sell-dog
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Posts posted by sell-dog
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Wasn't this advertised as the series to show Maul's final fate? For whatever reason I thought this was the case so when reading #4 I was a little disappointed at the end. "Final fate" to me is quite different than putting Maul on the back burner until they want to tie him into another project to boost sales. Enjoyed the series but the final ending didn't like.
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Great analysis! Thanks. I do have a question per the quote below.
A deeper look points to an even greater power than Kreia believed, whilst she incorrectly assumes the Sith were great lightsaber duellists, as the Sith Empire had no lightsabers, due to the Dark Jedi Exiles having been stripped of their lightsabers by the Jedi Order and Republic. What she also states requires deeper research, as many people don't understand the significance of these statements.
Being stripped of their lightsabers makes sense as they were war prisoners. However after seeing the images below from Exiles Wooki page
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Xoxaan_Muur.jpg
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:ExiledDarkJedi-BoS.jpg
Did they reconstruct their own, have some hidden, or is this (out of universe) some error along the way?
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good the sidious comes back from the dead thing was by a wide margine the stupidest plot of any EU story
The rumor I heard was that it would just be him as a Force Ghost (ie like Obi-Wan in the OT) which at first glance seems more feasible than like what happened in the EU
A spin-off? Possibly a movie set between the original movies?Feel like they may also have prequel to the prequels in mind ie like the Darth Plag may be also be possible. I feel like it'd be hard to involve that timeline without Vader. Not that they will avoid Vader but just IMO Vader won't be in more movies.
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But new texts say the Jedi buried him.
Also, would his spirit exist if he was lost to the void?
The rule of two was revealed to the Jedi Order of centuries past, but in their hubris, the Jedi believed that they had destroyed Bane's plan with his defeat. His remains were placed in a sarcophagus on Moraband, the last Sith Lord to be laid to rest in the Valley of the Dark Lords, and the Jedi presumed the Sith to have been wiped out.Where does that quote say that the Jedi buried Bane?
All it says is the Jedi thought they had destroyed Bane's plans with his defeat.
Bane's remains were placed in a sarcophagus, notice how that is its own sentence because it is its own thought. Independent of the previous sentence dealing with the Jedi.
Also remember that Bane had a holocron floating around somewhere
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But it isn't the Sith way to bury their masters, and I can't imagine the Jedi would bury a Sith on a planet so strong in the dark side lol...
Zannah didn't share the utter hatred for her master that other apprentices had displayed. In fact, even immediately after his defeat she proclaims to Cognus they are Bane's legacy and the future of the Sith. She viewed Bane as a true revolutionary and the thought of her returning Bane's remains doesn't seem like a stretch to me. I mean Sidious kept Plag's remains....
Also, the OP says that the Jedi Council rejected the idea of the Rule of Two because they thought Bane's defeat had ended any threat of his legacy. The OP does not say that it is the same Jedi Council that saw the defeat of Bane AND later rejected the Rule of Two rumors. Therefore it remains, and I think it is phrased in such a manner, stating that the "defeat" of Bane and the rejection of the Rule of Two happened at different times as it is now.
Bane is still the same.
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"The rule of two was revealed to the Jedi Order of centuries past, but in their hubris, the Jedi believed that they had destroyed Bane's plan with his defeat. "
So the way the DU tells it, the jedi found out abut Bane, found him, fought him defeated him, but I guess either his apprentice escaped or he was able to keep his legacy going somehow.
No, at the end of the novel "Rule of Two" the 15 Jedi thought they killed "Darth Bane" (who was really Tomcat) at Caleb's Hut.
