't a montage video with crazy editing. This is just an excerpt from my stream showing what a typical decently geared operative can expect from huttball when pugging solo.
Things to note:
- Powertech/Pyrotechs do retarded amounts of damage and burst compared to us
- Sorcs dominate huttball
- Jarring strike is buggy as hell, sometimes enemies teleport around, sometimes they look like they are facing a direction when they are facing the opposite direction
- I am in full champion gear with the enhancements swapped out for crit/surge enhancements, using power adrenal and crit/surge relic
- I am extremely squishy and am forced to retreat as soon as anyone looks at me funny
TLDR - Not a montage, not best quality, watch if you need to see what a typical champion geared operative pugging huttball looks like
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Higher burst : clearly concealment
better CC : well concealment is better on the single target department for sure with a 2s immobilize and a knock down. All lethality has is a 30% AoE slow at 30m range (which is far from useless)
better survivability : well it's not as simple as you state it. It's mainly a matter of 2% health every 3s or having your shield up 50% of the time instead of 33%. Personaly, I prefer the shield buff.
better energy management : concealment for sure. The main problem of lethality is the cost of its DoTs. Renewing your DoTs mid fight really cut down your rotation for a while. Lethal purpose give you tons of energy but that does not change the fact that you will have to eat through that pool for DoT renewal and be starve for a while. Cull damage/energy ratio is far from being impressive too.
Sithwarrior.com numbers : Well the calculations there for the op aren't really serious for an easy to understand reason : they don't take armor into consideration (well from what I read but I can be wrong). That and lethal purpose was not taken into account either (which makes a big difference). That's why I don't think they are a good representation.
So no, in a real fight lethality should have a better sustainable damage output but the difference is far from what it should be (because of reasons you mentioned aka poor buff talents (seriously what are they waiting for to buff devouring microbes) and energy management).
As for the Pwertech comparison ... I can't tell anything. I'm curious though, what's the damage of your missile? (I guess you are level 50).
You're forgetting that concealment also gets a shorter cooldown on vanish, which is our main escape/defensive ability. They can also heal after vanishing, unlike lethality. Lethality has to get in close to do any sort of real damage and at that point, you might as well be concealment. Concealment can still do nearly as much ranged damage as lethality, they just miss out on corrosive grenade, which, to be honest, is terrible.
My powertech incendiary missile crits for anywhere between 900-1.2k depending on the target. Lower health targets take more damage, just like lethality. Combustible crits pretty hard too, in the 700 range.
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Concealment still does more sustained DPS than lethality operative, has higher burst, has better CC, has better survivability, and has better energy management. Sithwarrior.com has the numbers crunched showing concealment still does more DPS (mainly because the Acid Blade DoT just poops all over corrosive grenade and the lethality damage buff talents blow). Seriously, my pyrotech powertech does more DoT DPS with incendiary missile (1 GCD) than both corrosive dart and corrosive grenade combined. Plus, rail shot does just as much damage as cull and has higher armor pen. Plus, rail shot is way cheaper to use and is often reset and made free by talents.
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why would they nerf it? you can't balance/start nerfing based upon PVP..
LLOLOLOLOLOLLLLOLOOLOLOL, my operative would like to have a word with you sir.
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While they do respectable burst and can push out decent heals, I do feel they are the one class that needs a little something extra to help them in Huttball utility. They have no knockback, no grapple, no speed boost (except a minor one on the defensive CD if spec'd), no leap-to. Not sure what they could use, but just a little something might be nice for 'em.
In Voidstar and Civil War, however, they really don't lack at all.
Melee without gap closer = retarded design. Assassins at least have a speed boost that can break snares/roots and 30m CC. Operatives have no gap closers and no CC that is >10m range.
I think giving them a sprint, a shadowstep, or increasing debilitate/sever tendon to 30m would do the trick.
As far as huttball goes, they need a buff in damage or a charge. Otherwise there is no reason to play them over a jugg/ptech/sin.
When ranked BGs come out I can't put myself on a team with good conscience because I know I'm hurting the team as an operative unless the whole team skips every huttball.
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huttball was designed with these abilities in mind. deal with it already.
Operatives clearly weren't part of this design.
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You are right i am clipping AB but having backstab earlier in the roation means i kill the target faster so missing a few ticks of acid blade isnt that big a deal.
Now if its a geared jug thats gonna last longer than my stuns then ye swapping to a bit later would be a good way to go.
Who cares what rotation you use on baddies. Good players are still going to be alive even after an optimal rotation where EVERYTHING crits.
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Yeh i usually open up with:
Acid blade > hidden > laceration > Debilitate > Acid blade > backstab > shiv > laceration
Usually dead at this point (or earlier
) if not they are running in that case u wanna frag or explosive probe.You're clipping your acid blade dot. The optimal rotation is Hidden, lacerate, debilitate, shiv, explosve probe, acid blade backstab. You can swap shiv with lacerate it you want, it really doesn't matter. I just like to lacerate first on the off chance that I get a collateral strike proc.
Also, if you think they will get away before you can backstab, you can switch backstab and explosive probe.
The main point here is don't clip the acid blade dot, it does a ton of damage. Also, be sure to use explosive probe, it does a ton of damage as well.
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Yes let melees have 100% uptime please. It's so unfair they can get kited.
When ranged are allowed to do the same damage as melee, you bet your *** they better have 100% uptime. Interrupts don't lock out entire schools and plenty of ranged dps specs don't rely on cast abilities.
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The class desperately needs some Huttball utility. Totally useless class in Huttball and just serves as pinball fodder for everyone else. A simple knockback would do, gap closer would be even better.
Shadowstep. All current operative gap closers are 10m or less. A 30 yard shadowstep on a 20-30 second cooldown (similar to warrior charge) would do wonders for operatives in huttball.
) if not they are running in that case u wanna frag or explosive probe.
Must Read: Surge nerf is huge (real data inside)
in Scoundrel / Operative
Posted
Maybe so, but the longer the fight goes on, the longer range has to dominate due to kiting. Operatives have no gap closer and therefore if they can't kill you ASAP, they lose. Once you are > 10m, the operative loses. Without the initial burst, operative's pitiful ranged damage isn't enough to finish people off.
Also, I'm pretty sure sorc shields can't crit and therefore received a significant buff this patch.