To clear the confusion up let me start off by saying that an AC that can fulfill multiple roles does not in fact entitle that AC to fulfill those mulitple roles all at once in a TTK system pre and post 1.2. However, the option to fulfill those roles as well as the pre 1.2 expertise and skill tree arrangements allowed them to do so. So in essence, hybrid specc'ing and hybrid roles were more viable in a TTK system pre 1.2 because of the two (expertise + skill trees). But aside from that I agree with you that choosing an AC now (1.2) that has the option to fulfill more than one pvp role does not mean that the AC is both: (1) successfull in that role and (2) should be pushed towards one role over the other. This is where the TTK system gets even more confusing in terms of the AC and its viability towards a pvp role (dmg/heal/tank). Even I have biased opinions on such matters but I will try to make the most justified argument I can. In regards to point (1), some ACs are more/less successfull in one role than the other roles it has. You can kinda see this case in ACs like Powertech/Vanguards, DMG/DPS spec they are more viable than the tank roles in a TTK system. The other important things to get from this is that their tank role isn't the best out of the three TANK-capable ACs. So this puts the AC in problems regarding point (1) and point (2). But you need to remind yourself that the fact that it has an oppurtunity to fulfill more than one role gives it versatility in TTK but also gives it problems. This of course creates a giant ball of confusion and frustration for all those players who chose that AC. They now have to ask themselves what skill tree is currently the best in 1.2 TTK system? and why is it that the skill tree/pvp role I desire is weaker in comparison to other ACs?. While at the same time game designers and developers are thinking of a solution to balance out that AC while not making it completely OP. You can see the dilemma here. But to answer your questions regarding DPS/DMG speccs who are apart of the ACs with hybrid roles. The confusion can easily be seen from my explanation above. - Should these speccs be thrown out or useless? No, of course not. - Do they need work? Yes. - Should they be removed for competitive pvp? No, I for one still see people who prove me wrong time and time again (e.x. Tank Vanguard on my server is so friggen hard to bring down, the time my party spends trying to kill him is wasted and me as a healer is pretty much out of power healing my party and we all die one by one). - Do certain ACs fit better with others or support others better? Yes, an aswer for this would take hours to figure out which is which. - Should one role be favored over another? I don't know, but depending on the situation and group mechanics one role should be favored over another. If I had a stealth group, a dps operative is and should be more favored in objectives than a heal specc'd one. Or if I had a frontal assault group, a heal spec operative should be more favored than a dps spec. It all depends on the objective and situation. And I'll end this post by telling you each specialization is unique and viable if used in the correct manner. Here's an example (While the majority of my team was preoccupied in the middle of Civil War, and we left two team-mates in the eastern turret. Low and behold they got hit by 2 smugglers and were decimated and the turret captured. We ended up losing that warzone. You tell me if a healing smuggler would have let them cap fast enough for my team to call reinforcements. Or if a Jedi Sentinel was spotted miles away for my team to call it out and send reinforcements would cause us to win?)

Thank you for providing a general explanation of the direction most people are going towards (whether it is true or false). However, I disagree with you when make a claim that we "either accept it or quit online gaming" all the whilst support a secondary claim that "things are not acceptable for most players". This is biased in respect to the original post that I delved into regarding TTK and pure DMG/HEAL/TANK roles. If you're going to make a claim that it is unacceptable support it better with facts other than saying most people do this or that. What is true is that a general population is playing the game. And also true that a lot of people desire to single queue into warzones. What is both true and false is that things are unacceptable to the general population. You made the claim that things are unacceptable to the general population...What things?? since you're going to make a claim on a complex issue you have to care the subtle details driving each aspect of it. Don't just generally complain for the sake of complaining. I'm not going to delve into the future of SWTOR TTK and PVP all I wanted was an intelligible discussion of how we can improve on the current system? But what is seems like is people complaining about things they don't understand. When I get responses like this, I just shake my head because this forum is built for the SWTOR gaming population to discuss important topics.

Pure damage ACs are only Marauders/Sentinels or Snipers/Gunslingers. In the skill trees of each AC you can't find a tank or healer role in each. This is the dilemma of Pure damage ACs and currently (as most people believe) its greatest asset (as other people believe). But to say damage roles just faceroll is true as well as false. True against unorganized people roaming warzones left and right just trying to 1v1 anything. False in an organized manner. If you go up against any successful premades the group composition is not only damage rolles because the TTK system is changed when you add well a played Healer or Tank role in the game situation. So what I'm assuming is that the TTK system is more favorable for those who organize themselves properly. And to add to my point, I am not posting this in defense of a Marauder/Sentinel AC but rather informing people on how to address and give feasible input towards a better TTK system that is not skewed towards one role.