Read the OP quote again
An ancient and legendary Sith Lord, it was Darth Bane who saw that the Sith traditions of old were ultimately a dead end. All too often, squabbling Sith in their bid for power upended carefully laid plans and planted the seeds of their own defeat. After the Sith were decimated by the Jedi Knights of a thousand years ago, Bane enacted the Sith rule of two: there would be only two active Sith at one time -- a Dark Lord to embody the power, and an apprentice to crave it. These Sith would operate in the shadows, favoring guile and conspiracy to bring down their opponents rather than brute force -- that is, until it was time to rise and subjugate the galaxy.The rule of two was revealed to the Jedi Order of centuries past, but in their hubris, the Jedi believed that they had destroyed Bane's plan with his defeat. His remains were placed in a sarcophagus on Moraband, the last Sith Lord to be laid to rest in the Valley of the Dark Lords, and the Jedi presumed the Sith to have been wiped out. But Bane's rule of two secretly preserved a Sith vendetta, and for a thousand years, the Sith Lords worked in secret, preparing for a return. This plan culminated in the rise of Darth Sidious, the destruction of the Jedi Order, and the creation of the Galactic Empire.
Upon closer examination there is literally nothing here that does not conflict with Darth Bane's trilogy or any other canon. The Jedi knew of Bane by reputation only during the War (Master Farfalla acknowledges he knew of Bane) then thought he was one of the many Sith who died in the Thought Bomb. The Jedi later find out Bane is alive but mistakenly think Tomcat was Bane.
If I'm not mistaken, there was also an incident when Yoda was on the council around 150ish BBY where someone was proclaiming the Sith had survived and were now only two at any time. The Jedi Council immediately dismissed this truth and then we all know what happened later.
The only thing I was unaware of in the OP was Bane's remains being in the Valley of the Dark Lords. If this is new does it really change anything? No. The Bane tale we all know remains unaffected for now.
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So yes, I think Bane will betray Kaan at the drop of a hat and join Revan. Revan will probably then get him to off Malak (who I doubt he trusts and IMO is weaker than Bane) and make Bane his apprentice, then trash the Brotherhood.
Remember that one time Malak betrayed Revan at the drop of a hat...
As I've said before, in my opinion Revan's Sith Empire more loyalty issues than the Brotherhood does
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Unfortunately, without the Star Forge, I don't think we can use that as an argument here, since it helped supplement Revan's forces.
^^ I agree with this.
Also, restating the fact, that the Brotherhood has Bane who is the best individually in this this war. Brotherhood can also use Kas'im for individual missions which is definitely a great option as well. If we're assuming the Bane and all the unity on the Brotherhood side we could put Bane back with the Gloom Walkers as a sort of Vader with the 501st role.
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If Revan was able to resist the mental domination of the Emperor and still bring people to join in his empire, then do you imagine it'd be plausible that Revan might able to break other people from Kaan's hold?
I'm pretty sure she said that to close the gap between Kaan and Darth Revan's charisma and being able to inspire/control/persuade their respective troops. And Kaan didn't dominate people's mind like the Emperor did, he was more of a subtle persuasion like a Zannah sort of style. Either way, I don't know if "undoing a mind-trick placed on someone else" is a thing in the SW universe.
I think the stability/back-stabbing of Kaan's forces is being overstated. The only person that there was ever a conflict with was Bane. The rest of the Brotherhood was relatively-united (as in not stating overpowering objection) to getting rid of Bane and Qordis only made some silly scrub last chance at an alliance. There was not a concrete plot in mind once said alliance were to be formed. Darth Revan's Empire had loyalty issues at the very top of the chain of command. I find the 2nd in command trying to assassinate the guy in charge speaking to a much higher magnitude of instability/back-stabbing than trying to get rid of someone who's new to the Dark Lord Ranks.
Without the Star Forge I think this may also imply that the Brotherhood will have the tech advantage. For whatever it's worth, the Brotherhood lasted 3 times longer than Revan's (Malak's) Sith Empire. I think this in a way speaks to the quantity of their respective arsenals and the stability within. I think Revan is the better strategist but the longer the war goes, the more it will favor Kaan.
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Yea the stand-alone movie talks have been out for a while, I think the plan was they are going to do the trilogy in 2015, 2017, and 2019 then two stand-alones in 2016 and 2018. Then repeat the cycle after 10ish+ years.
Stand-alone movie would be a good opportunity to do some Old Republic Era!
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Neat that they're out there, but I don't think I'll pick up a pair.
Maybe the cast and crew of Ep VII should wear them as good luck
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But not everything had the opportunity to be one.
I know, but the temptation to troll was too great
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I got it as well and liked it.
And to above posters, everything is better as a TV show/movie
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Very nice and well done analysis.
