If they still have their leap to use, just wait until they're within the old Overload range. Against the specs that don't have leaps, don't wait. Result: happiness.

Mid: I help out our dps sorcs all the time, as do our peelers. My heals are for everyone, and my pull has uses besides huttball.

I'm not just thinking of it from a healer's perspective. For madness sorcs now, Overload by itself is not going to save your bacon if you're already surrounded. If your hp is getting eaten that fast, you're in a bad position, and the second or two the KB provides you will not solve your problem. (especially since even pure melees get a ranged attack or two) Being able to use the KB from farther away will end up buying you even more time. The extra 7m out + creeping terror + 20sec force speed will make a huge difference. Also, think of how wide an area you're hitting at 15m. You'll be able to break up the impending swarm unless they're spread waayyyy too thin, which would help your team pick them off even easier. If you don't have a team to rely on right now, the current Overload will not make up for it anymore than the new one will. If you do have a good team, the new Overload will help them help you even more. This is because YOU can now take the initiative in defending yourself with it, instead of waiting to react to a looming fuster cluck. The offensive/support uses shouldn't be ignored either; after all, this is a team game. It's already a good idea to use Overload to keep multiple enemies off of objectives / teammates, even though you put yourself in harms way doing so. (hopefully, your team will be standing by to support you in turn, as they should) With the change, you'll be able to support a greater area with less risk. Oh, and as much as I miss the old force bending, that ish did need to be changed. I used to be able to will people back to life with 2 quick big heals. DI is nowhere close to useless now, though. You count on Innervate, DH, Resurge, and Bubble when things get hairy. (especially Bubble+Resurge+Innervate) With a well timed slow/sprint/KB/stun/ combo thereof, you set yourself up for Resurge + Recklessness as you LoS + 1-2 big ol' DI crits. (2 heal me for around 60-65% of my health). If your team is doing a good job distracting/peeling/locking peeps down, you can throw your big crits on them. (if they're 30% or below, though, the quicker heals are a better choice) DI also makes a great, force efficient top-off when you clear a hot-spot and need to move to the next. TL;DR version: think of ways to adapt, and you will. If you assume there's no hope, well, then there probably isn't any for you. edit: as for "phasing through pillars": no need, KB past pillar, strafe, LoS broken, rejoice!

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to interrupt/steal the cap on our natural side, just do it with 1-2 guys instead of over half the team. After each side's opening plays out, of course you can try to stealth cap a node. Don't assume that you'll lose mid. If you kill healers and effectively focus fire, you can beat back the enemy even if you're slightly outnumbered. More likely (if outnumbered), smart play will at least keep the enemy from taking mid long enough for reinforcements to arrive / for a couple of your teammates to take the enemy's side. Most importantly, don't give up and camp your node just because the enemy got 2 turrets first. It's very possible to turn a game around, but not if you stop playing. This happened to a guildie and me in a lowbie CW yesterday. At the beginning of the match, one person asked what the plan was. (I can't remember his name, but he was good enough to actually try the whole match) We suggested the usual 2 to east (1 to cap, 1 to stun/slow any attackers), 1 to try to stop west if they wanted to, rest mid. I ran interference for east, saw no one was coming, and looped around to help mid.... only to find that only my guildie and the one other smart player on our team were there. 2 people were standing at the landing pad, the rest were fighting in the middle of nowhere out west. (which, obviously, the enemy capped) Well, pretty silly ish, but whatever. I called the team out on not going mid, naturally, but then suggested that we regroup and pick a node to attack. Instead, 3 people go camp east while the rest of the team makes a half-hearted attempt at helping out. After one failed attempt, everyone but me, my guildie, and the other smart player goes to sit at east. We asked them why they were just giving up, and one guy said it was pointless, blaming it on being a lower level. The 3 of us still playing got a good scoff out of that, told the quitters to do whatever they wanted while we went to have some fun fighting people. Yes, we died alot, but lo and behold: my guildie and I (both level 23) were at the top of the scoreboard. We got plenty of random kills and enjoyed ourselves even as the score counted down to our loss. If you're not even gonna try when things don't go your way, please don't play.

