mhobin
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Posts posted by mhobin
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And let leave PVP people (the only people who this actually impacts) with no way to acquire said gear apart from buying them off of raiders. But Armoring not having bonus it the thing you'd find weirdest in this? Ok then.
My guess is that mats will drop similar to augments, In ranked. Where the schematics will drop from raids, possible ultra rare cp bag drops as well. The mats will be tied to weeklies and ranked players will complain even more about mat farmers. Unless you know there are 7 other players ranked above 1300, it will be impossible to find a legit game in solo. And granked was launched dead so it does not really matter, and just be used as mat farming.
The best way to save PvP fro this for the more “hardcore” players it to really support the new guild challenge system. Make a guild leaderboard, have solid rewards. Make competitive PvP player driven, and support it.
The Rishi huttball arena should have a way to switch between the huttball map and an arena created by the player.
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If 2/3 of the mods in the gear are bis (+leftsides), it's anything but meaningless.
So they announce a new set of gear, tie it to MM operations, then make the armorings undesirable? I mean they have made strange development descions, but that would be up there.
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You know nothing of the kind. You are speculating -- in a rank fashion.
Dasty
Your right, the CM has never been much of a development focus. BW/EA do not spend any time thinking about how to drive CM sales.
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You are the OP of this post, correct?
If this isn't "forum feedback as a way to change things in game", then what is it, exactly?
I don’t expect pointing out a P2W mechanic being introduced will actually change the devs minds. It was more to point out the fact that it is going to be in the game. They know what they are doing in implementing the system, it is not an oversight.
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I agree. The P2W theme that spawned this thread is a provocative distraction.
Whereas... a well presented case for removing gear from the equation in PvP... if presented by a range of PvP players in a constructive manner (without snark, animosity, etc.. that might just cause the studio to write it off as more drama), could in fact have the possibility to persuade the studio to seriously look at doing so. Yet... in checking the PvP forum.. nope... just more drama by the same folks on the same provocative theme that spawned this thread.
The studio would probably push back initially, stating that bolster already does this.. but since bolster is sleightly under whatever is the current BiS gear... players see it as a misapplication of bolster. In my view, making bolster sleightly better then current BiS gear is a very modest move that does not create any real issues... other then to allow PvP players to completely ignore gear (given bolster is not bugged). So again... a well articulated and reasoned presentation to the studio, by essentially a united front from PvPers (assuming they can all put down their pitchforks and unite on something for a change) is both worth the effort AND the right thing for players to do. And in turn, the right thing for the studio to do would be to listen and make it a reality. It might even draw back some PvPers to the game.. since they don't have to face any sort of gear grind catch up effort to be able to compete well in PvP.
Of course the unknown here is what level of economic force the avid PvP players actually represent for the game compared to every other special interest group. I only say this because there is a good amount of discussion from avid PvPers about not wanting to do anything except PvP, not wanting to have to buy anything or grind for anything other then PvP, and wanting the ability for non-subs to do so... and that may be a turn-off to the studio if that chain gets wrapped around the discussion axle. So I would encourage PvPers to not role play the discussion in any way that makes it appear to the studio that the "tail is trying to wag the dog".
Thanks for your suggestion, dripping in condescension.
I think most of the PvP community has given up on forum feedback being used as a way to change things in game. I did years ago. Likely around the time bolster was introduced. People posted long posts on the PTS with the bugs, and it launched in a state which no PTS bug was fixed. I think playing naked was optimal for almost 6 months. It was Musco’s “not at this current time” answer post to PvP FAQ that made me give up on thinking any meaningful changes would be made. For those not familiar, it was a series of about 10 commonly asked PvP questions where his answer was not at this time for like 6 of the questions.
As to if we have any monetary sway over the direction of the game. That would be a solid no. The PvP community is a shell of what it once was, and even at its peak we were a small subsection that was ignored for most of the game’s development. SWTOR PvP was doomed from before launch. They picked an engine that could not support cross server, or have large scale OWpvp. Any semblance of competitive PvP died in the 2 year preseason of 8v8 and never came back. That was before arena was introduced in 2.4. I would put the true death of the PvP community as a large part of the player base around 2.0.