For discussion purposes I advise you re-read what I posted in the body of my original post and not just skim through each paragraph and look at the final conclusion. The very fact that you made no attempt to even explain a TTK system and its pros/cons means you have no point to argue. Rather you to sit here and discuss a certain situation in PvP in a specific manner of the TTK system that goes along with it. Well then to discuss said situation. First of all, the PvP game design is not catered to a 2v2 situation. Secondly, the Advanced Classes you are talking about and their role in the TTK system, specifically around a 2v2 situation, is hard to expound without first asking some questions. Questions like what gear were each classes using?, who got the jump first? did the healer interrupt or CC? did the tank taunt and/or CC? Simply posting that a healer gets cleaved even with protect from 100% max health to 0% max health (I'm assuming) is not a credible post. Please get your facts straight before posting such situations. Here is my input on said situation. If 2 damage roles were specifically targetting me as a healer with protect, the incorrect and only outcome is me staying alive. Let me ask you a question. If there was an Arena system with 2v2 queing in it...should a healer and tank be able to survive two damage roles? If the answer is yes, then why should there be a damage role in the first place? But to bring it back to point the situation you should be addressing is how far behind do the tank and healer roles lag in comparison to damage roles? As these are more feasible in a TTK system.

This is in addendum to what I originally posted. - To clear things up the points I made about Hybrid ACs were twofold. 1) There are hybrid ACs that specialize in two skill trees (for example Madness/Lightning Sorcs). 2) There are ACs with hybrid roles, or in other words two or more roles in PvP (for example Healer/Damage, or (Tank/Damage). Point 1 is emphasized in pre 1.2 concerns of devs for Hybrid specializations. Point 2 is much more complex in a TTK system as certain roles are picked by each player and is dependent on the situation (group make-up, player capability). But in addressing both points, I made the conclusion that pure PvP roles need more focus in the TTK system as before (pre 1.2).