Nick: 1) They did nerf DFA's aoe, actually. As far as your concerns, you say that you already strategically position your Overload; keep doing that with the new one and you'll be fine. A swarm of dps headed your way is pretty easy to spot, imo. Now, we have to wait for them to get within 8m of us. With the change, we can knock the swarm away even earlier. You can't use Overload now to stop stealthers from opening on you (unless you're psychic). There are other ways to get people off your butt besides force-farting on them. 2) considering the buffs you get (I consider the new KB to be a buff, but we'll just factor in the free heal and 20sec force sprint for now), the electrocute change should be very manageable. You still have long range cap stoppers, and extra force sprints will get you within 10m of someone to trap them in the fire. (besides, you should've already slowed them) This isn't a l2p issue yet, because there is nothing new for us to play with atm. Instead, learn to consider the benefits and new uses of the proposed KB along with the other changes. Even looking at the KB in a vacuum, though, I'm still seeing it as a positive change. If nobody can conceptualize Overload's new uses themselves, I'll jot some down for you later. Right now, though, I need to get some lunch before I go back to work.

Sigh, alot of silly things to reply to, but I'll try to keep it condensed. First off Larry, as to the 20/20/20 spec: you did notice where I said the *I* will enjoy the root breaking force speed, i.e. I'm thinking of my spec in particular. (I run the corruption/lit. hybrid) Second, the new KB is not gonna suddenly make a good madness sorc lose against an anni mara. There's no reason you can't, you know, knockback the leap by slightly facing them. You're not going to do any damage to anyone with your back to them. So, while you are doing damage, you'll have even more reach on the KB. If you can take the time to figure out a worst case scenario screw up, take the time to figure out how to use your new tool in addition to all the other added goodies. (in madness' case, just the self heal and 20sec force speed, but the new force speed alone in a game changer) How can you say that there won't be uses for KBing a ranged class? You can knock those bastards behind a pillar/ into a hazard from farther away now. (Just don't waste it on a sniper in cover, obviously) Besides, I'm not just talking about just ranged classes when I say the new range is beneficial to us. Like I've said, if you don't see the benefit of using a longer range KB to kite melee, there's no helping you. Those of you worrying about lag, you do realize the current KB is effected by lag even more, right? Instant casts are much more forgiving. Finally, please don't try to tell me about the trials and tribulations of kiting as a DPS. I'm a healer; I get focused MUCH more than you ever do. I don't whine about it, though, because I know how to cope. I kite my merry way around, tossing out shields and heals, slowing, stunning, KBing, and sprinting as I go, giving myself time to cast bigger heals. Sure, I might make a mistake and die, or run out of force and die, but by that time I've distracted most of their dps while my teammates do their thing. This is all much easier with another healer, obviously, but I can make it work on my own. When I saw the new KB, I knew that I'd have even more kiting options, options that I intend to use the hell out of.

Um, yes please on the 240m ranged KB? Good try being cheeky and all, but the AREA an AoE ability effects is pretty important.

