True, forgot about the replacement and the stance bonus. Even better.

You have no idea what balance is obviously. Sins, Sorcs, PTs are OP, Juggs are comparatively well balanced. You're looking at it in the completely wrong way. If you have a hard time performing as an Op, you need to go over to the forums and L2P.

Veng has a free smash. Bioware just doesn't like maras.

I've been complaining on the forums about class balance a lot recently, and I wanted to take a more positive direction and share my thoughts about why Operatives/Scoundrels are the most balanced class in the game, and how the things that make them great can be applied to other classes. Please don't respond to this thread with "Lol, Bioware won't listen". I wanted to show that Bioware has done balancing well, and say why. 1. Loyal to the flavor of the class. When you play an operative/scoundrel, you feel like a stealthy rogue using dirty tricks to get ahead. The two things that keep people in SWTOR despite the horrible dev track record are enjoying the flavor of their class, and loving Star Wars. Keep it this way. 2. All specs do what they're supposed to. The AoE heavy HoT spec gives a lot of AoE healing, and has great HoTs. The stealthy burst spec deals high stealthy burst. The delayed burst DoT spec has a great feeling of delayed gratification when attacking a target. All three specs have a role to play, while not performing well at all things. Each has a distinct playstyle that players find enjoyable, there is no "generic DoT spec". 3. The defensives are versatile, but not excessive. As an operative, you have a purge/dodge skill, the option of a heroic 20% DR skill, a medium/low CD absorb, HoTs, Conc roll, and combat stealth. This gives you a good toolkit to deal with different threats, but you have to use them situationally and skillfully. There is no "I win" button for this class (see: dark stability, force barrier, enraged defense). 4. The class has counters. The class is vulnerable to F/T damage and roots. It has options to fight such specs, but the operative would have to demonstrate superior skill to beat a good counter class. 5. The class requires and rewards skill. As an operative, it is very important to not only know all of your abilities, but the abilities of other classes as well. Conc roll requires solid situational awareness and inter-class knowledge, you must know how to LoS and heal up, your CCs must be used situationally. There is no way to faceroll and win against a decent opponent (see: Jugg, AP PT). You feel like you master the class over time, and get a feeling of satisfaction when you defeat a counter class (sorc) 6. The utilities are good on the whole. While there are some useless utilities (removing cost from CC), there are solid options in all three tiers. Some utilities are used much more heavily than others, but there are still important choices to be made, especially in the heroic tier. There is a good feeling of progression as you move up the tree: you begin with move speed and DR, go into rootbreaks and energy management, and end with major DCD buffs. 7. The community enjoys and appreciates the class as a whole. You're never going to see zero complaints from an MMO community. But look through the operative forums, you will see people asking for help, wondering how to best use their skills to their fullest potential, how they should build it. You will not see very much "Bioware plz fix", and when you do there will be overwhelming disagreement. People support the class, and the atmosphere is generally very positive. You can even see other classes defending the current state of affairs, and Operatives/Scoundrels will even help other classes who ask for help on defeating operatives. This positive community lets new players learn, and grows the population. If you apply these lesson to your other classes, nerfing and buffing as needed, you will see your community become far less toxic, and the population increase. That means more $$$ Bioware, so get on it.

Rotational snares are one of the worst mechanics in the entire game. CC should be situational, not something you get for free. If a Lightning sorc opens on a jugg or mara with charge on CD, it's over. You simply cannot reach the sorc. And if you do, he can speed away and begin again. It's a joke. I'd give lightning its damage back and then some if those garbage snares were removed.

Depends on what you want, all sin specs are troll in PvP. Darkness cannot die with healing support. Deception has loco control. Hatred does great pressure.

Reposting my change because it got missed. Berzerk applies predation only to the caster, additionally allows fury stacks to be gained during berzerk. This fixes everything needed. Mobility is solved, damage is solved, no scary fundamental changes like taking something off of the fury system. This is the only fundamental change needed. Yes, the DCDs are weak, and utilities are garbage, but this ONE CHANGE would solve the most dire issues.

