I made a thread about this in the sin forum but I'm still trying to find more info. What are your thoughts on the madness deception hybrid if you've used it. I think I like that one more because its not as mush thrashing required. (needs a better animation). Ive been opening with DF, Discharge, proc into maul and crushing darkness. when those go into cd I use shock and lightning. From then on i try to proc maul with ranged attacks and proc crushing darkness from maul. (this is a rotation I use in PVP) some feedback on this rotation would be nice. others say just dot and thrash...but i feel like im not doing anything meaningful when I do that

One last question. which pvp set bonus should I take? nether seems that great. reduced cd on crushing darkness seems useless if I'm waiting on procs and i dont see a use for FL

voltic slash is just a saber throw... >_> It looks cool but I shouldn't be something that's used repeatedly to me. Who saber throws repeatedly?!? Anyway thanks for the feedback. I think Ill give the 18/0/23 a try and see how that works. I might like it more since i was a darksin before. Can you post the 18/0/23 spec? Its not an intuitive spec and I don't know what I'm taking.

Ugh how lame. Sounds really boring... and the only thing keeping you in melee is the raze proc? Ive been flip flopping between full and hybrid. I think I like hybrid more because its a little more involved and dosent force me to spam thrash AS much. I really missed out on madness of the past! I tried it but i only gave it about 20 minutes, I regret that now lol. Iuno.. I like the idea of a caster/melee but the devs really missed the goal if this class is supposed to be Maul. Instead this class...even parts of the story are the embodiment of Zannah. I wish there was a mara/jugg type class that used the saberstaff. I initially picked the class because I like the staff, but the only cool animation is assasinate and spike. Maybe I'll just take a hiatus and level another character

Hello, Ive been a darkness spec since release and have recently grown bored of it. I like tanking on my jugg to much. So I've been trying madness and I think I like it but I cant seem to find current guides for it (if there are some I apologize and would like to be pointed in their direction). I feel TOTALLY LOST right now I don't know weather to go full or hybrid. I like to pvp alot and am currently transitioning gear. So I'm in a mishmash of tank and dps gear now. i seem to fall really easily. will this get better as i get dps pvp gear for my new spec? Can someone help with rotations? Is Force Lightning part of the rotation and does it count as damage over time and contribute toward my heals? After I dot up an opponent do i move on to the next one or try to focus him down? Which set bonus do I want to shoot for? If i get a reset on crushing darkness do I apply it to the same opponent if its still up? I guess I'm asking if multiple applications of Crushing Darkness can be on the same opponent. Currently I'm using the hybrid build. On a side note... I wish i had tried madness before. everyone seems to hate it now. all the info i find about it is in regards to that not actually playing the spec. Thanks for the help

I like the idea of seeing how much damage gets mitigated in fly txt. It could change the meta game a bit when dps see that they are doing a fraction of the damage that they could normally achieve. Guard swapping is the last big thing i need to work on with my tanking. So far i haven't found a fast and efficient way of doing it as all my comfortable binds are filled up at this point. Someone stated something about being in the main fight as a tank with no heals would cause you to just die quickly and you'd be better as a guard... Maybe that's what my problem is: I love to be in the big fight at the center of things force pushing, gripping, backhanding (love the sound effect)! My image of a tank on the center of battle is something similar to the berserk icon, head thrown back in a battle cry as everyone tries to pew pew you and you just shrug it off. I'm trying guard more often. I kinda like the extra pressure knowing that in a pug only a few may respond. so the will to stay alive is high.

Ok after letting my thoughts settle for a bit I think I've finally distilled down what i want to ask. Thanks for the speedy replies however, I didn't intend the focus of the topic to become about mvp votes. I was just using it as a measuring stick ...a bent one at that. But the question is: is it worthwhile to have a tank if there's no healer to accompany to the field? Because you cant make a lasting presence on the battle field if you're dead all the time. As a tank its your job to got out there and get hurt first and that's fine and well when you've got heals but without them your just a suicide bomber without a bomb