Alright, my geometry is rusty, but here it goes... Current overload: circle with 8m radius. pie (we'll just say 3.14) * r squared = area 3.14 * (8*8) -> 3.14 * 64 = an area of 200.96 square meters New overload: 120 degree 15m cone (1/3 of a circle) [3.14 * (15 * 15) ] / 3 --> [3.14 * (225)] / 3 --> [706.5] / 3 = an area of 235.5 square meters So, we actually have a larger AoE now. (by 34.9 square meters, for those of you keeping count) Your new "blind spot" will only be a problem if you allow yourself to be surrounded, which will be easier to prevent with the greater range (and area of effect) of Overload and more opportunities to re position thanks to the new force speed. And if you DO let someone get behind you, just don't fire off your KB while you're facing away from them. Turn yourself a bit/ slow them first to give yourself some breathing room/ sprint away, turn and KB. Hell, stun them first if you really have to (you shouldn't, but w/e); might be worth it to get them into some fire or off a bridge. Don't have a conniption over something you haven't even tried yet. Instead, try to conceptualize how you will use the new move; you'll start to see quite a few awesome uses for it. Addendum: You shouldn't letting yourself get surrounded now, either. There are many better uses for overload than a last-ditch stop-gap against melee. Without electric bindings, this will only buy you a second or 2 (maybe 3 max). With electric bindings, it is still better to re position a bit so you can root them out of LoS. Another addendum for cleon: if you're stunned, you're not using your KB, are you? When you do break, use the .5 seconds of delay we have now to face your attacker and use your shiny new instant KB. Plus, this'll work against ranged attackers in the new 15m sweet spot. If you use your break on slows/roots, well... you shouldn't, that's dumb. Besides, I'm pretty sure you can still turn while rooted. (I'll just enjoy my impair-breaking force speed)

This is the crux of why you're wrong. If you can't see the defensive uses of a 15m KB, then I guess there's no helping you. The more offensive/support uses are just an added bonus. (hello, instant 15m aoe cap stopper)

Not sure if anyone else said it, but you really shouldn't just give us mid in CW or NC. I noticed a few 5+ rushes to our natural side in CW yesterday; it did not work out well for the pubs. Although there are some alternative strategies to the usual "take two" approach, you cannot simply ignore the middle node entirely. Let's look at a little illustration: X-------------------------------------------X----------------------------------------X ^you take your node in CW give us ^ this one and send 5+ guys here^, which you eventually take after being slowed by the usual two. We can start slowing you from mid while we take your side. You can try to take mid, which is easy for us to with the 2 respawns from our side, or... ^ You run from here..................................................................to here^, with only a couple possible respawns to fly in, who can be stunned when they land. Both sides have some lackluster pugs, but that's to be expected from newer players. However, you guys should definitely do a bit of research / asking around the fleet or something (anything!) to figure out what's what in WZs. edit: that spacing took a little more effort than anticipated, so you better be fuper suckin' appreciative.

Well, philar, it's mostly speculation at this point, but I'm confident that the buffs both classes are receiving will make them much more competitive. Plus, there will probably be more changes to consider before all is said and done. There will always be specs that people feel aren't optimal for pvp/pve, but I've seen great players top the charts with "bad" specs. There will always be optimal specs for rated play, but it seems like things are moving in the right direction to make the sub-par specs fun and competitive for normal wzs. (maybe even rateds, but we'll see) For the record, I have no problem with good pyro mercs or madness sorcs in rated play right now. I've even seen gunnery and lightning specs carry their weight in ranked. (One of my guild's healers switched to lit. one night when we needed a dps. He was solidly in the middle of the dps pack, not at the bottom.)

Snipers will have the only 30m stun, and I'm fine with that. If you can't LoS snipers now without stunning them from max range, you'll have a better chance with more force speeding. Of course, if you have a problem now you need to work on it.

1) Yes, it's a tiny nerf (cone instead of 360 degrees), combined with an even better buff (instant activation + 15m range) 2) Electrocute nerf really isn't that big of a deal (especially considering the buffs). You shouldn't be throwing out your stuns like candy. You can, however, still use them carefully and effectively at 10m. 3) Because mercs don't have force speed every 20secs, for one. There's other differences, but I'm too lazy to look them up. 4) Hell, maybe it will be; nobody knows yet. Even if it isn't, though, it's not a huge deal (especially since I'm a healer ). Since 1.2 hit, I started using a 20sec force speed, and that in and of itself is awesome.

