Let me start off saying that heat and ammo are not the same. Yes, a burn test would show short-term impacts. Please go watch the videos that have been linked in this thread. They should partially convince you of our point. This doesn't even count the fact that blowing through the entire resource pool as quickly as possible is a very bad way to disprove the discrepancy. This issue is more about the impact over longer periods of time due to: 1) The small ability cost differences. 2) The larger pool of high resource regeneration. These two factors will only start to come into effect over a longer time span. The videos linked show how burning through the resources as quickly as possible does actually result in a difference (albeit we have to include the resource regeneration ability imbalance too). If this issue (which is exacerbated in longer fights) has an effect in a burn trial, how is it fine?

We can always convert heat into ammo, instead of the other way round. Your concern to guides, I wouldn't put too much thought into it. Guides are updated and changed with every balance patch. The rotations would also still be relevant, as well as priorities. Most guides also make some sort of reference to the Bounty Hunter counterparts and their resource system (see the guide linked earlier as an example). The UI concern also shouldn't be as relevant. The Bounty Hunter has a fully functioning system, use that one. Sages and Sorcerers use the same resource system (as in, bar), why can't Bounty Hunters and Troopers? Changing individual values also is fairly easy, 1 -> 8, 2 -> 16, 3 -> 25, 4 ->33. I would argue that that requires less work than balancing the ammo system as it currently is, due to the fact that you need to make it easily understandable and are also forced to use decimals at every turn. Compare that to implementing a system that is proven to work and is easy to understand.

Don't withdraw! This issue needs to be fixed (how would you get in trouble?). On a side note: I thought I'd add a link to Dr_kid's thread. He has also been trying to fix this issue, only he is over in the class forums. I will edit the opening post with a link too. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5770270#

I have a thread going on about the heat and ammo disparity in the PvP forums. One kind poster has made videos comparing their Powertech and Vanguard (links to them in the opening post). There are also more calculations there, if people still do not believe there is an issue. Always nice to see awareness about this issue. The only issue I have with your post is that the 8 heat back every 6 seconds is rather irrelevant, since it pays back proportionally to the ability cost. Yes, it is marginally lower % of the total pool, but compared to the lower % cost of the abilities, the point is moot. I don't want to steal attention from this thread by linking mine, it's just there is too much information in my thread for one post. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=587930 I would like to re-iterate, there is a mathematical difference between them. This is not just a graphical bug (as I hope the videos prove).

It is a good fix, the only problem is that it would create a barrier against playing the Trooper. New players coming to the Trooper would be given false information (simplified tooltips). As a result, they wouldn't play the Trooper as well as they could with all the information. This is easily solved by the player doing some research, but there are already a lot of complaints concerning SW: tOR not giving the player enough information to base their decisions off of (e.g. choosing an advanced class). If you didn't simplify the tooltips, well, then you get an overly complicated system for new players. This probably wouldn't be an issue for more experienced players, or players who have a Bounty Hunter, but it could needlessly complicate the class. Every single thing about the class would go into decimal places. Not to mention never actually using complete ammo blocks seems a little illogical, it would feel as if we were keeping the system out of a sense of nostalgic fondness. It would probably just be simpler to convert ammo into heat. Then again, without actually testing your system, I don't know if these are even valid concerns. It is certainly a better suggestion to bring balance to the resource disparity than mine, but it feels as if ammo would be overly complex as a result.

Thanks for the compliment. In hindsight, assuming people read a thread before posting isn't a safe assumption. However, there have been a number of very helpful people in this thread, so it isn't a whole loss. I agree, making ammo out of 100 (or heat out of 12) is the easiest way to go. Since the issue has been around so long, I doubt that will happen. This is why I posted the other two solutions (reduce high regeneration of Bounty Hunter to ~33, or increase high regeneration of trooper from 8 to 7 ammo). I think those are the best three solutions, but feel free to chime in if you find better ones.

The issue is not running out of heat, any class can stay in their high regeneration with enough filler shots. The issue is the amount of filler shots required to stay in the high regeneration zone compared to the mirror class (Trooper). The answer is that the Trooper requires more filler attacks for correct ammo management. Thank you for taking the time to support the issue. This sort of scenario would be quite common in a ranked warzone node fight. As you've said, the Bounty Hunter will come out on top (by a large margin). Yes, it should be "Nerf Bounty Hunters". However, I put "Nerf Mercenaries" to get more attention to the thread (and because the examples in the opening post were with a Mercenary and a Commando).