Ok I'll try to make this as understandable and cohesive as possible. I'll try to avoid a wall of TXT while leading to my question because as I type this I do not have a solid idea i what I'm really asking. but first a bit of background on myself. Fist this is my first mmo that I've played and I love pvp. I usually play pug wz because my work scheduel will not allow me to join a pvp guild and be active at expected times. I've been a tank since release starting with a sin then switching to a jugg (sometime before crushing blow became an aoe). I fell in love with the class, specifically leap and backhand. in fact I have never played any other roll endagame. I leveled a mara to 50 but got bored. I have created all the ac but havent found the interest to level any higher than 18 or so. So, most of my knowledge about other classes comes from reading the forums and what Ive found out first hand in game. Now on to my.... question How does the value of having a tank on the battlefield relate to the other classes, especially when there are no healers to be protected? I ask this for several reasons. the first which comes to mind is the amount of MVP votes tanks get. I know this isnt an indication of player skill BUT (imo) it at the very least shows how much attention you gained on the battle field whether it be dps heals or objectives. Players get heals they vote for the healer, they see an awesome score in Hutt ball they vote for that carrier. I as a tank rarely get MVP votes even tho 80-90% of the time I top charts in protection medals earned and sometimes objectives. While the one dps who throws an off heal every now and again in a WZ full of dps get all the votes even though hes in the center of the charts in all aspects. This isnt a QQ about not getting mvp votes but It makes me wonder what value do tanks really bring to wz outside of control? Why don't they get more votes? Are they just being overlooked? is it because heal numbers always far exceed protection numbers? I ask about only bringing control because, and this is how I understand the situation, please feel free to correct me or explain in a better way, Protection and heals are the same thing to me. In the sense that protected hp are essentially points never touched. the damage goes off into space ie. 1000 damage done to a target that's guarded has that damage cut to 500. 500 damage is sent to space where it dosent affect anyone. Heals on the other hand return lost points to the target. So a target that his damaged for 1000 and get healed for 1000 has the damage undone. essentially making the dps as good as if it had been protected and vice versa. The only difference fore me is the price paid for sending the damage into space. Tank's hp for protection and Healer's resources for heals. So to me tanks and heals are kinda like different faces of the same coin that work best in tandem. But this leads to my next question about tank value What happens to tank value when heals and tanks aren't complemented by one another? Me being a tank and loving it would choose to have heals over a tank if i could only get one. I feel that healers and even dpsers can turn the tide of battle alone, IE one really good player carrying a portion of the team. But as a tank I don't feel I can carry the team even though I'm doing everything right for my role, taunt on cd, guard etc. I feel as though a tank is only as good as the team he protects. I cant really dps anyone down myself and if the other team is coordinated or has lots of dps i get melted quickly without heals and a tank is no good if hes not in the center of battle soaking up damage. Its even worse when you have no heals and your team is bad. In cases like that I feel reluctant about casting guard because the bads aren't helping my cause yet I'm giving them my hp. I feel in situations like that the team would be better served with just taunts and me teaming trying to 2 v 1. Should I just respect dps in this case? Cus thats essentially what I am at that point, a neutered dps. Heals I feel can function to their full potential without tanks if the other team is uncoordinated which is very likely in pugs in fact the more disorganized the teams the better it probably is for healers. the inverse seems true of tanks. I guess what all this sums up too is why don't tanks seem to be valued in wz...at least according to mvp votes and is it worthwhile to have a tank when they don't have heals around to make sure they can be a shield for everyone else long enough to make a difference? I apologize now for my incoherentness and poor grammar Ive been up the better part of 48 hours. but while I had some free time at work I saw the thread about who targets should snipe and I got to thinking about my overall usefulness as a tank and had to get and idea of what others think. again this I just how I see things in my very limited view of only playing a tank role

I haven't seen anyone go for the reduced cd on choke. This is my build http://www.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/juggernaut/10/?build=003222100212120222122101023000100002000000000000000000000000000003200020000000000000000000000000&ver=20 I put my last point in rule of two because i didn't know what to do with it., I like to jump back and forth from pve and pvp without changing too much. I figure the extra contol as a tank really helps in pvp and during pve the rage is nice...I forget to use the 45 second rage builder. need to work on that. with the changes to unstoppable and the immortal tree the vengeance tree isn't appealing to me at all.

If one would read the books they would see that there are those who become extremely proficient in one field and weak in another. A perfect example is the book in which Zanna first appears. Theres a fight toward the end four on two. The team of three consist of a Jedi who has become a master of dual welding but she has almost no force affinity and cannot protect herself against simple (albeit strong variations) force attacks from her enemy. Then there is a sage type character who never draws his saber (IIRC) during the fight and instead assist by bolstering his allies with the force and protecting the "marauder" from force attacks. Finaly the last Jedi is one who has become out of practice and really does more more harm than good by getting in the way and attacking at in opportune times. The last Jedi is fighting the other opponent I think this describes the sage situation well. And while were on the point of Zanna's book i think she fits the assail class perfectly, all three trees.