- There has been much talk about how TTK works and alot of confusion and frustration on its mechanics. First of let me start by saying TTK is a system more complex than everyone thinks it is and game designers and players should know its very very hard to perfect in any MMO. With that said I will discuss the role of a TTK system and its concern to Advanced Classes, particularly pure damage ACs. - Second, the TTK system is often misconstrued and interpreted as simply lower than previously expected. This results in people making claims such as, "I am dying too fast, help". At this point, the claim that TTK is too low is biased accordingly and people place blame on the most attractive thing they see (pure damage roles such as Mar/Sent or Snip/Guns). Making these claims without informative knowledge on other AC roles (Healers/Tanks and Hybrids) is what seems to be the case for the general population in these forums. Note that TTK is a dynamic system that encompasses HEALER/TANK/PURE DAMAGE roles as well as in-game mechanics/situations. - Moving on point I will start with Healer ACs. From a healer perspective 1.2 has changed to attune itself closer in line to other AC roles (Tank and pure Damage). Before 1.2 there were cases of healers being able to heal themselves to the point of fulfilling a tank AC role (e.g. Commandos/Mercs who could outheal the brunt of the damage from 3 people) and in other cases beating the damage AC roles in a number race (e.g. sorcs/sages in a combined effort doing 1.5x more healing output in comparison to damage output). In 1.2 this was addresssed with the increase in PvP damage expertise and the pure damage AC roles (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling) that dealt it. - From a tank perspective 1.2 has given more importance to tanks. With the necessary decreased healing output of 1.2 it gives importance to a Tank's role in the TTK system. As mentioned above healers now need to be able to survive an assault from an array of pure damage AC roles and tank ACs while healing other party members. This is where tank AC roles come into place. They can absorb the damage dealt to healing ACs all the while doing some damage themselves. Now to make a comparison before 1.2, tank ACs remained relatively the same with the exception of a boost in damage reduction. This resulted in tank ACs being able to do moderate amount of damage WHILE surviving alot longer than pure damage ACs. 1.2 fixed this with the expertise changes in pvp damage reduction, bringing it closer in line with pure damage roles so that they may be able to compete as well. - Before I discuss pure damage roles, let's take a look at hybrid ACs and their role pre 1.2. Before 1.2 hybrid classes reigned over others in importance to pure ACs. If you take a look at the general discussion of hybrid specc'ing, the PvP game designers wanted to take out the prominence of hybrid specs as it allowed more benefits in comparison to pure damage/healing/tanking ACs. For example, hybrid ACs would be able to tank and produce a sizeable amount of damage, eliminating the need for pure damage ACs (Tanksins/Tanksdows). Similar to this was the ability for a hybrid AC to heal and produce as well a moderate amount of damage (Sorcs/Sages). The disparity in numbers was shocking enough that the game designers felt it would detiorate the role of any pure class and a surge of hybrid ACs would be rolled (Sorcs/sagees). I myself would see a pure DPS class do #1 in damage (as expected) and right below a hybrid AC at #2, whilst at the same time healing as much as he/she DPS'd. After 1.2 the line between the AC roles were delineated so that hybrids were not viable. But I still may be wrong on some ACs What do all these roles have to do with TTK, 1.1, and 1.2? - Before I discuss the main point of this post regarding pure damage ACs, I will point out the complexity of TTK in MMOs as it refers to tanking/healing/damaging roles. I would like to bring about an example a guildie of mine made. In a TTK system a tank guarding a target has absorbed 50% of the targets damage received. Great, the role of the tank was fulfilled as he did his part protecting his friend. Or a healer has healed his allies' health from 20 to 50% max health. Great, the healer fulfilled his role in keeping his allies' alive. But wait what about the role of a DMG class? If I took the target out from 80 to 20% max health this does not matter. Why? The target is not dead. And my role? Not fulfilled as my team has to worry about more obstacles to deal with (more healing and more protecting). So what does this have to do with the TTK system? Alot. Since let's say we increase the TTK by double. Who is primarily affected in this system? The pure damage roles. Why you say? - Let's take a look at the previous examples and think, the penalty is too great if a damage role did not take out a target. This causes a big rift and places more benefits to classes that excel in more than one role, as certain classes did - tanks can both damage/protect, healers can damage/heal. Pure damage classes can only damage. This system would be quite unfair wouldn't it? If you compare the damage role and how it interacts with the TTK system alongside the other two roles it serves only a sole purpose. Why not make its role more relevant? 1.2 is not a perfect solution but did so and as said before made clear the roles of pure damage ACs to healing and tank ACs. This is where the complaints of other ACs come in to (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling), as before hybrid ACs were more viable (Mercs/Comms), (Juggs/Guards), (Sages/Sorcs), (Sins/Sdows). - So lets discuss pure damage ACs. Before 1.2 only 1 of the two pure damage ACs were viable and even then some hybrid ACs were beating them out in utility and usefullness in a TTK system. What's the point of a pure damage AC if not to have some damage output? Sure you would see some (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling) outdamaging other ACs in terms of numbers here and there but what good would that be in PvP if a damage role couldnt stop and heal themselves or someone else in PvP. Or how about if a pure damage role took they same amount of damage as some tank ACs did and be able to protect/taunt targets? In pre 1.2, Mars/Sents had the same defensive CDs as they do now, and their survivability was the same as it is then than it is now (1.2). However the changes that everyone is complaining about is the (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling) viability in being able to outdamage a AC that can spec into two roles (tank/dmg, heal/dmg). I am not saying that ACs should all do the same damage if specc'd according to a AC role, but what I am saying is that a TTK system should in fact bring in line balance for a pure damage/tank/healing AC. In other words a pure damage AC such as (Mar/Sent or Snip/Gunsling) should be able to fulfil their role better than other ACs who have an option to choose another AC role (tank/healer). - The current TTK system as it stands isn't perfect and there are AC differences that make each unique to a particular role but to complain that one role is more viable than the others is a simple mistake. If people stopped complaining and brought all AC roles in a warzone and play them well they would notice the importance of each role in TTK. The fact that BW made the pure damage AC classes more viable 1.2 is not a reason to complain about the AC at all. The complaints should be made first if they know full well the other AC roles (tank/healers) are lagging behind severely.It's funny even to make remarks such as people suggesting that a warzone composed of one AC role of a Marauder/Sentinel. They would surely pay the price if they went up against a well balanced group of tanks/healers/damage ACs. If you notice premades aren't just composed of 1 or even 2 roles, but rather most successful premades encompass all AC roles as it stands better in a TTK system.

Since you have the final say in all matters and it is you, Daniel Erickson, who has claimed responsibility by tagging your name with the final 1.2 changes (e.g. removal of ranked warzones)... All I have to say is PvP was wrongly implemented. Mainly the biggest issue here is the new rewards system. The advertisement of 1.2 and general changes were CENTERED around a ranking queue system. I understand the need to remove a ranked warzone system due to optimization on how ranked queue'ing works. But how could you make the mistake of keeping a rewards system with content that is not even out yet???? The new pvp rewards system did not address any of the issues discussed in this board and is specifically catered towards an absent ranked warzone system. Not regular queue'ing...please fix this mistake.