The main issue with this imbalance is that only the Empire can take advantage of it. Sure, smash and bubble stuns are an issue. However, both factions can take advantage of them. (This is not me saying smash and bubble stuns are balanced). Just because this issue has been around for a long time, does not mean it should not be fixed. If smash and bubble stun stayed this way for a year, people wouldn't stop complaining about them. The other problem is that there is no clear way of seeing this issue. A smasher might see their damage go up by 100k, but a Bounty Hunter will get smaller and more numerous benefits that can't easily be shown on the scoreboard. This creates the insidious loop where Bounty Hunters will swear that there is no issue, and that they are just "that good". There would be a lot more people abusing the Bounty Hunter regeneration system if it was widely known. A lot of people do not know about it, and as such do not abuse the discrepancy to it's full potential. With the last flavour of the month being Pyro Powertech (Assault Specialist Vanguard), there are a lot of players with a Trooper or a Bounty Hunter character. Also, since Bioware have said that they are planning to buff Mercenaries in the mobility department, some players are being preemptively gearing their character. I want to stop the over-abuse of heat before it even happens. This is mainly because the imbalance heavily favours one faction (Empire). Then we get to the point where many people have Empire as their main, and do not want a fair chance for the opposition. Then they refuse that there is even a problem at all (despite evidence to the contrary).

Mercenaries need to be nerfed. They give an unfair advantage.

Thank you again for another great video to support the cause! I have edited the opening post with links to both videos. Hopefully this will help resolve this issue, once and for all. Always nice to see more people posting to support the cause. Keep it up guys, and eventually we may see some much needed changes. To all the others that have viewed the thread and not posted: Please post, whether it be in support of, or against, this issue. More discussion needs to be had and viable solutions found so that this can be fixed for fair PvP.

Not really, you would have what WoW had in Vanilla with Shamans and Paladins. It would just make balancing factions even harder than it currently is. On topic: Please continue to post your support (or lack thereof). This issue needs to be fixed to be able to have a competitive PvP experience. Or, if there really is no difference, it needs to be proved so these threads stop being made.

Most of the people against faction balance "swear they saw a post somewhere". Please keep searching so that we can close this matter. From the values given in-game, we are lead to believe that Bounty Hunters and Vanguards are not the same.

My bad, I was thinking of times between 0 and 0.5. Since we have provided a video of the imbalance, perhaps you would like to prove your point with a video? There is no reason to assume that Keren has any sort of inside knowledge on the matter. They know that Bounty Hunter regeneration goes to 40, and find that mark on the ammo system. Furthermore, the ammo regeneration values they put do not match up. They put: 0.625 0.375 0.25 0.625 / 12 = 0.05208 compared to 0.6 / 12 = 0.05 which would be equal to the Bounty Hunter (5 / 100 = 0.05) 0.375 / 12 = 0.03125 compared to 0.36 / 12 = 0.03 which would be equal to the Bounty Hunter (3 / 100 = 0.03) 0.25 / 12 = 0.0208 compared to 0.24 / 12 = 0.02 which would be equal to the Bounty Hunter (2 / 100 = 0.02) If we accept that they are correct in their regeneration zones (which they give no proof), then we must accept they are correct in their regeneration values as well. They are incorrect in these values (hover over tooltip for proof). The other alternative is that they are incorrect in their regeneration zones (which is highly likely), then we must also accept they are incorrect in their regeneration values (which is correct). The fact that they incorrectly post the regeneration values leads us to believe they are incorrect on the regeneration zones. You cannot take one value they give and ignore the other. If you believe they are correct, then Troopers need their regeneration adjusted to be brought in-line with Bounty Hunters. You cannot argue that no change would be necessary using that guide as evidence. To your question: Considering the Trooper and the Bounty Hunter started off as two different classes, yes I believe they would leave it unchanged. The choice for mirrors came after the two resource systems were implemented and they made them as similar as possible and left it. Please try to refrain from attacking me personally and stick to countering my arguments. As for mathematical skills: 12 - 3.8 = 8.2

I would like to start off by thanking Holmes for this video. I cannot produce one since I do not have access to the game at the moment. I hope this convinces most people that are on the fence. There is a real issue here. This should be minimised. If one starts before a regeneration, and the other starts after. The person who starts before would miss out on a regeneration later in the example. I can show this by moving the Powertech's (or Vanguard's) first regeneration to T = 0. This would then cause them to miss out on the T = 3 regeneration (prior to their attack) and the result would be the same. This should hold true for the video (unless an absolute worst-case occurred for the Vanguard, which is unlikely). My point is, either you have two regenerations on your first attack (T = 0, T = 1) or two on your second (T = 2, T = 3). You cannot have two on both. This should hold true for the video (1, 2, 1, 2, etc....). The Trooper has a regeneration threshold of 33%. As stated in my opening post, 33% =/= 39%. The issue I can come up with in your example, is that alacrity and talents both affect the cast time of rapid scan. This may be what is throwing off your examples. You need to stick to abilities that use the GCD because then the time to execute will always be 1.5 seconds. If you want an example on Commando vs Mercenary, return to the opening post. That has two examples with both the Commando and Mercenary using GCD only abilities. The Mercenary comes out on top. If it has been stated that they are the same resource system, please provide proof. I feel we have provided a sufficient amount of evidence to overcome the Burden of Proof. Class balance is fairly subjective. Faction balance is not. The fact that Mercenaries and Powertechs may or may not be in a good spot compared to other classes is irrelevant. The Empire should not be better than the Republic. I want to thank the other people that have posted their support, and I want to urge others to do so. This issue needs attention for PvP to improve. If you can, also post which solution you think is the best (or post a new solution if you feel all options are terrible).

