TheSwamper
-
Posts
392 -
Joined
Content Type
Forums
Blogs
Events
Articles
Downloads
Gallery
Posts posted by TheSwamper
-
-
Its the fault of the ADD riddle xboxers that cannot deal with people.
Too bad we can't flag them as such in game and select the option: [Don't group with window lickers] in preference.
This is the kind of poster I was referring to earlier. I'm 50 this year, and I've never owned an Xbox or taken Ritalin.
I've raided. Plenty. Raiding is a lot of things I could mention, but, for me, it's simply NOT FUN. I do not enjoy it. Is it so difficult to accept that other players might feel the same way?
This game, like almost every MMO, lets you progress by soloing and grouping for levels 1 to 49. Why is it so unreasonable to ask for the game to continue to allow both methods for endgame progress?
-
Content takes time to development, even more so when it’s all voice over.
But, if you put in a raid content, that’s 8-16 people in TOR (up to 72 people in EQ, 24 people in COH, etc…) that have to redo, and redo, and redo the content, to beat the encounter, to see the drop they want actually drop, to actually win the roll on ONE of the items you want.
So, back to the design, by making raids, you are essentially repeating a treadmill of gear. Thing is, treadmills are applicable at all levels of play. Don’t raid? You have a lesser treadmill of Heroics. Don’t group? You have a minor treadmill of (insert solo activity here, say, ship, killing for drops, killing for cash for the GTN to buy stuff, etc…).
So, treadmills are part of the “waiting game” between actual content release. And, by making a treadmill that is designed for 8-16 people, it’s more efficient than a treadmill for one person.
But a soloable version would have the exact same treadmill mechanics. And if 8-16 soloers did that instance for every 1 raid group that did it, then the content design is no less efficient. In fact, if more than 16 soloers did that instance for every 1 raid group, then solo design is actually a more efficient use of developer's time.
I think devs are stuck in a rut of a sort. Then envision these idealistic raids where everyone bands up within 3 minutes and gets along and works happily together and has some laughs etc. The reality is, few raids are like that.
And y'know what, it doesn't really matter. There are many, many people on here saying they don't like raiding and want a soloable alternative. If those people don't eventually get what they want, they'll take their money elsewhere.
It's folly to ignore them as a method of persuading us that the dev way is more fun. Most of us aren't new to the MMO game, we've raided in the past, and we're well aware of what we like. Raiding isn't it.
Not a one of us is suggesting getting rid of raiding, just continue to offer solo and group content the same way you did from 1-49.
-
If they need to down the servers for a while, fine.
But don't say "See the forums for details" and then have no details on the forums. That is a completely avoidable annoyance.
-
Lol. This discussion is pointless. If you hate grouping then don´t group. If you like grouping then group. It´s that simple.
It's not that simple, because endgame character advancement is directly tied into grouping.
So, for those who don't/can't raid, their endgame options are:
1. Be forever in sub-optimal gear. This isn't just a question of stats, it's a limitation on character advancement. In other words, the character can only go so far without being required into a style of play they don't enjoy, or can't participate in.
2. Play in a style that's not preferable. Many people dislike grouping (some can't due to RL commitments). So, solely because of Bioware's game design choices, these players must now play a style of gaming they'd rather not if they want to continue to progress their character.
3. Quit. Simply put, this game is raid or die. I can state with assurance that there are many players who would sooner quit then jump onto the raiding treadmill.
So, no, it's not simple. It could be, if Bioware offered a soloable alternative to endgame progression. If they did, then grouping or not grouping would simply be a matter of choice, which is exactly what it should be.
-
Personally I think this is a MMO and grouping should be encouraged as much as possible.
Fine.
For leveling
- make grouping the fastest way to level.
For endgame
- Make grouping the fastest way to acquire gear.
- Make grouping the easiest way to acquire gear.
Just don't make it the only way.
Not one soloer here is saying 'don't have any group content for endgame progression'.
We're saying 'don't have only group content for endgame progression.'
-
You can read this thread and you just know this game wont last.
Well, it would certainly help if Bioware listened to the many people on here asking for soloable endgame content. Virtually every MMO I ever quit was because endgame came down to raid or die.
-
No matter how many autonomous pets you have a minimal control over to take on content it is still soloing.
Yes, of course it's still soloing. My point was that one-person endgame instances are certainly possible, which was what another poster suggested was not.
Whether you agree such content should be created or not, it is irrefutable that there are many players who would very much enjoy a path other than raiding for endgame character progression. It IS very much doable, and the demand for such content is very clear.