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In response to one of the most sensible posts in this thread, YES! I agree. Make bolster in PvP nullify gear. Problem solved. Before anyone claps back at me, I realize this was not his suggestion, but it is not this suggestion alone that makes his response sensible. Whoever/all who have been suggesting this change to PvP gearing should be focused on this suggestion, and drop all this "Pay to Win" stuff, because it just isn't really accurate and the bolster is a much stronger argument that is likely to be considered.
And yes, it will certainly be gear "parts" that we craft in Tier 5, not the gear shells itself. There will also likely be - as there always has been - some "static" pieces that are slightly better than current non-BiS but that will also be... non BiS. The thing is, will it have set bonuses for the very first time in the game as craftable? If so, then I think more discussion about where these items (schematics and materials) are available to make sure you aren't shoehorning people into one sector of game play. Again, a MUCH BETTER discussion point to argue from than trying to make this about "Pay to Win", which I agree just likely makes the developers roll their eyes like the rest of us. You can't buy the schematics, materials, or gear itself from the Cartel Market. It's not P2W.
I just think that until we know that, there is no use in getting full up on outrage and posting indignant outcry over something we know nothing about. But then again... I suppose that's what 99% of the internet (not just these forums) is about, so I'm begging for civility and rationality where I am least likely to get it.
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Bolster at 252 is a great idea. I think most of the PvP community has been arguing for it for years.
This discussion has been predicated on the differing opinion on the meaning of P2W. You and I disagree. You contend that because it is not directly purchasable it is not P2W. I say that because there Is a viable method to purchase BiS gear for RL money it is a P2W mechanism.
I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Tier 5 will have set bonuses. They would not announce a new tier of gear for MM raiders that would not be desirable for MM raiders.
I don’t think this thread has been full of indignant outcry, it has been pretty civil. Both sides have made valid arguments. Just because not everyone agrees, or does not think BW/EA is always in the right does not mean that the conversation has been outrageous or out of line.
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I've got a better idea, make it bound to legacy, and make everyone have to have grind it out.
You mean like UC in the system now?
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You seem to be forgetting one thing, some of us can craft the gear, which will cost us no credits, since we actually have a guild that was built upon helping one another so how is that pay to win?
The MM ops team in your guild will be setting the price for everyone else on the server. If they are only making stuff for guildies it will drive the price up. How many MM ops teams are on each server, 20? Maybe?
My guess is that gear will be very expensive as the schematics will be locked to very few people. Because you are in a guild with a MM ops team it will lower the price for you, and it will raise the price for everyone else.
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LMAO... you mean the 2 or 3 other players in this threadwho keep insisting this is P2W ... black and white on their opinion as well? Versus dozens of players all echoing the generally accepted definition of the term?
As long as the OP and a couple of other forum members keep doubling down and insisting it is P2W, while ignoring every other viewpoint in the thread.. this simply cannot happen.
There is a long thread in the PvP section with most people agreeing with me.
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Just because you're still trying, and I happen to have some down time, I'll address these:
POINT 2
As for point #2, when you say "Built up wealth to this point of the game has been for cosmetic uses only" it's almost impossible for me to continue to take you seriously. Because I've been a crafter here since the beginning -- I've NEVER done an OP, not once. NEVER done ranked. But I've geared my toons from day one with crafted items I've made and purchased. I've bought and sold augments. The farthest I've ever gotten in GC on a single toon is about level 90ish (just not my thing). But I have a large number of toons in 246 crafted gear and have been fine with it for the content I like. Amongst other things, I use my credits to buy the mats that I can use to make the gear I want, the augs I want, etc. -- not cosmetic, but the actual gear to actually play the game. Frankly, this point is rubbish.
- A final point on crafted gear is that with a large number of people crafting, the scarcity, and therefore the prices, of items will fall precipitously in short order. So, while I've accepted for the sake of argument that there may be a need to get hundreds of millions in credits to be geared, it will almost certainly be a tiny fraction of that in very short order as has happened in every single wave of crafting boons.
is...