Imagine how all the Commandos feel then. They do exactly the same as you. Except worse. Is it fair that the Republic mirror (key word) is worse? Yes, Mercenaries may be in a bad spot. Making one faction better than the other is not the correct way to go about balancing a game. This issue needs to be addressed before any sort competitive PvP can flourish.

See my examples in the opening post for some examples. Another easy example is a Powertech using Flame burst 3 times vs a Vanguard using Ion Pulse 3 times: Time (s) Powertech Vanguard T = 0 0 + 16 = 16 12 - 2 = 10, T = 1 16 - 5 = 11, 10 + 0.6 = 10.6, T = 1.5 11 + 16 = 27, 10.6 - 2 = 8.6, T = 2 27 - 5 = 22, 8.6 + 0.6 = 9.2, T = 3 22 - 5 = 17, 17 + 16 = 33 9.2 + 0.6 = 9.8, 9.8 - 2 = 7.8, Sorry for the lousy format (regenerate resources every second, spend every 1.5 seconds). As you can see, after three attacks the Vanguard is already in the middle regeneration zone. Yes, the Vanguard will get out of the middle regeneration zone when T = 4, but the point is that the Powertech is still in his high regeneration zone by a fairly large margin. You see the same thing with continuous use of these attacks when swapping into the low regeneration zone. The Vanguard has to do: Ion Pulse -> Ion Pulse -> Free Attack (to manage their ammo). The Powertech can safely do: Flame Burst -> Flame Burst -> Flame Burst. This is fairly important because it affects how much pressure each class can put out. In 3 seconds the Bounty Hunter already has the advantage. The longer the fight, the bigger the advantage will get.

Isn't the whole point of Ohoe that you never see him? And that Satanus guy isn't that good. More average than anything. His brother on the other hand...

Played properly, neither have an overheating problem. The problem is that a Bounty Hunter can do more before overheating due to higher maximum regeneration zone, and that the Bounty Hunter can do it more frequently due to lower ability costs. The problem is the same for any Trooper tree compared to any Bounty Hunter mirror tree. The Bounty Hunter will always outperform (assuming equal skill).

I like the reference. Ammo has 12 solid blocks. Heat is one continuous bar. At a glance, it is generally easier to tell which is closer to the limit of their higher regeneration zone.

Please re-read my opening post. Even if they carry the decimals behind-the-scenes, Bounty Hunters still have a higher maximum regeneration zone. From tests that other people have done, it is implied that they do not carry the decimals behind-the-scenes. Again, I refer you to my opening post (specifically, the examples) for an easy test to check if heat and ammo are the same. If you believe this is not the case, please bring proof instead of assertions.

The fact that one bar fills up and the other empties is irrelevant. Heat could start at 100 and go down (with the exact same values) and it would still be a better resource system than ammo. I had hoped that I had proved that by now. My post was to explain that other people (i.e. not I) find ammo easier to manage due to it's discrete nature, as opposed to heat. As a result of finding the resource easier to visually manage, they think that they are doing better on a Trooper than on a Bounty Hunter. This is not the case. If you firmly believe that there is absolutely is no difference between heat and ammo, except that one goes up and the other goes down, please give some sort of proof. If you do, I will be happy to (try to) refute your argument. Also, if you find error with any of my reasonings, feel free to point them out.

As I have previously stated, this is an issue with the faction. Having one faction demonstrably better than the other is an extremely large issue. A lot of people want a fun and competitive PvP experience, being forced to roll Empire to get that is not fair. Also, the issues you speak of are in regards to other classes, not the same class. Buffing Bounty Hunters or Troopers without fixing one of the underlying causes will only exacerbate the problem. Since you did not state otherwise in your post, I can only assume that you accept the difference between ammo and heat. If that is so, why do you think it is fine to be kept this way? If not, why not? From what I gather, many people find the discrete nature of ammo easier. Probably because you only have to worry about smaller numbers and ammo is visually represented better than heat. For example, there are clear breaks between each ammo, but no breaks every 10 heat (or at all). Once again, feel free to discuss or complain about something previously brought up in this thread. However, heat and ammo are the focus. So please also try to put your thoughts on heat and ammo in each post along with whatever else you want to say.

