Wasn't there just a 30ish page thread about this? Why is anyone still trying to play arsenal in PvP? This is an mmo, and that spec is currently not viable. Doesn't mean the class is useless. Respec and adapt.

Just because you say 'this is fact' doesn't make it fact. If you had've said 'better dps OR more utility', then I might agree with you. Every class potentially brings something better in either of these areas, depending on spec. But both, at the same time? You're reaching, and not by a little.

I'll give you the short version since I'm about to head to work soon. You undervalue mobility and instant casts. Why in the hell would you play a spec that requires you to stand still and cast in order to ramp up your damage when you can play a class that can pillar hump all day long? ESPECIALLY with so much melee running around. You're just asking to be stomped.

Well I lol'd. Not even gonna bother with this one.

Literally noone on my server gets to 500k, because there aren't enough healers. And no, I'm not suggesting you nerf 4 classes, I'm suggesting that if you toned down maras, then all the QQ would stop. I think mercs are fine (note fine does not mean 100% perfectly balanced, just close enough to live with it and provide a fun esperience) relative to anything besides maras and to a lesser extent sins. I'm suggesting that if you tone down maras, give sorc and BH heals a tiny buff (even just increasing the % of healing given through expertise would likely do it and draw people back to playing healers), you'd be right back to as close to balanced as you can reasonably expect any mmo to be. I'm suggesting that what you're experiencing now is a result of there being too many melee classes in WZs without enough heals, guards and peels. I'm suggesting that calling your class worthless because because it isn't the current FotM is ridiculous.

You DID say that sorcs outdamage you. Here, let me quote you: "I'm a good player I routinely get top 3-4 dps but the difference in the top 4 is HUGE as the sorcs/marauders are really so much more potent on top of their ridiculous utility." Pretty sure it was implied that we're talking equal gear and skill. What else would we be talking about? Look, maybe you get consistently outdamaged by sorcs in equal gear, but I don't. And the odd time it does happen, it's certainly not by much. I don't know what to attribute the difference in our experiences to, but I have my suspicions. Lastly, an op should NEVER outdamage a merc in a WZ unless they're doing nothing but ganking for numbers or have a pocket tank and heals. But as you said, you don't know much about them. When you make comments like that, it's hard for me to take you seriously.

This is an idiotic argument. All healers right now are in a bad spot relative to pre-1.2, not just bodyguards (though you can argue ops are doing a bit better). Arsenal is and always has been crap unless you're playing against bads. And pyro is fine but underperforms purely in damage versus PT, but sacrifices survivability, which has been the case since launch. So your suggestion is to simply reroll and play the PT? By that logic wouldn't we all be rerolling marauders? Why would I roll a PT when I can be even more obscenely overpowered? Why would anyone do anything but play FotM? Does any of this mean mercs are bad? No, it means a couple of other ACs are too strong and need to be toned down a bit. SO sick of this idea that other classes are weak compared to FoTM ACs rather than that a few are too strong and just need to be brought back in line. Was anyone complaining about how bad pyro mercs were BEFORE 1.2? Aside from the usual array of whiners that every class has, no. So what changed? Melee is currently too strong, there are 2 melee for every ranged in a typical WZ right now, and that makes life tough for mercs. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY'RE USELESS, OR BROKEN. It just means that something else is out of whack. Let me put it to you another way: if you took maras and sins out of the game right now, would mercs be useless or broken? Clearly not. What about if you played a game where each side had one of each AC, instead of the usual game with 3-4 maras, a couple of sins and a sprinkling of a few other classes? Not then either.

The fact that you claim snipers are superior to mercs right now and that sorcs consistently outdamage you is enough for me to give up trying to convince you. You clearly have your mind made up and won't see reason despite the fact that most of these 23 pages are of people telling you that mercs are just fine relative to anything other than maras and sins. At some point you need to look in the mirror.