Skank tanking is any time you take the role of a tank when you aren't tank spec. Tank spec+DPS gear+shield is considered "normal" tanking. In a 3DPS 1 healer match, a guardian can switch to tank stance to guard a healer, all but guaranteeing a win against equally skilled opponents. This can be done in the middle of a fight by switching stances, or by switching into a shield+tank gear in between rounds for additional "tank" effectiveness. Vengeance is the sustained spec, and rage is the burst one. If you want to actually kill a healer (good luck against one who isn't brain dead) go rage. Wait until he's around 70% health and open up, good crits can kill him along with a force choke and an interrupt. Soloing a good healer is a non-starter for almost any class.

What if all the merc/mandos creating pages of deafening whining were all just in the wrong cylinder the whole time... Whoa.

Comparing "ranged" classes. Operative/scoundrel: TA/UH is not random, except for healing. Period. You just need more familiarity with the class to get a feel for it. That said, it isn't ranged. Leth is 10m at best, with semi-frequent dips into 4m. Sniper/slinger: Turret class. If your WASD keys are broken, here you go. Excellent in PvE and group ranked, weak in yolo ranked and regs due to crappy mobility. You'd think with 20sec CC immunity and stealth detection they'd be good node guards, but they lack the defensives to survive a good stealth burst. Sorc/Sage: Pretty OP in PvP, less so in PvE. Lightning/TK has absurd kiting capability and tons of rotational snares (Bioware plz nerf). Madness has self-healing and DoT spread. Both have two lives. Healers great in PvE and PvP. Merc/Mando: OP in PvE, weak in ranked PvP. Put forth absurd healing and DPS numbers in PvE, while ignoring many mechanics and staying at range. In PvP can kite and put up great numbers, but are weak against focus (if you read merc forums, the whining will deafen and confuse you). TL;DR for both PvP and PvE ranged, you have options. If you don't do ranked, Mercs are god-tier. If you aren't a DPS whore, Sorcs are too. Snipers can be fun if you enjoy the playstyle. Ops aren't really ranged.

A Op healer surviving your damage is understandable, and intentional. If HPS doesn't exceed DPS there's no reason to have heals. That said, if an Op healer actually kills you from full health you are one of the worst players in the entire game. Op healers have basically zero damage. Backstab+shiv+OS spam is all they have. L2P

The less preferred, but still good change to the fury system. Being forced to choose between getting to your target and doing meaningful damage should not happen. Also, tying mobility to DCDs is wrong (this actually applies to juggs too).

Hi there FoTM reroller! I'm a normal SWTOR player. We have "class loyalty". Say it slowly! "Claaaaasss loooyallty". It means that we care about enjoying ourselves instead of taking the easiest way to win every time. So when our class it crappy, we don't hop out to the easiest class to compensate for our utter lack of skill and knowledge. In a game with class-specific abilities, there's only so much "countering" you can do. So stop lying to yourself, because nobody is fooled. (Side note, are you a PT, Sorc, or sin?)

How to fix Marauders: Make obliterate baseline, replace it in Fury with a smash reskin w/ additional damage (smash is a joke currently, no need to return to 2.x smash monkeys but still). Berzerk now applies predation, but only to yourself. Additionally you can gain fury stacks during berzerk. Defensive forms is baseline, defensive roll is moved to skillfull. Maiming reach is baseline, inescapable is moved to skillfull. Full heroic utility rework. Bam, there we go Bioware. Too bad we're over-performing according to your win metrics.

I laughed, and then I cried.

Teamwork plays a role, sure. But in regs, teamwork is a call or two at best. In ranked, juggs can do okay: you're better off bringing FoTM. Juggs, along with Ops, are extremely well balanced compared to the rest of the ACs. And Juggs are getting BUFFED despite this. Don't complain.

For Tanking: In PvP? Assassins are weaker than the other tanks in certain WZs. PTs are troll in huttball, and Juggs are even worse in Queshball. But on node based maps, sin tanks are beastly. With healing support it is almost impossible to die. In PvE? From my understanding all three tanks work fine. PTs are great for the fights where there's constant slows (Bioware loves anti-melee stuff). Sins bring a lot more group utility than either. Juggs are perfectly fine, and their defenses work well against the spikes that are common in current HM content. For DPS: In PvP? Vengeance is a troll spec. Skill optional. The fact that unstoppable is getting spread out will make rage one as well. You have so much survivability that you can wade into any situation with zero forethought whatsoever. When my seven year old, Star Wars lovin cousin asked to try the game, I knew exactly what class to hand him. Literally arranged my damage abilities in a line, and he got second in the WZ on his first try. In PvE? Jugg DPS is fine. A group turning you away for a normal run are being snobs, or have bad healers. All melee is discouraged, but that's not a jugg issue. If anything, they're better equipped than say, Conc Ops, Maras, or post-nerf Hatred sins. Rather then telling you to L2P I'll say this: If you read the tooltips on your skills, you should not have an issue. The specs getting those huge duration slows are exceedingly uncommon, and will remain so. Read a guide or two. If you can't succeed as a Jugg, it isn't the class's fault.

