I'm so chill, Im Frosty. But that's beside the point. I am well aware that this is being fixed in 2.0 (Grats to Bioware for making this change). But the point of the OP was that SWTOR is not P2W. I disagree. It has been since the introduction of the Cartel Market. And will continue to be until 2.0 rolls out. I have no problems with 99% of the CM, save and except the current introduction of the REP (But that is a topic for another thread). People are free to purchase what they want off the market and more power to them for helping to support this great game. I don't think we should be able to craft the top gear in the game, (YEAH that's being fixed) I personally am against the top few being able to be crafted. (But that is just an opinion) People keep missing the point in that if it doesn't involve in game activity to level or gear up then you can Pay2WIN. People keep saying .... I grind and make looooots of credits in game and buy the top tier gear. RIGHT you PLAYED to do it. Ohh, but I craft and got tons of credits from crafting top tier mods. RIGHT you used an in game mechanic, PLAYED, to do it. Oh....but I spend 3 months of subbing and grinded OPS to get it. RIGHT ... you PLAYED to get it.. If you played the GTN and made you millions that way.......YOU PLAYED to get it. I, and this I guess is where we need to agree to disagree, believe that if you can take real world dollars and are able to get Top Tier gear without being in the game except to: 1) List the Packs you got on the GTN 2) Open mail to receive you credits 3) Buy top tier stuff off the GTN. Just because the current way of doing this is 3 steps instead of 1. Doesn't nullify the end result. I could have a L10 character, or less if I made it off starter planet onto fleet, with a full set of BIS gear waiting in my Cargo Hold. Without having done a FP, Daily or OPS.

Again the big difference is you PLAYED to get your gear. Not PAID. I expect someone that has been here longer than me and worked to get his gear to have better gear than me. What I dont expect is if I PLAYED to get my gear for someone one that started on Friday. Used ILUM boost while avail and gets to 50 by Sunday. Buys packs, sells packs, buys geat and is full BIS on Monday.

This is absolutely Pay2Win. If I can do something that would require weeks of completing content, running OPS. Simply by a two three step process using real life cash. So I play game and get to L50 and get my Free Tionese set in game. Is someone really saying that YOU in full L27 gear have no statistical advantage over me in Tionese?

^^^ this x 10

Excellent suggestion. Implementing a "major new gamplay system" that can only reasonably be completed by spending real $$ is just wrong.

The debate was lost by you before it even began...as the developers have called it a Major New Gameplay System. I know now the retort will be that Gameplays System does not equal content. IF the Developers wish to make this into a vast new system introduced into the game that all players should partake in. The Developers intend for this to be content that the playing community should get involved in. You are just trying to define it otherwise....me I believe the Devs. Implementing a "major new gamplay system" that can only reasonably be completed by spending real $$ is just wrong.

The funny thing is that this doesn't affect me. I make enough money that I probably will be able to complete my REP in hopefully the 5 months that we have to get it. I play the game a lot and am able to GRIND out all my Dailys on the 2 50's that I have. I could be wrong but I don't think that the average person has the time that I do to GRIND out enough Credits to complete this. That is why I think this is wrong. For all the other REPS in this game most people would be able to get them done in about a month or two (THIS IS FOR A REP - NOT MAX GEAR). I still don't think that the average person will be able to do complete this. So far I am at Friend and have now bought around 20 crates. I have used almost all the credits I make ... not sure what the average cost has been. Should have kept track. I started out buying them at 250,000, lucky at the start I had a surplus of coins and grabbed 10 in the first two days. The prices have been steadily climbing and the have been holding steady at 400,000 for the last 4 days. Almost all of my credits is currently being spent on this 1 small aspect of the game. With the estimate of 60 more packs....ARRGHH my head hurts just thinking about it. I will max this rep. But I'm sure it will be my last as I will not GRIND forever just to fill this never ending REP. I have to laugh to as in the 20 packs I have opened I still haven't gotten a certificate. (Bad RNG I guess - or EAWare is reading this thread. lol) Implementing a "major new gamplay system" that can only reasonably be completed by spending real $$ is just wrong.