You're wrong because you are clearly stuck thinking about gunnery alone. Gunnery is, and always has been, a crap spec for competitive PvP. Pyro is fine and always has been. Respec and adjust. Mercs are not subpar compared to other ranged DPS. Plain and simple.

Here's your problem. You're comparing the class to something that's clearly OP. OBVIOUSLY they're lacking compared to maras/sents right now, EVERY OTHER CLASS IS (with the possible exception of sins). That doesn't mean mercs bad, it means one class is unbalanced and is pissing in your cheerios because there are 4-5 of them in every match. Please display a bit of objectivity instead of whining about how you want everything to be fair. It's an MMO, there will never be strict balance. And as a side note, if there's a pillar around then I completely disagree about your 'average mara beats a good merc' theory. I've proven it to myself over and over. As for this idea that mercs are at the bottom of the PvP ladder, it's nonsense. Mercs may not have as many cooldowns as other classes, but that doesn't mean that they're infective with what they DO bring to the table. If you can't contribute as much as other classes then that's on you. Oh and I wanted to add this: you think mercs were bottom of the barrel BEFORE 1.2? Think we found the problem here....

BHs are not broken. Not by a mile. They are simply a faceroll class that suddenly requires more effort in order to be effective due to melee being FotM, and the playerbase hasn't adjusted. It's pretty shocking how bad most mercs are, and I'm not just talking about tracer spammers. Even most pyros are bad. Can't tell you how many never use cure, never offheal, don't pillar hump and just stand in the open trying to dps, never assist on targets or actively try to create numbers advantages with CC or knockbacks (not to mention peel for others with their knockback). Basically, if you play your merc to only pew pew, you're doing it wrong. It means you care about your numbers more than winning, and you haven't yet figured out how effective your class can be. Yes, maras and sins are too strong right now, but that doesn't mean that mercs are in a bad place compared to anything else. Once the distribution of ranged vs melee in WZs returns to something more even and people stop getting trained, all of this QQ will go away.

A merc's ability to self-heal is dramatically underrated by most players. But that's also because most players don't put the two points into med tech because they prioritize lolcrit. If you're good and aware of your surroundings, it really isn't hard to sneak in a heal or two when you or an ally need them, and they can make all the difference in a skirmish. Can't tell you how many mercs I see ending WZs with 10k or less healing but 6+ deaths while I end it with 1-2 deaths and 60k+ healing, often healing a flag carrier or healer through trouble when needed.

I've got two battlemaster characters, one of which got the title before Ilum made it cake. In other words, I've played a ******** of WZs. I have literally never seen resolve not work as intended. I have no way of knowing whether or not people just don't understand how it works or are experiencing bugs, but I strongly suspect the former.

This just in: glass cannon spec hits hard! Film at 11. Seriously though, pyro PTs literally have two defensive tools, both on long cooldowns. If your group doesn't have the brains to train them, then that's your problem, not the class. Not even guard and heals can keep them up when focussed.

I'm not complaining at all. Everything I've written has been in response to the OP's claim that sorcs are underpowered and aren't a good pvp class. I fully agree with you that sorcs have the tools to compete. I've simply been trying to point out to the OP that strength in 1v1 situations means very little. I disagree that 1v1 matters. Open world 1v1 encounters make up a tiny percentage of any MMO's pvp experience and the game simply cannot be balanced around both 1v1 and group encounters. To do so would mean classes and skillsets so vanilla that it wouldn't be worth playing. It's worth sacrificing some 1v1 balance to create good team gameplay and I agree that this game has very well balanced PvP. Duels are for practising and learning about how to deal with other classes, they are not an indication of class strength or balance in team-based PvP. I also disagree that melee doesn't have the advantage in 1v1 situations. 90% of the time, given equal skill, gear, cooldowns, etc, it will come down to who gets the jump on who, and that's as it should be. But melee have more defensive cooldowns, resets, etc to fall back on, and they have the tools to stay on you if they use them properly. Again, this is because in group play they have to have those tools available to compensate for peels, heals, AoE splash, etc. By no means am I saying that the sorc can't win in 1v1 situations, simply that it's harder to do so than for the melee if the sorc doesn't have terrain they can use to their advantage. Thankfully for sorcs, WZs provide pillars, hazards, changes in elevation levels, etc as tools to help level the playing field, as these are really what provide the opportunity to kite and heal or reset.