Hehe, I'm sure zero percent of that post was sarcasm, eh Ugly? I don't even really think this change is going to make sorcs any harder to play. Sure, we'll have to get used to a redesigned ability. However, we can now use this ability from farther away, which helps its offensive and defensive uses. The "oh poop" factor of the pbaoe is nice and all, but if a sorc is letting anyone surprise attack them they're doing something wrong. Especially if you're a healer, you know that some melees are gonna try to get on your case. With this change alone, you'll be able to get them back in front of your dps even quicker. (as long as you're paying attention, of course)

I can't wait for the changes. (I've said why in other posts, so I'll try not to go all TL;DR) I really like the sound of the new overload; the increase in range and instant activation say "buff" to me, not nerf. The other buffs we're getting shouldn't be downplayed because they're great too. Madness isn't too bad off as it is, and now it'll get 20sec force speed and a free heal every 30 secs. (plus, 15m KB + creeping terror will be juicy) The heal will end up helping their force management as well. (probably a free consumption or two every 30 secs) Lightning needed a good bit of love and got some; sounds like it might actually be viable for pvp. Healers obviously get a boost, and I was doing fine already. The only real nerf is the reduced range on electrocute, which I can easily live with with all the other buffs we're getting. I'll miss it for trapping someone in the fire from 30m, but I'll be able to stay closer with more force speeds. As far as people complaining about snipers: LoS is and still will be your best friend; there are plenty of better uses for your stun that are just as effective from 10m as they are from 30m.

I was replying to a specific concern. I, for one, am excited to try this out in rateds. My teammates do a good job of protecting our healers as it is, which means I'm not getting surprise attacked from all angles. Plus, with the new range on Overload, I can be more proactive with my knockbacks, which will actually make it easier for me to kite. (especially because I have electric bindings and 20sec force sprint as is; here's hoping for 10sec force sprint ) Like others (and myself) have already said, the instant activation will keep lag from being a huge issue. Lag rarely hurts me now, and that's with an animation delay and an 8m range. Instant KB with a 15m range? Yes please. I'll gladly give up smaller pbaoe if I get to put my ice cream in such a large cone.

Yeah, we really won't know how this'll all shake out until we know what sort of equations they're using. Ideally, the change would only effect stuns used within less than 1 second of each other. This would make things a bit easier on pugs with itchy trigger fingers without borking things for the rest of us. As I said in another thread, you shouldn't rely on getting your resolve filled early since (ideally) it won't usually happen. People will still be punished for wasting a stun, but they'll get a bit more leeway on prematurely giving a ball carrier full resolve, etc.

Already explained myself better in another thread (on a phone now, too lazy to type a bunch), but I don't think the change will really effect rated play.. Simultaneous stuns won't fill resolve, but waiting even just a couple seconds to throw out a second stun should still fill resolve. (all it takes after 1 stun [800 resolve] is another 200 resolve) In ranked matches, you'll get more stun time (I.e. The max we have now) from 2 correctly staggered stuns.

Don't like leaps? You can now push a leaper from even farther away. If he sneaks up on you, he deserves to get a couple of smacks in. Too lazy to find the quote, but someone was saying that the frontal cone will make it so you'll knock enemies into beneficial locations. (???) Bwuh? What if you, oh, I don't know, aim your knockback and send them exactly where you want them, like off a bridge/behind a pillar/ into fire or acid. And you can do all of this when they are still 15m away, 7 extra meters than we have now. If nobody can see the benefits of 15m + 8m (or 5 or however far it knocks them back), then I don't know what to tell you. I, for one, can't wait to push the crap out of some people.

Pfft, Huttball isn't marmite. It's sweet, delicious Nutella.

I suppose that could be a possible scenario, Sten, but maybe the third guy will blow his aoe stun early too. Or maybe the third guy won't have an aoe stun, or maybe their is no third guy, etc. etc. Like you said, it's all speculation at this point. For rated play, at least, the change will (hypothetically) not make a difference; stuns will be staggered correctly and CC breaks won't get used too early. You shouldn't have to rely on getting your resolve filled too quickly to survive because you won't always have that luxury. (although it's certainly nice) Pugs, meanwhile, won't be hurt quite as much by their mistakes. There'll probably still be some gang-stun fuster clucks that let the recipient score/ interrupt a cap, but they'll at least be less common. We'll see how it all plays out, but I'm not too worried about it yet.