This is will be my main argument for Ahsoka in the Underrated Force Users thread!
I've always thought in terms of physical combat prowess she is undeniably above the level of Padawan and at the level of Knight
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Revan and Meetra are both Jedi Guardians
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Nomi Sunrider is a better example. She was untrained, married to an active Jedi, had a child with him, and then began her training after his murder. There are a couple more examples of Jedi relationships during the Great Sith War.
As in the Revan novel it's made clear that his marriage is looked down upon by the Order. Then by PT era we know their stance on it by that time.
This was discussed a little back and I forgot all the answers. Sometime in the 45 years between Great Sith War and Revan the Order became stricter regarding this rule to being very very strict about it much later. Emotional bonds were too risky and unpredictable.
Take note though that during the Great Sith War these Jedi having relationships appear to be in the minority. Even in the PT era, Ki-Adi-Mundi had several wives and children but he's an extreme exception as his Cerean males are rare.
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Very good read and analysis good sir!
The origins of Jedi and Sith have been more developed than the Mandos so having threads like this increase people's awareness of their awesomeness!!
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I dislike the title, I hope its just another rumor...
Boys, this is the greatest title ever to grace the galaxy
Seriously though I do like it as having the word "ancient" suggests that we may get some more TOR lore coming.
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Powerpuff Girls was on Cartoon Network yet this didn't seem to hinder TCW in anyway. Just because a channel targets a certain age group doesn't mean that they won't divide the interest of the age group into subcategories (or even break the age groups down further) and make shows to satisfy each subcategory. When you watch Mark Hamill in the OT are you thinking of the Joker or just seeing his character Luke Skywalker? I'm confident when the show begins no one will be thinking of Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck during the Rebels' episodes.
At the end of the day, we (fans) literally have no control over the content that will be in Rebels or Ep VII. So we may as well be optimistic or indifferent in the meantime instead of Negative Nancies
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Among the Sith, Lords are fewest in number.
Weak eventually get culled from the higher echelons of power within the Empire. Their gang tactics can work for a while but they eventually flop because Sith do not last as friends of each other.
To become Sith, an acolyte must face and conquer many trails. Each challenge tests combat prowess, talent with the dark side, and knowledge of Sith Code. Such trails can occur anywhere on Korriban, from the dank cells of the Sith Academy jail to the deadly tomb of Naga Sadow. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Banite Sith Apprentices have defeated Jedi Masters. I think that's more difficult than any trial the Academy gives.
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Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire have produced some of the finest Sith in the mythos. However, these Sith don't have same level of hype as the Sith of Rule of Two, acknowledgement bias I guess.
Literally anyone born in the Sith Empire meeting some midichlorian criterion was put into the Sith Academy. The Empire really did not care who among these acolytes made it through and who did not. You keep using the intense competition but it truly is not relevant. If I have a bunch of pupils running around with D level skills and you have one pupil of grade A material, who has the better pupils? You do. More does not always mean better. I would take 1 share of Apple stock over 50 shares of Radioshack stock any day of the week.
You also seem to think that Rule of Two apprentices were pampered and sheltered from the galaxy and confrontation. This is bluntly not true. Bane created the Rule of Two to return the Sith to a fashion more similar to TOR era by making the Sith as fearful of each other as well as their enemy. They were training someone that would one day challenge them. Just because the Rule of Two Sith did not run in with Jedi as often does not mean they didn't face powerful enemies as there are still plenty of powerful people in the galaxy including each other.
The Sith could take in so many recruits because they were the only executive force in their Empire. The Rule of Two Sith couldn't take any chances on their apprentices. Not only did they need to select someone with the potential of becoming more powerful than themselves, they also needed apprentices who could maintain the secrecy/hiding in the shadows element they needed. TOR (my favorite era by the way) era had some great Warriors but they were often stubborn and egotistical leading them to reckless behavior. A warrior that is constantly flashing their red lightsaber around without thought still has use in the Sith Empire. Such an individual could never be in the Rule of Two.
The Darth Plag novel states directly that Masters began to use their own offspring as apprentices. This is in part because they could shield their offspring from Jedi recruiters, but also because no one else had the Force potential they had/needed for an apprentice.
