Interesting. I'm gonna bookmark it for future reference.

Well, it depends what you mean. In terms of force mastery, the Hero most definitely isn't #1, since we've got people like Nomi, Revan, and Meetra. In terms of pure, raw power though? It's certainly arguable.

The main problem associated with the HoT thing is that he/she would even need high level lightsaber skill to beat Vitiate. Vitiate is not a skilled duelist by any stretch of the imagination, therefore the Hero could be Maul level or lower duelist and still take down Vitiate very quickly if he/she got close. The trick, though, is that the Hero would have to weather to storm of Vitiate's force attacks to get close, which would require an immensely high level of power. Hell, after the Hero wins the bout, the Emperor notes that he/she possesses "immense power." So yeah, imo the hero should be on a top 10 list like this, even in terms of power.

So, in regards to this thread, I suggest we find a line between the omnipotence displayed in KOTOR II and the relative mediocrity in TOR: Revan.

I read through the Exile vs. Surik thread and all the comments, and it does help clear up quite a few things. However, something you said will always ring true:

I'll be sure to check it out, thanks.

1. The Emperor's Wrath, feats wise, is quite a ways above Meetra as depicted in Revan. Losing to him doesn't suggest inferiority to Meetra. 2. Scourge as or Revan is nothing compared to Scourge as of TOR. Scourge as of TOR had 300 years more experience, has one of the highest personal kill counts in the mythos, and would have filled out his potential, which Revan considered "incredible." Also to note is that scourge was stomped by a dark councillor in Revan, in TOR he cows even the best of them. He's far above his previous incarnation.

First of all, let's analyze what Meetra did in the novel: -The book implies that she and Scourge were equals, by Scourge being "unsure," who were to survive if they fought. -She was epically tooled by Nyriss, in both lightsaber combat and force strength. -Took quite a while to dispatch the imperial guard (around the same time as Scourge did), while Revan defeated one in a 2-3 move sequence. There are certainly 5 other jedi who could replicate this, many from the TOR era. Like Satele, Aryn Leneer, Tol Braga, Jaric Kaedan, and Master Wyellett. In case you don't know, Master Wyellett is the dude who saved multiple jedi council members from the starweird queen (not much details on her) and defeated Darth Baras, all before he communed with the force for years under a bunch of rubble to become more powerful than ever. Oh yeah, and by that point the Republic literally classified him as a superweapon.

Which offers a massive inconsistency. One version is probably top 5, the other isn't even top 10.

If we choose to disregard Karpyshyn's crappy version of Meetra, she should be in the top 5 no doubt.

The problem I have with Meetra is Drew Karpyshyn. He never even bothered to play KOTOR 2, so he doesn't know the Exile's capabilities evidenced by the game (i.e. beating down sith throughout the entire trayus academy, sion, and traya, all through the most powerful dark side nexus the galaxy ever saw.) In the novel, he decided to go the path of "my character is better than yours," and completely ruined her. She should have been able to defeat Nyriss all by herself IMO. Instead, Nyriss tools Meetra and Scourge simultaneously.

And the Hero was the only one who could stand up to the Sith Emperor Kun was chosen above Vitiate by the ancients, yes, though this would probably have more to do with motives and circumstances than personal power. Kun was strong, "the most powerful of all the ancient sith lords," as he's been called by canonical sources, but the Sith Emperor is stronger. Regardless of the quotes and accolades, Vitiate's still the guy who: -Defeated Revan in fair combat using the ability Revan is greatest at defending against (lightning) - Was more than a match for the trio of Revan, Meetra, and Scourge -Easily defeated four of the most powerful jedi in the galaxy, while not even exerting his full power (he didn't want to kill them). -Telepathcally Dominated Tol Braga, perhaps the brightest and resolute jedi in the order with a "thought," as per Braga's own admission -Mentally stalemated Sel Makor, a dark side entity that, "threatened all of existence," for months. Sel Makor was also in awe of the Emperor's power when he finally took control of his body, (after the Emperor lowered his defenses for the Wrath to strike him down.) However, if not considering the Hero of Tython or the Barsen'thor, then I'll have to think about that one. Nomi would have a very good chance at nabbing the #1 spot for jedi.

IMO he's the number one jedi. Overall, though, I'd still rank Vitiate ahead of in terms of power. After all, it's blatantly stated that he is, and he's got the chops to prove it. It's somewhat difficult to pinpoint/quantify how weakened he was from the ritual and how amped he was from the dark temple, but I don't see the Hero as legitimately more powerful than the Emperor.