So no one in this games tries to complete all aspects of the game. No one tries to obtain all the codexes, titles, mounts, pets .. etc. Everybody plays this game for their own reasons. Some people solely PvP, some people high end RAID, some people RP, some collect fluff. As it used to stand, even with the CM, everyone could successfully do what they wanted. A fluff collector would still not have to spend $$. Players that wanted to could buy things off the CM and eventually even the fluff eventually made it to the GTN. So those collectors, completionists could still try and play the game the whey they wanted to play it. No one's choice of how they want to play the game is more right or more wrong. What is wrong is that to complete this part of the new exciting gameplay system (devs words not mine) you have to spend real world $$ to reasonably expect to be able to complete it. Hey I have an idea. For the next release in 2.0 they should create a new CARTEL REP system. 1) First you have to get to Legendary in the Rep for this new faction. 2) Then you need to access the REP vendor and purchase a key. (Must have Legendary to use) 3) This key costs 10 certificates to purchase. 4) The key will unlock the gate to allow you to access the new Scum and Villany Operation. (you can send a cut of all profits made to this toon..plze and thx) I RAID and I would find this totally unacceptable. I am also a casual PvP player and would find it unacceptable if they tied any aspect of PvP play to real world $$. So why is it acceptable to tie a new gameplay system to real world $$. Those that don't raid would say, hey if you don't want to pony up the $$ then just don't do it - you could use your monthy CC stipend to eventually gain access or even ... just keep grinding out the credits and maybe one day you'll have enough rep to do it.. All unacceptable answers. Implementing a "major new gamplay system" that can only reasonably be completed by spending real $$ is just wrong.

No I get it, it appears you don't, IMHO. I don't care how people get rich IN GAME that's what this is all about. If people could do things IN GAME then they would be OK with the REP. I'm OK with people making millions of dollars on crafting things that people want. Be it GTN, OPS, DAILYS, farming mobs and chests - its done within the scope of PLAYING the game. That is the MAIN problem with this. To reasonably be able to complete this you will almost have to spend MOOAAR real life cash at it. Again let's dispense the fact that people say you can get the REP in game. The devs have repeatedly said that each cycle of packs will have it's own reputation bar. Every 5 or so months to complete this aspect of the gaming system you must get 70,000 Rep to become Legend. I'll be nice and give the distribution rate at 30% each for purple, blue and green. (And we know that the drop rates are lower on purple and higher on greens). To get the required rep you would need to purchase 90 packs. At the current credit rate for packs at 400,000 you would need 36,000,000 credits. In 5 months (Maybe longer if the packs remain on the GTN, and I hope that this is the case) the packs are gone from the CTM. You would have to hope that some RICH guy was smart enough to hoard a few cargo holds and then we can keep buying them off the GTN. Can' wait to see what prices on the GTN are at that point. And the price of the Packs is holding at 400,000 credits on The Shadowlands. The amount of credits required to get this REP in game is astronomical and I don't know if its feasible for people to get this. Yes remotely possible, but not practically feasible. (I could walk, row around the earth too - might take me a while but YOU CAN do it). The other option you have as a subscriber is to use you monthly Cartel Coin stipend. At 700 you can buy 2 packs a month. So no probs, I can look to completing this new Gaming System aspect in 35 months (Hmm but in 5 months they are no longer for same on the CM). Yeah 3 years. NOW there is a great method to get you to sub longer. LOL. And then of coarse everybody says to the above - YOU just want in NOW, give me MOAR, I want it free. That is not the case. I would like the possibility of obtaining this over the course of the packs being available on the CTM (Hopefully 5 -months). Even if it took me 5 months (and I'm sure there will be some TROLL) that will tell me that I could easily make 2 million a day so should be able to get this done in a month. I look forward to spending the next 3 months grinding out credits so that I can try to make LEGEND status. And yes I am a completionist, on my main toon. I have done everything that I possible can. I have all the datacrons, all the codexes (that aren't bugged), all my planets are explored, working on recipes for Synthweaving ..etc etc. Now all I can look forward to .... forever......is trying to gain enough credits to max out the rep for EACH on the new $$$$$$ REP grinds. Possibly we could drop it so that we could grind for 3 months and get this done...I don't mind working for a reward, and I don't want it free, I just want to be able to be able to reasonable obtain this. If it was just ONE reputation, then I know that over the course of the next 7-12 months I would be able to blow enough credits and CC coins to eventually max out. As it is, to complete this I would need to just work on this REP, and then the NEXT one and then THE NEXT ............................ YEAH..... I bet you did Implementing a "major new gamplay system" that can only reasonably be completed by spending real $$ is just wrong.