Most importantly, every member of the Rule of Two that has been developed has employed some use of TK, Persuasion, Concealment, or other Force ability as children without training or even knowing that they were doing it. Ie, the Force was so very inherit to the Sith of the Rule of Two. The only Sith of TOR era, at the moment, to have such an claim at the moment is Vitiate...not even Malgus as he had already had some informal lessons in the Force before he killed his father's servant.
It is not just biased that give merit to Banite Sith. Let's also be honest, the reason Banite Sith are sometimes undervalued is because they do not lie within the pages of SWTORE.
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In honor of May 4th yesterday nfl.com did a mock draft of this year's draft order with Star Wars characters. The description of Han Solo and then Jabba are my favorite. Enjoy!
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap2000000346372/star-wars-mock-draft
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I haven't checked this sourcebook yet. I will look in to it, if I find it.
Tales of the Jedi Volume 1 & 2 are a collections of comics. I thought Vol 1 was alright but Vol 2 was awesome! I would highly recommend it just for the entertainment factor alone.
Emperor Vitiate's performance during (Nathema) ritual outshines anything Exar Kun have pulled off with dark sorcery. Emperor Vitiate can influence entire worlds with his dark sorcery, he is arguably the greatest sorcerer to grace the galaxy.
I think my phrasing of my argument was not clear, my statement was comparing Kun and Vitiate's natural affinity for Sorcery. I was not comparing their feats but I was stating Kun's feats to back my claim that the two's natural talent is similar.
I am not arguing whose feats are better as I agree that Vitiate's are more impressive. However a feat in itself is a product of the individual's natural talent plus the work ethic/time spent honing their talent. Much like how things work in real-life. Putting it in a mathematical framework:
Vitiate Talent+Vitiate Studying = Vitiate Feats
Kun Talent+Kun Studying = Kun Feats.
Kun Feats less than Vitiate Feats, but at the same time Kun Studying SIGNIFICANTLY less than Vitiate Studying. Thus in my opinion their natural talents are very comparable and the feats attributed to Kun with the less favorable/quantitative time to study the Dark Arts speaks to his talent. I am defining talent as what was available to that individual at birth, not what Vitiate obtained after artificial means such as Nathema.
Emperor Vitiate concentrated on honing his talents in the dark arts and did not participate in politics. He might have usurped even Marka Ragnos to rule the ancient Sith Empire if he wanted to but he chose not to. He took the matters in to his hands after the disaster of Great Hyperspace War and relocated/reconstituted the ancient Sith Empire in unexplored regions during that era due to safety reasons. He prevented his followers to get involved in galactic affairs for a long long time because of the lessons learned from Great Hyperspace War. This is why many Sith serving him did not had the option to demonstrate their talents to the entire galaxy, they didn't had the freedom enjoyed by Kun.
Vitiate did not participate in politics or warfare. I also don't think he could've challenged Ragnos. If Ragnos viewed him as a threat to his throne, do you think he would've given Vitiate an insignificant planet to rule? Ragnos understood the way of the Dark Side and how it affects its practitioners thinking, hence why Ragnos died of natural causes/old age and not murdered by a rival. Why would Ragnos give a powerful individual an insignificant planet? This would cause said individual some jealously and would threaten Ragnos rule. It makes sense to think Ragnos would keep the power players happy by giving them appropriate standing and not care what scrubs thought. There is little information on Vitiate's pre-Nathema ritual, but still a Lord of the Sith, life to say at the moment.
Vitiate began delegating the instant they touched down in Dromund Kass. Also, I don't think the Sith of Vitiate's Empire were forced not to venture out from Sith space as much as they simply chose not to on their own accord. The fundamental rule of the Sith is survival. Remember from the Revan novel, when Scourge first heard that Vitiate wanted to fight the Republic was Scourge felt fear and anger because he knew there was no way they would win. Nyriss and the others kept plotting and plotting to prevent this war also for the sake of their survival.
Kun have excellent feats but Emperor Vitiate outshined him, he managed to utilize one of the most dangerous rituals to have ever been attempted to his advantage and consumed the entire biota of his homeworld to transform himself in to an immortal being. 8000 other Sith Lords participated in this ritual and perished.