In regards to the topic, I think the Hero of Tython should take the number 2 spot. He was evidently one of the most powerful jedi in the order even as of Tython: "One of the strongest padawans the Jedi have seen in generations. - SWTORE pg. 92 ”Your former Masters praise your combat skills. They say you're becoming an expert duelist." – Knight Wellun, at the start of the game. “The Force is strong in you. Stronger than I've seen in decades.” Orgus Din. “You are stronger than any Jedi I have known” - Bengal Morr after his defeat. The same Bengel Morr who ragdolled Orgus Din. By the end of Act 1, the Hero is considered the greatest jedi in the order: "Warren was the order's greatest soldier in his day--now that role falls to you." - Tol Braga "We've lost one of our noblest Masters, but in his place stands a Jedi without equal." - Satele Shan (Act 1 ending) "But he also forged our greatest weapon against the darkness." - Satele Shan (Act 1 ending) In his prime, the Hero is far and away the best jedi of the era: "You harness immense power." - Sith Emperor to the Hero of Tython. ”The Hero of Tython. Your martial skills are legendary.” – Loyat, apprentice to Darth Arho. “You are our greatest asset.” – Supreme Chancellor Suresh His best feats comprise of defeating Bengel Morr as a padawan with a training saber (just beforehand he ragdolled Orgus Din and rendered him unconscious), defeating a dark council level warrior at the end of Act 1 (Darth Angral), defeating Lord Scourge at the end of Act 2, who cowed the dark council and is already an expert swordsman as of Revan, far before his prime. Then of course he defeats the Emperor in the dark temple on Dromund Kaas after fighting through the Imperial Guard, the "Ultimate non force sensitive warriors in the Empire," which in my opinion is one of the greatest feats any jedi has ever performed.

1. I'd have to completely deny the existence of the source in question to be calling you an outright liar. Which I'm not. 2. And no, I'm not questioning it because I haven't heard of it. I'm questioning it because no one on any other star wars forum/board has ever sited a collector's edition of it. Ever. Nor a revised edition of the PotJSB. And again, I'm not denying its existence completely. I'd be legitimately happy if it existed (no Nomi respect ), but based on the fact that Its never been sited by anyone, anywhere, I do have a perfect reason to be skeptical.

Would you mind providing sources and page numbers for these feats, as well as scans if you can? Because not only have I never heard of these feats before, but apparently a Collector's Edition of the KOTORCG doesn't even exist (in regards to the Sion feat). I'm not trying to insult your credibility or anything of the sort, but I'm wondering if these are actually real/exist.

I didn't post it to introduce more wankery. I just did it so everyone can accurately assess Revan using every feat and accolade he has to his name.

You will probably never find a Revan Respect Thread even close to the size of this one. You can use this whenever you wish to debate in a thread regarding Revan. All credit goes to user DarthAnt66 of comicvine and KMC forums for the creation of this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread/95278/

Bulq definitely has better feats. Kas'im has a good deal of hype though.

Something to take into account: Kas'im's loss to Bane while not utilizing jar'kai was specifically credited to Bane's superior raw power, not skill. While Bulq is no doubt powerful, I believe Bane's own raw power is superior, and therefore Bulq wouldn't get a definitive edge in a lightsaber duel due to that.

6:15 and on.

I'd just like to share these quotes from Drew Karpyshyn stated in one of his emails: "though he was skilled in all of them - he was always more of a generalist than a specialist." - Drew, on Revan's skill with lightsaber forms. "And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building; it would really depend on his state of mind and the circumstances." -Drew, on Revan's TK also, here are some other random questions and answers: Questions: 1. What does it mean that Revan is ''heart of the Force?'' 2. Is Revan really more powerful than Nihilus, as is suggested by the Exile in Revan novelization? 3. Did Revan reach oneness state when he released a combination of light side and dark side against Sith Emperor in Revan novelization? 4. In Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil novelization, it is noted that on Ambria, the nexus is trapped within the lake, but Zannah, when spawning dark-side tendrils, draws nexus energy from the soil and stone. How does this work? 5. If Darth Bane had opportunity to choose if he could wear the orbalisks in Darth Bane: Rule of Two novelization, do you think he would decline? 6. Is Darth Bane the Sith'ari? Answers: 1. It doesn't mean anything specific; only that he is very connected to the Force. 2. I don't like to say A is stronger than B; I explain why on my FAQ page. They were both very powerful, though not in the exact same way. 3. I'm not sure what you mean by a "oneness state". Revan is a powerful Force user who draws on both the light and dark side of the Force, but he was always kind of like that. 4. The Force permeats all things, and while much of the power is concentrated in the lake, it seeps through everything. Zannah basically was drawing on the power trapped there for thousands of years. 5. It's hard to say; they gave him great power but they also almost destroyed him. I'm not sure what he would do, to be honest. 6. I like to leave this open to interpretation. Some people say yes, some say no; it depends on who you define the various prophecies. But I don't believe this has a definitive answer; it's always open to interpretation.

Does lobbing asteroids at fast speeds in succession count? Actually Drew Karpyshyn said in an e-mail that in the right mindset, Revan could collapse a building. Let me get said quote.

lol. Every bit of info we have helps

he's also telekenetically overwhelmed Revan twice (on the leviathan).