Ok, I'm gonna try this one last time before I completely give up. Duels don't matter. 1v1 doesn't matter. They are not balanced. They will never BE balanced. Melee has the advantage in cases of equal gear, equal cooldowns and a level playing field. They HAVE to have this advantage in order for group PvP to be balanced, because they are constantly getting **** on by ranged in objective-based PvP, even if it's just an extra bit of AoE or DoTs from another ranged attacker besides yourself. Just as you should be able to blow them up from ranged while they are attacking someone else, they have to have the tools to take you down when they are able to close on you. This is called balance. All ranged DPS has this problem. They all get stomped by melee if said melee has their cooldowns up and the ranged has no help. Again, this is intended. The developers of this game, like every other MMO, try to balance GROUP PvP. Not 1v1s. Your complaints are not valid. You should not be trying to go toe to toe with melee in WZs. You should not be expecting to consistently win duels vs melee. You do not play a frost mage.

It's HUGE in PvP. In fact to me that's often what separates a good merc from a bad one. I run as pyro and 90% of the mercs I face don't cure off my dots, which is crazy. Aside from what was mentioned above it will also cure off physical effects such as the leg shot root.

When you post stuff like this it becomes quite clear that you really haven't put the time in to learn the mechanics of other classes and therefore how to counter them. Guardians have a 4 sec immunity after they leap, then you're free to go nuts. I'm guessing you just hit knockback as soon as they charge you then wonder why it doesn't work. As for the shadow issues, you're probably running into their 3 second immunity which is on a 60 second cooldown. To claim that none of your cc works is obviously just exaggeration. You need to learn what the animation looks like in order to avoid this, something you clearly haven't done. I'll say it again, if you don't understand the mechanics of other classes, you can't expect to beat them. Plain and simple. Also, I still don't understand why you're arguing about 1v1. Somewhere a dev is rolling his eyes.

Ok, let's try this one more time. 1v1 doesn't matter. Not sure how many times I have to tell you this before you understand it. This game is not balanced around 1v1 and it never will be, so why you think this is important and keep bringing it up is completely beyond me. Anyway, like I said, if you're consistently losing to other classes, you need to look at what you're doing wrong. If you're PvP'ing with a group against other well geared groups and you still can't survive with peels/guard/taunts/heals, then you and your group are doing it wrong. There really is no other explanation, because the experiences of myself and most other people in this thread are more or less the polar opposite of what you're saying. I mean if you're getting trained hard by melee every game then what are your teammates doing to help you, and how are they not stomping on the melee while you kite? Because if 2-3 are on you then that leaves 1-2 teammates open to focus them down, which should be easy. And if, as you say, you really do have trouble killing other ranged classes, then either you're not pillar humping or you're bad. Plain and simple. Because other than MAYBE a pyro merc, any sniper and arsenal mercs should never be able to cast long enough to burst you down. TL: DR is that you're probably doing it wrong.

Did you even read my reply? 1v1 doesn't matter, not even a little, in this game. It doesn't matter in ANY mmo, and it's not an indication of anythng other than rock paper scissors. Honestly though, if you're losing to every other class, then the problem is that you haven't taken the time to understand how other classes and specs work, how and when they use their skills so that you can counter. I really get the impression that you just roflzerg, casting the same spells in the same order for every class, and expect to win. edit: I'm just curious, what spec do you run?