Lies!!!!!I It is a fact that I can buy the CM packs from the store. It is a fact that I can sell the packs on the GTN (currectly lowest price is 400, 000 credits) It is a fact that I can then take the credits from selling the packs and buy the BIS items on the GTN. I know that the three step process for getting the best gear is a complex issue for some. I believe that if you could buy the items directly from the CM, like the crystals and ship components, people may be a bit more upset. I look forward to 2.0 when at least yoy will still have to Raid to get BIS. Congrats to Bioware for making this change. So then you can only buy the 2nd tier armor, mods, etc.

Except for the fact that even the developers call the Reputation system a new GAMEPLAY system. http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20130212 This update also includes the introduction of a major new gameplay system: “Reputation”. All players will have a Reputation with several organizations throughout the universe. Completing missions for members of these organizations will allow players to advance their Reputation. Crossing certain Reputation thresholds will grant the player access to new titles and gear found on Reputation vendors.

No he wont as after he has bought 5 months of packs the new Cartel packs arrive with a new Reputation bar. So he will have made it 20% of the way to Legend before having to start all over again. I could accept 1 reputation bar as eventually, 1.5 years, I maybe could fill it.

You are kidding right. You are missing one vitally important step. Pay for subscription. You play the game for weeks to max level. Then weeks to Raid. Then you get best gear. = PLAY2WIN Not buy CM packs, sell packs, get best gear = PAY2WIN.

No one is trying to redefine the fact that this game is already Pay2Win. As long as you can convert items purchased in the CM into in game credits its P2W. I can buy a pack of 24 crates. Sell them - currently on Shadowlands 400,000 (Geez they aren't declining in price as people said they would earlier - must be a big demand to get REP). That nets you a sweet - 9,600, 000. . I can take a brand new toon. and equip him in purples all the way up to L50. And then at L50 still probably have enough credits left over to buy all L27 Armour, Mods and ENH. If not I could just slap down another $80 and buy what I still need to get the TOP level gear in this game. If this isn't pay to win, I don't know what is. Just because I can't directly buy L27 gear directly off the CM doesn't mean its not P2W. The OP and Main Complaint in this thread is about the direction that EAware is taking with SWTOR. 1) At launch we had 99.9% accessible content for subscribers. Yes we know if you bought the CE edition you got a few extra things. EVERY game out there has those types of promotions. We know it and its an accepted practice. 2) SWTOR switches to a F2P model and the specifically stated (See Developers Update 11.07.2012 Developer Update:Free to Play Option ) 3) With each introduction of the Packs the amount of in game fluff has gone from 99.9 % for subscribers to now its 80-90% CM and 10-20% subscribers. You can still buy the items with in game credits on the GTN and most people still don't have too much of a problem. We realize that to keep this game going they needed to get some cash. And they found a way to do it. 4) They have overstepped their bounds when they incorporated the CM with already established gameplay mechanics within the REPUTATION system. Every 5-6 months, with a new Cartel Market shipment of packs, you will have to PAY2REP a new faction. So with now 80 packs to buy on the GTN to get max rep. At todays price of 400,000 credits it will cost a subscriber approx. 32,000,00 in game credits. This is at a minimum cause assuming that you get mostly purple rep tokens. Increase the cost to over double, triple is you have a miserable drop rate. OH - and you have to do this in the next 5-6 months cause we can't guarantee that the packs will be available. NO OTHER GAMING COMMUNITY FORCES YOU TO PAY4REP. If they want to REWARD their loyal cash cows - then reward them. Give them free boxes, A guarantee of X number of certificates for every hypercrate they purchase, whatever you want - REMOVE the REPUTATION, gaming aspect .........PERIOD. 5) This will further be further be implemented in 2.0 with the introduction of Legacy ACHIEVMENTS - another GAMING aspect. There are many achievement that will be easier if you P2W. You can always buy these off the GTN and this is an acceptable alternative. Oh yeah and you get - 0 points for having the Minimech CE pet. (Guess you already have their money - and cant get them to pony up some more, lol) No one in this entire thread has ever said I want It now, give me MOAR as some have said. There are hundreds that say this system is deplorable. There are a staunch < 10 that say this is great, who cares stop whining. All the subscribers community wants is the ability, or even the remote possiblilty, of being able to obtain this through some gaming mechanic. They want to be be able, if they choose, complete their reputation for this faction without having to spend REAL $$ or millions of in game credits. (It would be cheaper for me to just use my credits to get my toon a full L27 gear set that to get this REP done) The grind for REP Gree takes approx. 4 weeks to reach (and I had enough rep tokens the first week, just had to wait for the weekly gate to open) to complete. NO ONE without spending real life CASH will be able to reach this new REPUTATION in 4 weeks, or probably even 5 months without some serious daily grinding just for this one aspect of the game. Nevermind HM, OPS or all the other aspects of the game that we are supposed to be working on to enjoy our gaming.. (And yes I know you get Credits in those as well). This is a very sad direction that EAware is taking - DO NOT INCORPORATE any aspect of real word dollars into the established, or new ones you are going to conceive, elements of game play.