Now, perhaps you're someone like III-III who feels that it should not be done, fine, that's your opinion. But it's factual for me to say that many people want it and it can be done.
The debate, at this point, is simply about the 'should.' For anyone still asking 'why', well, they are just being intentionally blind to the obvious demand.
-
I don't see any game ever creating 11+ iterations of a tier of raid content, 8 of which are single player versions, exquisitely tuned to provide the maximum challenge for each of the 8 advanced classes. What do you see as a viable alternative?
This individual tuning is utterly unnecessary, particularly in SWTOR.
How does a raid work? Well, a bunch of people gather together, go inside, kill trash, try to defeat the bosses, and hope for drops that are upgrades. They may or may not kill the boss, and they may or may not get upgrades. Then, they wait until the lockout timer resets and try again.
Solo versions would be exactly the same. Perhaps a lower percentage chance, but still reliant on the killing of the boss(es), the luck of the drop, and the lockout timers.
Progressive Endgame Progression. That is what MOST players want, and that is what is being offered only through raiding. That is the problem.
With SWTOR, each player has a companion who can fill any number of roles. All that needs to be done tuning-wise, is to make it so that one combo (healer/tank, tank/dps, healer/dps, etc) can get through the instance with a reasonable amount of challenge.
I guarantee that if one combo can do it, players will find ways to get it done with others. You wouldn't need multiple versions any more than you need multiple versions of raid instances to cover all the possible combinations there.
-
If the usage of sports implied group combat, I see your point.
However, again, the mentality of fundamentally changing the genre when one already exists for said demographic very much applies. That's the point of the analogy.
The part I disagree with is your assertion that asking for an alternate solo path of endgame progression is the equivalent of 'fundamentally changing the genre'. Virtually every MMO allows for soloing to level cap. It's not much of a reach to ask that progression be continuable in that method.
-
You can choose to pick it apart but the mentality of the analogy is far closer than you're willing/capable of acknowledging.
My point is there are many, many reasons to play an MMO besides "group up for combat". When posters make statements like yours, they imply it's the only reason to play an MMO, and that is far from true.
-
Some people prefer golf to football, too. Though, most golfers don't start playing football and demand the entire foundation of the sport be altered to be more like golf.
That's why there's golf...
Pretty poor analogy. The foundation of MMOs is much more than "group up for combat".
-
I don't think they're too big, but I do think there's too many walls, mountains, forcing players onto too few paths.
-
I can say that most of my raiding time has not been in guilds like this. And I've been raiding a long time, since the good old EQ days back in 95. It was only when I gave up "hardcore" raiding to hang out with friends that I stumbled into the guild I'm with now. Funny thing is, we down content as easily as any guild I've ever been with and we have a blast doing it. We also spend just as much time playing other games together, BF3, ME3 multiplayer, LFD2, etc... as we do raiding most weeks. I'm guessing it's probably not the norm for most people, but those types of guilds are out there. It just takes finding like minded people, which admittedly can be hard to do.
I think this is exactly what Bioware (and every other MMO dev) hopes will happen with all players; they find like-minded individuals, form friendships, and continue to play and pay.
The reality is that this doesn't happen often. By your own admission, this is a difficult thing to do. Is this really what we have to do in order to enjoy the game to it's fullest? Try very hard and get lucky with finding just the right people?
I think it's an idealistic pipe dream for a developer to expect that this will happen to most players. Better is to get on the reality wagon and give everyone the kind of content they want, instead of this archaic 'you must raid at endgame to progress' funnel.
-
Back in early days of EQ2 (havent played Eq1) u had to group to gain a level.
Time will show the error of their ways.
And it did. And this is why no recent MMO requires grouping to level.
-
Hey The Swamper YES I DO! I played The Realm and UO. Both games I played to group with people even though both games did not really know how the games were going to turn out. I have spoken with a UO Developer back in the day. They never thought EQ who ever become what it did with the raids and what not, they didnt think that it was possible that people wanted that content. Well Guess what, thats what the Genera became. And Even in UO Guess what they made Champion Fights where you could not solo because you needed to kill 100 or 500 mobs in less then a few minutes which could only be done by 10+ people. SO Yes I know where the Genera started and were it came from. Now take a seat because you really dont know who you are talking too.
Oh, I have a pretty good idea about your close minded, my way or the highway notions. Thankfully, most developers today don't have such a narrow viewpoint.