'Huntard' was the name given to the waves of bad hunters that flooded WoW once the class became FoTM in various incarnations. The class seemed to appeal to a lot of casuals and children because of the pet aspect (and big red kitty pew pewing), and as a result there were an enormous number of really, really bad hunters in the game from about TBC onward. And because their bad behaviour was so obvious (especially in PvP), the name caught on and stuck. My main was actually a hunter for most of my time in the game, so I'm not trying to throw it around as an insult to hunters. Just saying that mercs seem to have the same broad appeal that results in attracting a lot of really bad players that can spec arsenal, blow a few things up and feel good about themselves without actually learning how to play the class.

Some seriously silly replies in here. I think that people need to understand that 'good' means 'competitive' not 'able to faceroll everything I see'. And if you think sages aren't competitive, you're just not being honest. First let's address the claims that sages will get stomped by melee. You know what? It's the same for every other ranged class. If they get the jump on you with cooldowns up, there's a good chance you're going to die, and this is working as intended. This is to counter the fact that you can blow them up if you get the jump on them with cooldowns up from range (especially if they're preoccupied with another target). This is standard MMO balancing and anyone who has played multiple MMOs can tell you this. So complaining that melee can eat you means nothing. Secondly, this game isn't balanced around 1v1. This should again be blatantly obvious as being standard MMO programming. The WZs in this game are team-oriented and this is where sages shine. As has been mentioned, sages have the best toolbox in the game, and have a ton of great abilities for turning the tide in WZs. You honestly cannot expect to have both great utility and great burst. No other ranged class does, why should sages? What you do have is great sustain in both healing and dps, which coupled with your utility makes you a force in groups. Honestly, if you feel underpowered as a sage then it probably comes down to some combination of gear, skill and the class not being the right fit. Either that or your expectations for the class are simply too high, and you're the type of player that's going to feel underpowered as ANY class, because they're all more balanced than you probably realize.

Nope, I play on Kinrath Spider (or something close to it, that's off the top of my head). That's what I mean about mercs being the new huntards though. It's so easy for someone to stand on a catwalk, spam tracer and think they're good, so they don't put any time into actually learning how to play. Today I saw two mercs in supercommando gear. I died a little inside.

Honestly, arsenal sucks. This is probably 90% of your problem. Edit: I just realized you're bored with the class, not having trouble with it, so you can disregard what I wrote below. However, I would still say try pyro. It's a much more active, involved playstyle. As pyro, I can count the number of players I consistently have trouble with on two hands. Not any one class mind you, just good players who are very likely better than me. If you can't make it work as a pyro merc, skill is the issue (or gear if you're not geared yet). Sorry, but it's true. Either that, or your definition of a class being well designed is being able to faceroll every other class without breaking a sweat. Doesn't work that way. I strongly suggest that you invest time into understanding how the other classes work and how you can beat them before you suggest something is broken. Lastly, the abilities you mentioned, like pally bubbles, totems, blinks, stance dancing, etc are the very abilities most complained about (whether for being OP or simply not functioning well) and changed/nerfed/tinkered with over WoW's history. Wonder why that is, huh? Funny how they contribute to the incredibly unbalanced roller coaster ride that has been WoW's class balance in PvP.

So I just had to share this with the merc community because I thought it was both funny and also representative of how completely idiotic 90% of the mercs on my server are. Just to show you how bad it is, of the dozens I've run into playing as pyro, I can count the number that know they can cure my dots on one hand. It's brutal. Anyway, was in a WZ today and stomped a tracer spamming baddie by popping in and out of LOS. He literally stood there trying to hit nothing but tracer, and it was absurdly easy to kill him. Then he starts chirping in general chat, telling me to stop being a ***** and go face to face with him. I laugh at him in general and keep playing the match, then later the same situation plays out and he goes off. I try to tell him I'm playing to my spec, that it's exactly what I SHOULD be doing, etc, and all he can reply with are things like 'well I wouldn't want to play your spec if it means playing like a *****'. I even tried to explain to him after the game why pyro can be a better WZ spec, but he wasn't having any of it. His last comment was something along the lines of 'just don't waste my time if you're gonna fight like a *****', as if I should just ignore him as a target because he doesn't like the way I play. Sometimes I feel like merc is the new huntard.