Unless they make the schematics tradable it is more likely then not that you will not be crafting this gear. As of now they have just said the schematics will drop from MM operations. That means the supply will be very low. Prices will be very high. “Crafters” will not be crafting the gear. Progression raiders will be crafting the gear.
The gear you make now has no real effect on PvP or progression raiding. Without set bonuses it is worse then entry level gear from drops/vendors. People in those two communities have never used crafted gear before as a primary gear source. So my argument that credits have been for cosmetics is true. The only thing that was bought by credits for stats were augments. Which are still a P2W mechanic but a smaller one.
- A final point on crafted gear is that with a large number of people crafting, the scarcity, and therefore the prices, of items will fall precipitously in short order. So, while I've accepted for the sake of argument that there may be a need to get hundreds of millions in credits to be geared, it will almost certainly be a tiny fraction of that in very short order as has happened in every single wave of crafting boons.
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You're confusing a bunch of different arguments. You ignore the fact that this is only "P2W" in your definition because the studio allows CM items to be sold/purchased on the GTN using only in-game currency -- a good thing for players w/out a doubt.
So because that's in game, you've identified a loophole that will enable certain new users to use real cash to buy items using this player-friendly system, sell them on the GTN, and then perhaps (we still don't know the mechanics) buy/craft possibly BiS gear (again, very doubtful it becomes truly BiS, but conceding this for your argument).
But in doing this you ignore, discount, or outright disregard:
- the net benefit of having a system that allows all items in the game to be earned only through play
- the number of long-time players who've built up in-game wealth and won't be needing/using the slower method you describe
- the players in the game who really love crafting (myself included) and have been begging for ways for the studio to make crafting viable again (the studio has intended from inception to have crafting be a viable in-game activity and this gets to that)
- the fact that the 'grind' involved here, even for new players, is minimal, necessary to learn the game, and -- importantly -- need only involve playing the parts of the game that the new player would enjoy playing anyway
And you do all this, not through an intellectually honest: "I don't think end-game gear should be craftable" argument -- something people can debate fairly. But instead through a disingenuous, cutesy argument of "P2W" that, while I concede can be applied broadly here, doesn't really at all approach a concerning P2W regime (for the reasons above and laid out previously too). It doesn't at all appear that your arguments here are keeping the best interests of the game and playerbase in mind...
Here is a response to each of your bullet points
1. A system with everything earned through play is the only fair system. Especially in a sub based game.
2. Built up wealth to this point of the game has been for cosmetic uses only. Many players have had no real need for credits. They have a few outfits they like, and spend their time on the fleet between PvP and raids. Credits have never been a priority, as they have no real effect on the active playing parts of the game. This system changes that.
3. You can have top level crafted gear or direct CM sales on the GTN. Having both puts a P2W mechanic in endgame.
4. What is faster way to 100m credits? Setting up several different crafting toon, gathering the mats and selling the crafted items on the GTN. Or buying two hypercrates and selling them on the GTN. One will take months, the other minutes.
You need to stop looking at this from a how I play the game view, and look at the system as a whole for the game.
- the net benefit of having a system that allows all items in the game to be earned only through play
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Exactly right PennyAnn.
And it's not like a conflated premise that this new gear = P2W is going to move the studio in any way.. because I'm pretty sure they too will follow the generally accepted definition as to what P2W is and is-not.
Ok, you win. I concede the argument. We should all trust that EA will not put in any predetory or abusive game mechanics. They have no track record or history of doing such things.
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Let's don't. Just because you don't like crafting doesn't mean there are some people that have been wanting something to craft and this gives crafters something good to craft. Just because you don't like crafting, doesn't mean it is P2W, it just means you have to purchase something from someone. Oh the horror.
I will craft these for my guild and they will help get the mats for the items and "shock face" it will not cost them any credits. See that is the idea of guilds to help each other.
That’s a nice way to gear. I’m glad you have a friendly guild who helps out. I like crafting too. However, not everyone is in that situation.
