As a raiding veng jugg in mostly rakata, I endorse this message as far as PVE goes.

Exactly. Anyone who isn't raiding isn't contributing to this thread. It is painfully obvious once DPS is full columi/rakata that threat is a serious problem. Especially with how strict enrage timers are, as OP pointed out.

The thing i hate about this build is how you have to waste so many useless points in rage to get to obliterate. Payback, Brutality, Stagger and Ravager are all wastes of points. Also, obliterate does less total damage than shatter, so I'm not sure building your entire spec around getting 1 rage-free force shout every 15 seconds is really worth it. Also, defeaning defense + huddle are great for raiding. Defeaning defense is awesome when you need to offtank and huddle is great for threat mitigation by effectively interceding yourself. Not to mention the general survivability they both give. This is my exact build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101bMZIGMR0uddGRZh.1

I've read everything about it being a DPS loss too, and I just can't follow their logic. The damage from ravage is way more than double assault, and there really isn't anything else to put in that spot in my rotation. I'm only using it once every 18 seconds, so i'm not saying its a top tier ability... but I can't understand how people say any instance where you use it is a loss in DPS (which is what sithwarrior.com seems to argue).

Probably not, but full vengeance spec with a decent tank set (i.e. all t1+ or equivelant) can tank HM FPs no problem. I'm a full vengeance dps raider, with a tank set of random xenotech equiv stuff that people don't want on raids and I can tank any HM FP, not to mention offtank in operations on bosses that require it.

I'm about the same gear as you (full T2+, random T3) and personally I still use ravage. EDIT: the main reason i use ravage is because smash is a 12 second GCD so it doesn't quite fit into my rotation, i just use ravage to replace smash every other rotation. I've tried to simplify my rotations as much as possible so I don't have to think as much about whats on cooldown and can focus more on the raid elements. so here is my basic rotation. Sunder > Impale > Shatter > Sunder > Scream > Smash > Sunder > Impale > Shatter > Sunder > Scream > Ravage this isn't completely sustainable and does require saber throw/enrage periodically. I try to hold off on saber throw and replace ravage or smash with it unless I really need rage immediately. Normally with enrage and a couple saber throws I am totally fine, the only time I can get behind is on fights like sorno where I am interupting a lot... losing 1 rage every cycle really adds up. As for your spec I have the exact same spec except instead of 2/2 in ravager, I have 2/2 in defeaning defense. I find my rotation has 4 impale/shatters between every ravage, so I reset the timer before my next ravage every time save some bad luck here and there, in which case I do lose 1 GCD to either wait for smash to finish its timer or I'll take the time to intercede someone to lower my threat. I also really love deafening defense, intimidating roar is great for trash and boss fights with aoe adds (like the 3rd boss in KP). Also, especially if you are running 8mans, I find that the ideal group is to bring just 1 fully specced tank, and let the vengeance jugg do offtanking on fights that require it (ie jarg/sorno). With my full set of tank gear and that talent the healers never have a problem keeping me up, even saying the difference isn't that noticable (my tank set is pretty much all exotech/xenotech, overall somewhere around half t1, half t2 equiv). This has worked great for my guild when we've rolled this way, and I think personally as a vengeance jugg it makes you that much more marketable to get raid spots. my 2credits

I raid with a build pretty close to what you have. The only differences are I have 0/2 ravager, I don't understand why everyone seems to include that in their default vengeance PVE build... with the impale/shatter ravage CD reset that talent is 100% useless. Also, I do not have pooled hatred, it sounds good but it just never comes up enough to be worth it imo. What I have instead of those 4 points is 2/2 Deafening Defense, and 2/2 Quake. Deafening defense is helpful because as a vengeance warrior in 8 mans, a lot of the times it falls on you to do some offtanking. Some groups always run with 2 dedicated tanks, but given the option to have a vengeance jugg with a full set of tank gear when needed, most groups will prefer bringing you along. My tank set is a bit behind my dps set (mostly tionese or equivelant, couple scattered columi/rakata), but I can still tank well enough. And of course 2/2 quake is just for the debuff... if you have an assassin or ptech MT then its on you to get that debuff on the boss. Also I don't have any videos but I will say I consistently kill my solo target towards the front of the pack in EV 4th boss... so single target DPS is very competitive.

Karraga's Palace 16man HM - 4th Boss We wiped on him in 16man HM tonight and he would not reset. We reset the instance multiple times, reset the raid, relogged, tried reforming the raid with different people as leaders... and the encounter would not reset. We had a few times happen where our 16man raid was split up and 8 of us were in Hutt Palace (1) and the other were in Hutt Palace (2), where the 2nd ops instance had actually reset. However, we can 100% confirm the operation was set to 16man hardmode. So all in all the bug resulted in inability to reset the instance, and also the instance forcibly splitting our raid into 2 seperate 8man raids. *end result was people logged out of frustration, but we still had one 8man group that went forward and was able to complete the operation. Not possible in 16man though.

All I know is when I use my rakata tech adrenal (+accuracy), I don't seem to average as big of an increase as when I use my rakata attack adrenal (+force). I'm a vengeance Jugg with 101.8% base accuracy. So I'm starting to wonder if our obsession with accuracy might be misplaced too...

I really like your build for rage (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101ZIMMZGMRbdbRdGR.1), but i was wondering if anyone had any input for actually DPSing as rage spec in raids? With gear being about equal how do you compare to other DPS classes? What main rotation do you use? And do you think its viable? I'm asking because I had planned on tanking when I rolled my jugg, but now I'm 38 and it is looking like my guild is really tank heavy... so I may be reluctantly moving over to a DPS role. thanks for putting this thread together!