I agree wholeheartedly- which is why I proposed a tweak to matchmaking rather than attempt to "ban" premades. For those who suggest "we'll suffer due to our server lacking population to support this concept"- the massive numbers of transfers over the past 9 months indicate that many players "suffer" on lesser populated servers anyway- thus the number of transfers. Oftentimes the reply is "make your own premade"- and once again, I agree- this is fun. But this shouldn't diminish the potential for those who choose to queue solo- whether for lack of time to coordinate a group with their window of opportunity to play at any given time. Its obvious at this juncture that those defending the current scenario just don't want to experience an even playing field- and granted, any competition will provide participants who seek any advantage possible- which is understandable. But what's also understandable are the numbers of participants who seek an enjoyable, competitive environment for casual pvp and fail to find it in the current environment. And they stop queuing- which, once again, leads to longer queues for those who wish to participate.

This thread is regarding the long lasting debate as to whether or not premades belong in unranked warzones. Both sides of the debate have valid points & concerns. Players by all means should be allowed- even encouraged- to play with their friends & guildmembers in an organized fashion. However, when a player queues solo for warzones, he/she should encounter a scenario that provides somewhat of an even playing field for all involved- this ensures that the deciding factors are skill, awareness and the synergy of the team provided. A fairly simple modification to the existing queue process could fix this- at least to a certain degree that doesn't favor either solo or premade queuing. When a premade enters the queue for warzones, they are recognized (this potential should already exist, as it is consistently implemented for ranked queues) and will be prompted to enter a warzone when an equally sized premade is queued, and are placed on opposing teams. What are the positives for this potential solution? *More balanced factions should be present for the warzone *No particularly offsetting factor occurs for solo OR premade entries What are the negatives for a solution of this sort? *Premades may encounter slower queue times on some servers and/or some time slots If this were to become reality and premades DID experience slower queues, what would most likely happen? They would either encourage other groups to enter the queue as well, or decide to queue separately- both of which are viable options NOW yet few do so- which is what has resulted in the never-ending "premades are ruining wz balance" outcry. I like queuing in groups, and also enjoy queuing solo- and this seems like an acceptable compromise. I see no other outcome than more competitive matches, and wouldn't this benefit all in the long run?

The problem of this resolution has many faces. If this were to occur on a consistent basis, many would develop the notion that "lets group up for a series of auto-wins & finish our weekly with little to no actual pvping involved." Plus, it would drastically increase the chance of queuing and being placed in a match already underway with the teams being uneven- and I doubt if any of us like that any more than the frequency with which it occurs now. The simplest solution is a slight matchmaking tweak. If a premade enters a wz queue, they don't get placed until another equal-sized premade is queued, and they are placed on opposite teams. This shouldn't have any noticeable adverse effect on queue times, it encourages more balanced teams, and players can still have the option of grouping with friends or queuing solo.

I don't mind Huttball so much, but there is one thing that nobody can deny: Certain ACs have a tremendous advantage (mostly due to utilities) in terms of scoring with the ball. Particularly speed buffs combined with temporary immunity to CC and increased survivability. I would like to see that possession of the ball itself would grant a debuff of sorts that prevents ANY movement utility- including (but not limited to) speed buffs, rolling, jumps and being pulled to location. I understand that using these utilities is part of the overall strategy, but the outcome of the match is basically predetermined if one team has more players with access to these utilities.

Although I don't mind the presence of premades in warzones, the OP has a point. If the very definition of PVP (hence the "versus" portion of the acronym) is competition, it makes sense to provide separate queues for solo & premade groups. What are the disadvantages? The only realistic consideration that would oppose this theme is extended queue times- particularly on lesser populated servers. This is easily remedied as server transfers are still very cheap. Rift attempted this- but failed. Once a separate queue was established, premades simply vanished- the general consensus was "well, they're just looking to roll unorganized groups of pugs rather than seek competition." Sure, its fun to group with friends, guildmembers or associates- but to diminish the potential for those who would rather solo-queue to have an even playing field isn't working to the benefit of the overall pvp environment. Plus, IF these premades are truly seeking competition, why aren't they queued for ranked?