If you can get used to jump turning, I think Overload can still be very effective defensively. You can't jump turn with it now because the delay would cause you to travel in the air in the opposite direction. As an instant ability, though, it won't have this problem. If you don't like jump turning (even though it's a useful skill for other situations), you can always try to fake them out: act like you're running around a pillar, about face, run past, and turn around and blast them as they take the extra second to react. As far as offensive/defensive uses go, it may prove to be a better defense precisely because you can use it more proactively. Plus, you can also use it more offensively to boot. Really, the sorc changes have only 2 nerf-ish aspects: 1) cone KB, 2) shorter range stun. I've already said I don't think 2) is gonna be as bad as people think with all the positive changes, and the downside of 1) is offset by the increased range on Overload. Meanwhile, the buffs we are getting are gonna be pretty damn awesome. Speaking from my post-1.2 respecing experience alone, having force speed every 20 seconds by itself is downright Om Nom.

Just curious if anyone has had time to consider my last post. I hate to interrupt the tete a tete you guys have got going on, but I do believe my thoughts on the matter might just help alleviate many of your concerns. (as far as resolve goes. I can't really weigh in on the merc/mando side of things, although my first impression is that you got some very helpful looking buffs)

Actually, keg, these changes could potentially make lightning viable for once. You'll get(possibly, depending on what they do with the talent trees) force speed every 10 seconds, interrupt immunity, a 3 second aoe hard stun, a longer range knockback, and a free, instant heal. Used correctly, these changes might just allow you to shock the hell out of people. From what I've heard, lightning dps in pve is in a good place at the moment; the main issue in pvp has been lack of mobility, i.e. you can't survive long enough to dish out any damage. Quickly re positioning every 10 seconds alone might just fix things, but we'll have to see. Also, I've heard some interesting theories on how to optimize your stats as a lit. sorc. I don't really know all the specifics, but you may be able to get more damage by sacrificing crit for power. (since TB is an insta-crit if you have affliction up) Like I said, we're just gonna have to wait and see how all of this shakes out.

I'm reserving judgement until after we know how, exactly, they are going to implement these changes. (the wording so far is very vague, not enough to go on) As long as they make it so overlapping stuns do not, in fact, overlap (i.e. the second stun doesn't override the previous stun), we won't be getting stunned any longer than we are now. Resolve will still fill up the same, it just won't get instantly filled accidentally. If the stuns are allowed to overlap, on the other hand, then it all depends on the formula they use for determining how much resolve is added. Ex: 2 stuns used at the same time will add very little extra resolve, while a second stun used right near the end of the first will add almost as much resolve as a single stun. Done right, hitting someone with a second stun while they still have 1 second left on the previous stun should still fill your resolve completely instead of stunning you for 7 seconds without filling your resolve. Basically: 800 resolve from one stun. Maybe only 100 extra from a second stun cast at the same time as the first, i.e. resolve is still 100 shy from full. 800 resolve from stun 1, stun 2 cast towards the end of the first stun's duration. As long as it adds at least 200 resolve, resolve is filled. If this is the case, better players will still be rewarded for timing their stuns correctly. Hitting the second stun before the first is broken will have the target stunned for 7 seconds while filling resolve; wait for the first stun to end and you can stun them for the full 8 seconds. (assuming CC breaker isn't used) As long as they take a nuanced approach to the resolve changes, the only end effect will be that less experienced players aren't penalized as much, while more experienced players will still perform better. We won't suddenly have to sit through 2 stuns before we can break the third. If this does end up being the case, I'll be sure to eat my hat for you fellas, but I'm not worried yet.