Others will have to raise large amounts of credits to buy the mats or the gear. You can do that through selling CM items quickly.
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That is exactly what me and another guy were arguing in general forums but the usual forum warriors claimed that since you can't directly buy gear from CM it isn't P2W (oops), narrowing the definition to meet their claims.
The fact is that if you can convert real money into in game credits and buy BiS gear with these credits, then it's a P2W, even if there are other grindy ways of acquiring said gear.
Zero game time + a way to convert irl money into credits --> BiS gear = P2W.
General Discussion is a hard place to find logic.
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Welp, that's really your agenda then. Just make it about that instead of force-fitting this into a P2W narrative. Because for someone like me, the idea of being able to get this gear through crafting is a big plus and welcomed addition.
I won't spend a single dime of real money to do do this crafting either. So why, in a P2W analysis, is this option bad for the game?
Because the argument has nothing to do with how you play the game. It introduces a P2W mechanic into a subscription based game (which endgame is). Look at my post to Andryah. The same response work for you too.
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TUXs, take a look at my response a couple posts earlier (I also have a longer version earlier that got ignored) for my responses generally. But for now, the reason this argument fits in the P2W broad definition is only because we have a studio that allows selling/purchasing CM items on the GTN. That means players can get these cosmetic items entirely through in-game currency. This is "pro-player" and should be encouraged. Many other games don't have this.
The only way to "fix" the issue raised by the OP is to kill the resell/purchase option on the GTN or kill the option to acquire this gear through crafting. NEITHER of these are good options...
Kill the option for the gear to be craftable.
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The problem, Tux, is that you don't know that any/all of this gear will be BiS (because none of us know this). Will it have set bonuses? If not, then it cannot be BiS. In fact, we know absolutely nothing about this gear except it is a new tier of gear that will be crafted.
We don't even know how the materials will be gathered, what the materials even ARE, or where the schematics will be available. All of this will impact the price of said gear. And, again... no guarantee that it will be BiS across the board. Obviously, if B mods and the like can be crafted with an increase in stats and more easily than what you can get from Command Crates, then that will be an improvement to the current gear tier. But the fact is: We just don't know.
All of this is very cart before the horse and inflammatory in order to stir up outrage on the forums. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, really. But I think the concerns are extremely premature.
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It is a pretty logical assumption that this gear will have set bonuses. They announced it on the stream as part of the new MM operation. Set bonuses are vital for MM operations. Why would they announce a new tier that would not be desirable for those it is intended for?
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Not if the player already has the credits in hand, or in a guild that collectively runs a gear manufacturing line for it's guild members.
Nor does it matter to a player who still needed to gather the resources needed and by virtue of choice and personal discipline refuses to take your proposed lazy way out. It's not a race to be the first in new gear (except maybe for a few really impatient PvP players who want to be first in the gear arms race every time new gear releases), nor is there any reward or achievement for doing so.
You are of course free to pursue that route if that's what floats your boat... but it's still not P2W.. no matter how many times you demand that it is. In fact.. I consider it both lazy and a foolish... but that's just me. Go ahead, by all means go that route.. and I still won't call it P2W....nor will any other sensible player who looks at it objectively rather then from a selfish lens.
If anyone has looked at this argument from a selfish lens it is you. Your main arguments have been:
1. I have a wealth system in place to make credits, so paying for gear does not effect me. Those that don’t have such a system in place are not playing the game correctly. Ignoring the fact that before this system, credits were only for cosmetic features. In game gear has never been linked to credits. Credits were for fluff. Someone with a billion credits never had an advantage over someone with 100k before this system.
2. Players who use the CM are lazy. You spent years building a fortune, and those that did not spend time amassing credits were lazy. Again, many players never saw the need for lots of credits before. They had an outfit or two they liked, and never needed a fully decorated SH because they spent time between PvP or raids on the fleet. Credits were used for augments and not much else. If they just PvPed, they never made any credits for years. But you see that as an inefficient way of playing. However, those are the players being most effected by this change.