@ OP: By the context featured in your post, you seem to make it a point that being a "backfill" wasn't a grand experience. Yet you also indicate multiple times that you left matches early. Leaving someone else to backfill. I understand some matches may seem to be a lesson in patience, but if players don't "weather the storm" when the odds are stacked against them, they will NEVER improve as a player. Being assaulted by an organized team is the best way to learn certain aspects- governing the timing & usage of DCDs, for example. Nonetheless, good luck and hang in there.

I've seen players suggest that snipers can't cast outside of cover. I do it all the time- I don't know if its just related to the virulence spec, but I can cast any ability on my taskbar regardless if I'm in cover or not- and I often do, simply to gain an extra second advantage in responding to the opposition. Some are suggesting that only one merc spec relies on cast -time abilities- yet all three do. Arsenal is dependent on tracer missile, IO relies on power shot. In a perfect scenario & an optimal rotation, this wouldn't be an issue- yet most pvp environments don't provide a perfect scenario, and many situations warrant the necessity to use the entire cast time (waiting for the opportunity to apply insta-casts for optimal burst, for example.) There are plenty of tools available already to facilitate what the OP is trying to achieve- multiple CCs, utilities and most importantly- teamwork.

No, don't lower the CDs of interrupts- here's why: What ACs are mostly immune to interrupts (due to majority of abilities being insta-cast)? Jugg/Guardians PT/VGs Sin/Shadows Op/Scoundrels (dps specs) All these examples are in a pretty good spot atm in terms of performance in a pvp environment. Now, what ACs are more vulnerable to interrupts and would feel the effect of such a change? Merc/'Mandos Sniper/Slingers Sorc/Sages Mercs & Snipers in particular rely on raw dps output to offset the vulnerabilities they have in pvp- without this dps output they would offer zero attraction to players in a pvp context. So, IF the CD on interrupts were reduced, the first group of examples would benefit greatly (which they honestly don't need), whereas the second group would suffer (most of which are already in a precarious position in the pvp metagame currently).

I think many choose pvp servers specifically due to the assumption that the population will provide brisk warzone queues and an enthusiastic pvp community. Should they anticipate OWPVP? Yes. Here's the deal though- varying perspectives. Some have the notion that pvp should be competitive in nature. This means that engaging an enemy while they are currently engaged with mobs, etc can be considered "in poor taste", or at the very least, exploiting a cheap opportunity. Stealth specs also provide the means to engage/disengage an opponent if and when they choose. Others will cling together in groups with the intention of pursuing/engaging single players or smaller groups. Some will defend these activities suggesting "its a pvp server, so you should expect it." I'm not suggesting that either perspective is the right one- just observing that not all inhabitants of pvp servers view the potential in the same fashion. All I know is that I've seen more OWPVP on Jung Ma over the past 3 months since I was forced to transfer from Deathwind Corridor. And its been a lot of fun.

I don't expect everyone to share the same perspective, but I look at it this way: Warzone scenarios are like football fields. The area itself requires no change, as it is the participants that provide the challenges and "change of scenery" that the activity requires to stay fresh & entertaining. Would I like to see more warzones introduced? Definitely. But I would prefer more of a developer focus on class balance, and maybe even a new look at the bolstering system for lower-level warzones. But please, NO more Huttball arenas. Too many advantages for specific classes/specs (especially those with anti-CC capabilities, teammate pulls, charges, etc.)

This isn't simply an example of the "pvp community", its just a sampling of the gaming community altogether. Every player seeks a different result from their gameplay- whether relaxation, a temporary diversion from real life, a focus on competition, etc. Find a guild or group of friends to queue with, this way you are ensured at least part of your team is willing to consider strategies & communication. If you're more of a casual player that lacks the time and/or opportunity to develop these types of contacts, simply try to learn to "go with the flow". Set aside (in your own mind) your own personal goals in your gameplay endeavors, and strive to meet and surpass them. Sure, many players utilize the objectives in each warzone and seek victory as their goal, but I don't think I need to convince any of you as to the number of "epeen heroes" and "tunnel vision" players that pervade the queues. Regardless of your approach, don't let others diminish your enjoyment of the time you wish to spend. If it only takes a few minutes to separate yourself from the queue cycle of a notoriously uncooperative team, try that.