"The fact that you refer to the score screen as 'dps meters' proves to me that you have no concept of damage vs dps, situational differences or class balance. You also don't seem to know what an anecdote is. So please post this evidence of yours, with all the stats from the warzones you've gathered. Indicate all the players' level of gear, specs, and playstyle. Then show us how you've analyzed it to determine that all BH dps specs are overpowered. Otherwise your post is just a whine" Righto, you obviously know the concept of damage/dps, situational differences/class balances. Are you a developer? Have you contributed anything other than what you say as well? Right. You say my argument is moot based on dps meters on a warzone yet you refer to one? Since you DO know the differences post something other than that screenshot. The fact is you are defending my original post because it has a clear argument made towards your class. I see that you are defending it, good job that's the first instinct in counterfuting a claim. To say that it is false based on what you know and not observing is doing nothing towards my aim. DATA CRUNCHING. And yes this takes a long time so stop using the no proof no problem answer.

"Going solely by the score screen, which is apparently the definitive answer on what is OP or not according to you, BHs are not always top. I've seen screenshots of sages doing over 900k in 1 WZ; never seen a BH do that. Your argument in the OP is nothing more than a whine based on pure anecdotal evidence which may or may not be accurate, in a WZ where you may or may not be good or bad, versus other players that may or may not be good or bad. In short, BS" Anecdotal evidence? No. Cany you provide a good example of what a definitive answer is? Cause experience = subjective. And a score screen with meters isn't in your world I guess. You have a screenshot of 900k sage dps? great, post it and tell me the patch it was made in. Again I see the same argument over and over. Range > Melee if left un-interrupted. Do some data-crunching and get back to me first with "definitive" answers. I won't post my findings just yet with the wz data gathering since it's a crapload of info. On a side note, I will most likely re-test these findings with the new ranked WZs. But again since this is all hearsay, you guys just have to see for yourself as I stated earlier in my post.

Developers, take a look at the Bounty Hunter/Trooper class. You guys claim to have the data sheet across the boards on every server, and the warzones along with them. Please tell me you don't see in every warzone or even raid ops, in the #1-#3 most damage dealt column is almost always a BH/Trooper - DPS specialization. As far as PvP goes, Mercenary/Commando DPS specs and Powertech/Vanguard DPS specs have put up disgusting numbers in the warzones placing almost always in the top 3 damage dealt positions. Speaking from experience as a DPS battlemaster grouped up with other battlemasters (2 marauder + 1 operative + 1 sorcerer) all dps, we were always topped by the BH/Trooper classes. As far as PvE goes, in general chat or looking for group chats, almost always the same consistent tell is being made. Looking for DPS class to fill HM raid/flashpoint...MERCERNARY/TROOPER preferred. Why is this happening? Simply do the math yourselves. The numbers put up by the BH/Trooper class/dps specs are far ahead of those so called other DPS class/specs. Heck, I even went into a warzone winning with 6 BM or above classes none BH/Trooper and got served in the DPS meters by a Vanguard and another Commando specc'd into crit DPS. So I took the time to roll a Powertech DPS alt myself...and to no surprise, the numbers are the same. In 1-49 bracket. As a lvl 21 dps powertech I managed to outdamage each class by far, unless of course its a BH/Trooper player. Some of those being high 40s. This has gone on way too long for someone to say anything, and if the flame/trolll posts ensues that this need not be fixed, then do the math yourself or roll a BH/Trooper class to find out. I will do data analysis after each WZ I am in and do a spreadsheet with screenshots for you guys in the future refences cause this is just too much.

Developers, take a look at the Bounty Hunter/Trooper class. You guys claim to have the data sheet across the boards on every server, and the warzones along with them. Please tell me you don't see in every warzone or even raid ops, in the #1-#3 most damage dealt column is almost always a BH/Trooper - DPS specialization. As far as PvP goes, Mercenary/Commando DPS specs and Powertech/Vanguard DPS specs have put up disgusting numbers in the warzones placing almost always in the top 3 damage dealt positions. Speaking from experience as a DPS battlemaster grouped up with other battlemasters (2 marauder + 1 operative + 1 sorcerer) all dps, we were always topped by the BH/Trooper classes. As far as PvE goes, in general chat or looking for group chats, almost always the same consistent tell is being made. Looking for DPS class to fill HM raid/flashpoint...MERCERNARY/TROOPER preferred. Why is this happening? Simply do the math yourselves. The numbers put up by the BH/Trooper class/dps specs are far ahead of those so called other DPS class/specs. Heck, I even went into a warzone winning with 6 BM or above classes none BH/Trooper and got served in the DPS meters by a Vanguard and another Commando specc'd into crit DPS. So I took the time to roll a Powertech DPS alt myself...and to no surprise, the numbers are the same. In 1-49 bracket. As a lvl 21 dps powertech I managed to outdamage each class by far, unless of course its a BH/Trooper player. Some of those being high 40s. This has gone on way too long for someone to say anything, and if the flame/trolll posts ensues that this need not be fixed, then do the math yourself or roll a BH/Trooper class to find out. I will do data analysis after each WZ I am in and do a spreadsheet with screenshots for you guys in the future refences cause this is just too much.