Honestly, it sounds to me like you lament what MMOs are today and would rather force others to play your way instead of accepting multiple options, which is what most people want today.
-
I will be able to play an MMO like it should be played.
This cracks me up.
Do you realize the earliest MMOs had NO raiding, and NO group-required content? Not a single quest.
And where are these MMOs laws, apparently cast in stone that say "MMOs must be all about forced grouping for combat"? What about the RPG part?
Do you feel that this MUST be true for EVERY MMO for all time? And that any notion to design even ONE MMO any other way is somehow sacrilegious to the immutable laws of MMOs?
-
Why do people still send paper letters when email is so much faster?
-
People bought a MMO. Grouping is not supposed to be optional.
Imagine this:
1. Not one single quest is soloable in the game, none.
2. Every quest in the game is soloable, all of them.
Which version will sell more subs? If you think it's the first one, you're massively misinformed about the state of the genre.
-
I quite enjoyed DDO 1-10 (1-12 depending on class) and disliked it after that. I LOVED City of Heroes for the fact that, until the changes of the last couple of updates, it was actually possible to get BEST IN SLOT gear by soloing. And yet, grouping was very common.
DDO - quit, because endgame required grouping
EQ - quit, because endgame required grouping
WOW - quit, because endgame required grouping
COH - quit, once endgame required grouping
and on, and on, and on....
Some day, a developer is going to have the light-bulb go off in his head that if he allowed endgame solo progression, with long lockout timers and small percentage chances to drop desired loot, he'll make a frigging fortune.
When I first read about this game, and it's companions, I thought that developer was here. Once again though, they looked through Wow-tinted glasses and gave us the same old raid treadmill. I read about the new content coming down the pipeline and it just depresses me.
Keep the raiding game, but for the love of Yoda, Bioware, just give us an longer, alternate, solo path to the SAME GEAR. I'll sub for 2 years minimum. I won't be the only one.
-
Well, I never pvp. So as far as I'm concerned, ANY development time spent on pvp is utterly wasted. What do you think, OP?
*Note, while it's true I never pvp, I don't really feel this way, just trying to make a point.
-
Think this through from Bioware's perspective. Give them a reason to do this other than simply "I want this feature."
I'll offer one. Any MMO that I played past the trial, I wound up quitting primarily because there was no method of meaningful solo endgame progression. Every one of them. I won't invent numbers, but I guarantee there are plenty of players out there who feel as I do.
I don't want it easy or fast; add in timer lockouts, add in the same loot chances, nothing more or less. Heck, let raiding be a faster method of earning this gear, just don't make it the ONLY method.
-
Waiting...
People have been conditioned to get what they want when they want it. Having to wait for another person to log in or get to the group is an imposition to them. Just another side effect of the instant gratification society...
This isn't like waiting in line in a grocery store or a bank. In an MMO, you are not only paying for time, you may have a limited window in which to play. If your choices are spam and hope or solo and get something done, why is the second choice wrong?
-
I understand that there is a portion of the community that wants this, and I've even seen similar requests in other MMO's as well. However, most of these players seem to have this expectation that the loot dropped in these "solo" missions/quests should be comparable to end-game raiding gear.
You can claim to be the special-snowflake that "just wants to see the content" all you want, but I've seen enough evidence from these players in WoW complain about the loot in the LFR to realize that "wanting to see content" wears off after the first time through
Raiders don't do it 'just to see the content either'.
In a heavy gear-based game, like most MMOs are, better gear is the only meaningful method of progression, once you stop getting levels. By locking that better/better/best gear away behind raids, it is limiting those methods.
It's not just a question of getting more gear for it's own sake, or even to be able to handle the tougher content, it's a matter of progressing your character to the best they can be. The game offers two parallel paths, one solo and one group to get from levels 1 to 50, and then one path comes to an abrupt end.
Why not just have both paths continue, and let each player choose their preference?
-
Thanks, Sephendrine, for saying it so eloquently.
I don't understand why some people feels it is some sort of law cast in stone that ALL MMOs (like, every single one) for all time must only allow group content for meaningful endgame progression.
Do you really think it would be so detrimental to the entire MMO genre that a few of them could allow for an alternate solo path?
Too much rest points!!!
in General Discussion
Posted
I'm on my 6th alt and I won't even go to a planet now unless I'm at least 2 levels above it's minimum, preferably 3.
I much prefer the faster pace, and there's soooooo many trash mobs to kill in this game.