All four of us were trying to cap the pylon at the same time- the sin just kept cycling thru us as targets and sapping us one after another. As there were only 17 seconds left before the timer (we had just eliminated the other opposition from the area) one player stealthed was able to prevent 4 of us from capping. I'm not asking for damage reduction to their abilities or anything, I just don't understand the necessity of a stun with no cooldown. I'm familiar with the current culture (from perusing forums as of late) of the 'sin/shadow players trying to defend their class from nerfs- I get that. I was simply trying to see what other opinions have to say regarding the situation.

I perfectly understand the tender balance of maintaining each class' performance in pve aspects of the game, but it seems some have far too many (or too strong) abilities/utilities generating a significant advantage in some objective-based pvp scenarios. Example: Earlier today in a Hypergate wz, a single assassin (in stealth) was able to prevent myself and three teammates from capping the pylon. They would mezz (thus interrupting the cap), swap targets, and continue the process until time ran out. I know it was only one as he was revealed during the explosion at the timer. We had a mercenary drop his AOE stealth scanner, but to no avail. The very fact they have stealth allows them a significant advantage being able to choose when/whom to engage in battle (and I have no problem with this)- but being able to influence the outcome of the match without even popping from stealth seems a bit too much. My question is: would it upset the pve capabilities to provide a cooldown for this ability? And yes, I understand that I have the option to play these classes to take advantage of the situation- but some players (like myself) feel a certain appeal to the playstyle and "feel" of non-stealth classes.

You're disregarding the human "x factor" that influences class/spec choices prior to participating in Season 4. Players have different perspectives. Given the number of weeks between 3.0 release and the onset of Season 4, many used this period to determine what class/spec into which they would invest time & practice with the intention of competing in the new season. There are those who choose a class simply for the appeal- "Jason was a big Boba Fett fan, so he plays Mercenary." Some may choose a specific class due to their familiarity with it over a period of years or months prior to the new season. Yet others may choose something totally different than their previous experiences, simply for a fresh perspective or the "challenge" of mastering a new and different class. Many will utilize the information garnered from the pvp community, forums and other third party sites to influence their choice of class, granting them (what they feel) would provide the best possible advantage. Statistics and demographics can often persuade a skewed bias if depending on no more than the "math" of the situation.

I would just be happy if they tweaked the utility & CC available to sins/shadows. I play every class with a focus on pvp- yet some objective-based pvp scenarios grant too much advantage to sorcs, juggs, and especially sins. At the very least, put a CD on the mezz- guarding a node while mezzed forces one to alert the team ,and use a CC-breaker to gain an opportunity to interrupt the sin/shadow on the node. Then they reestablish stealth mode, and mezz you again. Is this necessary for pve content? I don't want to encourage changes that hinder any class' current ability to contribute to raiding and the like, but it seems a little too much for pvp scenarios. I understand mercs and snipers have their niche in regular wzs, but aside from straight-on dps (or healing in the case of mercs) they lack the tools to contribute in other ways. Sins in particular have EVERY way to contribute, regardless of the objective.

I agree that leaving in-progress WZs should be discouraged- but what can you do about it? Seems the majority of players today want to exploit any advantage possible in pvp- hence FOTM specs, etc. In terms of gamesmanship, this should be expected. However, leaving your team is simply poor sportsmanship- and like many virtues- sportsmanship is often neglected due to the anonymity factor of the internet and those involved. The problem is that this perspective carries over into scenarios when a player feels the odds are against them, they choose to leave as opposed to considering a challenge or using it as a learning experience. So consider this as incentive to stick in there: you will gain MUCH more gameplay experience with the odds stacked against you as opposed to being on a dominating team with little challenges presented. This means that those who make it a point to "tough it out" in these situations will become much better players in the long run than those who only participate in "stacked deck" scenarios.

Jung Ma has MUCH more owpvp activity than PoT5. It may wind down a bit as time goes by, but Yavin dailies tend to encourage lots of small pvp engagements. Glad I came to this server tbh.

Farmer in central Indiana- beef cattle & grain operation. Which is why I play a LOT in winter- not so much in spring & autumn.