Unfortunately, no.
(see above, was comparing their talents not feats)
How formidable was Keto's power?
Was just illustrating that he had absorbed and redirected attacks before. In the grand scheme of things though I would put her at a "Dark Lord of Sith" but not "Dark Council" level. Kun redirected it so easily though and was taunting her while doing it.
I advice you to consult Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide sourcebook.
Exar Kun and (Darth) Revan have comparable stats. In-fact, Darth Revan have been acknowledged as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history as well.
From Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Darth Revan was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history. At the height of the Jedi Civil War, the Sith Empire covers nearly one-third of the known galaxy, with many worlds hotly contested between the Republic and the Sith Empire. Some worlds join the Sith Empire willingly, while others are taken by force. Dozens if not hundreds of Sith apprentices learn the ways of the dark side of the Force, and a few even rise to the rank of Sith Master, training students of their own. With legions of armored troopers, spreading throughout the galaxy, all led by masters of the Force, the Sith Empire seems unstoppable.
Is this sourcebook in-universe up until 3950 BBYish? If so, then yes Darth Revan would be one of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history at that time but this is largely because there is such little information available. Per the moment it would be Vitiate, Kun, and Darth Revan but there really is not much info on Darth Revan.
Revan wasn't a Sith when he confronted Mandalore the Ultimate but he was very powerful at this point:
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.
To be honest, I've never thought that beating any Mandalorian is that impressive for someone that is at the top of the Jedi Order. Plus there is little information MTU's specifics anyway.
Revan was among the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history as well, see the top spoiler above.
(above)
Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 really is a great read if you've got the free time to enjoy its awesomeness!
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True Sith mainly Vitiate >Kun, because we know at some point Kun, Kresh and Naga Sadow faced the True Sith Empire and failed.
:rak_02::rak_02:I'm not sure I understand this at all. The True Sith Empire was after Kresh and Sadow. There's no material that states that Vitiate ever came into contact with those two. Vitiate and Ragnos had met but that's it. During the Great Hyperspace War, Vitiate chose not to involve himself and this was not a big deal as he was known as a reclusive scholar who was lord of an insignificant planet. The True Sith Empire was formed with the remains of the Golden Age of the Sith Empire. Kun also never came into contact with Vitiate or his Empire. In fact, by Marka Ragnos and other ancient sith lords proclaiming Kun to be the future of the Sith they are directly undermining Vitiate's authority and claim to being Lord of the Sith. There was a big thread on this at an earlier time. In the SWTOR Galactic Timeline videos, they state that Vitiate was afraid of the threat that the ancient Sith posed when he returned to battle the Republic.
Hence the future with the Rule of two and so on.
The Rule of Two has nothing to do with Vitiate or his Empire. It only dealt with the failings of the Brotherhood of Darkness both in their claim to be Lords of the Sith and their unsuccessful war with the Jedi/Republic.
So Revan >Kun because of that reason, wont bring vitiate no more but its a fact Vitiate>Kun maybe except after been trapped in Yavin 4
What reason? The Rule of Two? All Revan said was one apprentice to one master. It was Bane who had the idea of making 2 Sith exclusively.
Also I do think in general Vitiate is more powerful than Kun. But in combat setting I think it would be really close. Remember, Vitiate is all sorcerer and not a warrior. The Revan novel directly says Vitiate did not hold a lightsaber correctly and suffered from severe tunnel vision.
:rak_02:
TCW Sidious vs Dooku & Ventress
in STAR WARS Discussion
Posted
Ah Yes another Versus question, this one however is rooted in canon (and plus it's mine so I get to ask it
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We all know that in TCW Season 3 Sidious orders Dooku to eliminate Ventress due to the threat of their combined strength. Some time later in the show, Sidious absolutely has his way with Maul and Savage. My question is this, if at the moment Dooku abandoned Ventress they instead combined to take on Sidious, who would win?
My somewhat education default of an answer is Sidious, but I think him emerging victorious yet not without physical damage is possible and thus a threat to his cover as Chancellor (and thus his overall plans). I also think Dooku & Ventress > Maul & Savage. Thoughts?