Yes, those differences do need to be looked at too. However, I do not have concrete values for all the ability animations and the mirrors, and so I cannot put forward a (good) case. From what I understand though, most of the glaring errors have been fixed. This is why I am prioritising heat and ammo over the animation delays, since I believe it to be a bigger balance issue. The reason I named the thread "Nerf Mercenaries" was for two reasons: 1) Because I want to nerf Mercenaries (and Powertechs). 2) Leaving out "and Powertechs" would probably result in more views, and therefore more attention to the issue. In my opening post I said there are three ways to solve the problem: 1) Nerf Mercenaries and Powertechs (give the same high regeneration zone and ability costs as a Trooper). 2) Buff Commandos and Vanguards (give Troopers 5 ammo cells of high regeneration). 3) Make ammo and heat the same thing. Solution 3 seems the most sensible to me, but since it has been over a year it probably will not happen. As a result, I would prefer solution 1 (nerf) to solution 2 (buff). The reason I am bringing this up now, is because of all the talk of ranked warzones and the need for class balance for them. Most people seem to be ignoring that we must first achieve faction balance before we can even hope to achieve class balance. I want justice for Commandos and Vanguards. Please feel free to go more in-depth on your feelings on heat and ammo.

When I was doing my calculation, I assumed the MH pistol and the assault cannon had the same chance to trigger Riposte. I also did not know how many shots were fired and so left that area blank instead of using incorrect calculations. If you use my result in the Mercenary calculation you should get a similar result: Mercenary 1 - (((1 - 0.05) ^ 5) * ((1 - (0.67 * 0.05)) ^ 5)) = 0.3474, 1 - ((1 - 0.05) * (1 - (0.67 * 0.05)))= 0.081825 (chance for one attack from each weapon to trigger Riposte) Commando 1 - ((1 - 0.05) ^ 7) = 0.30166, 1 - (1 - 0.05) = 0.05 (chance for one attack to trigger Riposte) As you can see, there is approximately (((0.3474 - 0.3017) / 0.3017) = 0.15147) 15% more Riposte triggers for the Mercenary compared to the Commando. This is not insignificant, but it is there to balance out the higher potential damage. The problem you had was that you probably did: (((Commando Riposte Trigger / Mercenary Riposte Trigger) * 100) = ) which should come out to ~87%. The reason you didn't get this value was because you used 62% in you off-hand calculations (incorrectly), instead of (0.67 * 0.05) since only attacks that hit can trigger Riposte. Yes, the Mercenary does not critically hit on both attacks as often. This is because they have higher potential damage (lower potential damage too). My point is that they will deal more damage (because of OH hits) more often, which makes them stronger. What needs to be found out is the difference in damage of an assault cannon critical hit vs a critical hit MH + normal OH hit. Then we can see how game-breaking (or not) the issue really is. When (if) you reply, please also include something that relates to the heat vs ammo discrepancy. This thread is (mostly) about heat vs ammo so I would appreciate it if you tried to stick to it. On that note, is everyone really fine with one faction being clearly superior? (Since most people seem to play Empire, I can understand why.)

The increased chance of giving retaliation/riposte is the off-set of having the higher damage potential. It is a disadvantage, but it will only happen an extra 3% (6.7% for inquisitors/consulars) of the time unless the target stacks defense. Mercenaries do not have less ability to stack power, as the weapon calculations show, since they do the same average damage without any additional accuracy for the off-hand weapon. The issue of surge not applying to attacks works both ways though. If a Commando doesn't critically hit, then they do not critically hit. If a Mercenary does not critically hit, they can get their off-hand to critically hit and salvage some damage. On attacks that use both weapons: A 40% critical hit chance (bit high but for ease of calculations) means a Commando will critically hit 40% of their attacks. A 40% critical hit chance means a Mercenary will critically hit at least one of their attacks 56.08% of the time (1 - ((1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.268))). The whole issue in the heat against ammo debate, is that the regeneration is exactly the same. The Bounty Hunters get reduced heat costs in comparison and a higher high heat regeneration zone. Those two bonuses coupled with the same regeneration is the issue. The Bounty Hunter can recover from their rotation faster than the Trooper, resulting in less rapid shots and more flame bursts/unloads. This advantage also helps with vent heat (50 / 16 = 3.125) compared to recharge cells ( 6 / 2 = 3). Each of the advantages are small, but all together they make a marked difference between the two classes. As a result of this, any Empire team with a Bounty Hunter will always out-perform a Republic team with a Trooper (assuming equally skilled teams as a result of a fixed matchmaking system). Rail shot will do the same damage assuming the same gear and the same enemy.