Don't know where you have been but you can buy the top end gear off the GTN. Not the shell but all the components that make up the top end Raid Gear can and have been purchased off the GTN. What's the diff, takes a two step route to buy the top end raid gear as soon as you hit fifty in a few days. Its been this way for a long time. THAT IS Pay2WIN. Without having stepped 1 foot in an OPS, RAID, or even a flashpoint. And I am glad that this is changing in 2.0. Raid to get top end gear.

There have been a lot of posts that the current Rep Grind that has been announced is not P2W. The fact of the matter is that since the introduction of the Cartel Market we have entered the P2W era. Not true you say. As long as I can buy something with rl money and convert it to in game credits I can purchase the best gear in game from my rl $$. Let’s take the following example. I want a great headpiece. Lets spend $80 and buy 11,000 Cartel Coins and buy a Hypercrate worth of the Enforce’s Contaband Pack. This will get me 24 Packs and still have 3656 in Cartel Coins left over. The packs are currently selling for $340,000 on the Shadowlands. IF I sell 5 of these over the next couple of days this will net me a cool $1,700,000 and I still have 19 packs remaining. So lets go to the GTN and see what stuff is currently selling for . Advanced Resolve Armouring 27 - 625,000 credits Advanced Aptitude Mod 27 - 444,000 credits Advanced Adept Enh - 440,000 credits Advanced Resolve Augment 22 - 40,000 credits For a Grand Total of 1,549,000 credits And I even have 151,000 credits left to go buy some other fluff pets or fancy outfits. And don’t forget I still have 19 packs remaining to sell. If this isn’t P2W I don’t know what is. The problem that I, and it would appear many others have, is that with the introduction of the Gree Event the Developers have added a new gameplay system. From the Developer Blogs – 02.12.2013 ” With the introduction of the current Reputation the main way of gaining this reputation is by using rl money and buying the Packs of the Cartel Market. And what else did they say – from Blog 03.13.2013 So what I read from this is that you have only a few weeks to gain your reputation as each new Shipment will have its own Reputation Track. And they we start the rl $$ sink yet again to buy the new packs to gain the new Reputaion that you WILL NOT be able to advance with in game credits or buying a pack a month with the monthly alotment of Cartel Coins. The only way you will be able to advance this GAMPLAY feature is by spending rl $$. I personally have no problems with the Cartel Market. I have no problems with the fact that people can P2W by buying the packs -> selling them on the GTN for in game credits -> buy the best gear in the game. (Although I’m glad that you won’t be able to do this in 2.0) But I am appalled that they are adding this feature to a party of the GAMEPLAY. REMOVE this from the gameplay reputation and stick this feature in the Cartel Market area.