Bioware's design team is a *********** disgrace. At least when people ask for new WZs and things like that you can throw out "EA wouldn't want to spend the money". PvP players are the easiest subset of the community to satisfy, and you've failed at even that. We don't need assloads of new content. Try implementing any of the LITERALLY THOUSANDS of changes that have been spoon fed to you for months. Don't choose the worst possible metrics, and interpret them without a single measure of common sense or logic. PLAY YOUR OWN *********** GAME FOR A CHANGE. I'm unsubbing because of this post. Money is probably the only way to get through to you morons, I'm gonna try it. (So much rage... I should roll a jugg. )

I think the reason you never see it is because most maras (who are still with the class despite Bioware's incalculable idiocy) are pretty savvy within the game, and they know that Rage juggs are identical, but with a much better defensive arsenal. And yes, interceptor is a crappy utility. Besides unbound and occasionally expunging camo, we have awful heroic utilities. Minor cooldown changes? A short root? A small extension to an ability with a 3min CD? Out of combat only abilities? Minor self heals on a 3min CD? All check.

Since we're on the topic of leth buffs: The whole point of taking leth of conc, is you trade the speed of your burst for more range and less positioning. However, the extra range is currently questionable and the setup time is excessive. Buff burst slightly, and then there are two options: 1. Reduce setup time by making cor grenade apply cor dart. I'm not in favor of this personally. 2. Give leth a 15m range for cor assault and toxic blast. This would make it a mid range spec, and differentiate it more from the other DoT specs in the game. Thoughts?

Most of the "gain resource when X" don't include slows, only stuns/mezzes/knockbacks/roots. That said, 4+1+2 is oftentimes a great choice, as the Masterful talents can be pretty overwhelming. Switching out expunging camo for another utility is something I've experimented with recently. I'm currently running: Defensive Forms Overwhelm Inexorable Maiming Reach Defensive Roll Phantom Unbound I'm finding the free resource a better move than the purge, along with the 10m slow/healing debuff (really useful to nuke sages). I find I have predation ready to break a root if I need to camo out. Update: I've given Fury a shot and really loved it, even without the proposed changes! If you take "Inexorable" I feel that berzerk is no longer needed, putting it even with carnage. Because of obliterate, staying on target within 10m is easier, so maiming reach is not as useful. Going to experiment more as I go.

Maras would like a word with you mercs. At least you're great in PvE. Perspective, kids. Being underpowered in arenas doesn't mean you should replace the air with tears.

Regarding non-FS vs. FS Equally skilled, and in a fair fight, non-FS will always lose. Therefore avoid fair fights, or fight those weaker than you. (Things that aren't fair: Flamethrowers, ambushes, poison, outnumbering your enemy, etc.)

Putting it out there to allow /votekick in warzones. Here's a sampling of the grade-A douches I've had to deal with over just today's matches. Someone who abused everyone in chat who wasn't playing a FoTM class/spec Someone who insisted tanks have no purpose in WZs, and refused to heal any tanks Someone who spent the entire match hitting on another person who had a female avatar FIVE different people in full 186s THREE different people in full 192s And one sorcerer who did more healing then me People do this kind of stuff because they know they can get away with it. If you aren't going to balance PvP properly (Yay, more sin buffs!) you can at least not force us to play with this wide assortment of ******s. Additionally, when some classes are immediately kicked from arenas, the resulting unsubs could put the horrible state of things into perspective.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Juggs are the ez mode class, always have been. They are meant for those who don't know what tactics are. They can fight anyone, wade into a massive group of enemies, and be fine. Bioware buffs them because then more morons will succeed and subscribe. Yes, some juggs are talented and use the class more but they're an extreme minority.