3. I don’t have to use the CM to make credits and I don’t like people who do. You keep implying this, and it has nothing to do with the fact that a P2W mechanic is being introduced to the game. Because you won’t be using it, and you don’t think players who do are at you level does not change the fact that there will now be a way to get a BiS lvl 70 toon before doing a single in game activity other then a few GTN trades.
Get out of your own way. Look past how you play this game.
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That just it. The definition of P2W means there is NO OTHER WAY TO GET IT. So the fact you can A) farm credits in game to buy it off the GTN if needed, B) get the schematics by whatever means BW is putting into the game to get them (which they haven't told us how yet), getting the materials from in game activities and crafting it yourself means NO RL money being spent on it at all. This by definition means it can't be P2W, since you do not need to spend one cent to get it. You may choose to speed that process up by deciding to spend RL money to do so, however that is a choice, and does not make it P2W. I know I will never spend one dime to get Tier 5 gear. If I do not go and get the schems myself, and craft it for myself for free, then I'll make a credit plan if I need more credits then I have and buy it with Credits earned in game.
Your approach takes more time then spending RL money. For the time you take to farm the credits you are at a disadvantage. That is P2W.
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Illum was removed because the engine can’t handle more then about 40 people on the screen at one time. Turns the game into a slideshow. It is a shame, engine limitations really hurt the development of PvP in this game. Unplayable open world and the lack of cross server killed PvP within a year of launch.
I still have fun playing, but I stopped having any expectations at all for open world or competitive modes a long time ago.
The new guild battle system has my ears perked up though.
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It seems just about every other game or new game is either battle royal or is adding a battle royal to their games.
Would this work for swtor?
Would anyone be interested in playing it?
Would it attract so extra players?
Could be fun but because of perma stealth being so vital to two ACs it would be tough. They would either be OP or worthless depending on how it is dealt with.
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I think you forgot the "L" between p and a when you say pay2win, because what you just described is exactly that.
Play2win with a pay option if you don’t feel like it.
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This is hilarious. I wish they'd agree to PM you my purchase history, because if they would, you'd come back and delete this post as fast as you could. In the last year, I have spent 15 bucks on this game, and guess what, it wasn't in the CM. I'd spell it out for you a bit more, but since I'm posting here, I'm betting you can probably figure out where that money went, yes? I won't buy loot crates with the sub coins, although, I did use what had built up, and the grant from this month's sub, to buy a Revan set, since I've been trying to get the gloves for a very long time, and I saw in my collections that it could be direct purchased, and so, I purchased it. I'm afraid you're quite wrong about this assertion too, I'm not the kind of consumer every business wants, since I won't just buy what they put in front of me. In fact, my very first post in this thread gives the lie to "the consumer every business wants", since I stated that the prices on the GTN didn't drive me to the CM, but made me start working my crafters harder. So, misconception compounded by another misconception on your part. Isn't that frustrating for you?
I spent about 45 minutes the other day logging toons in and out so I could get 4 million credits together, another problem with being gone about a year, no money built up. However, despite your "kind of consumer every business wants", doing that was my first thought, not getting my wallet out and buying some loot crates to sell. I do, however, appreciate you tapping into your boundless wisdom to show what kind of player I am, it gives a lot of insight into how much you actually know about what's likely to happen with the game. After all, if you can be so completely and utterly wrong about me, how wrong are you about your speculations for the rest of the community? Not all of us will be doing what you yourself, apparently, since you want to assume we'll all be like you, will be doing. Most of us will indeed do the work required to get the gear, if we decide we really need it, or even really want it. Here's another shocker for you: At this stage of the game, and my take on it, I won't be bothered with getting it, I don't need it for what I do in game any more. There was a time where I was into the Ops and FPs, but that's years behind me now, and I just play to goof off now, so I really don't need top tier gear. These changes are meaningless to me, but I still don't see it being P2W.
I have been using terms like “you” and “me” as a general term to make my argument easier to understand. I am sorry, but it has nothing to do with how “you” play this game.
I should try and explain why this is such an issue for me. I am a middle school teacher. I hear more stories then you would believe in how kids run up huge bills on microtransactions. They are a predetory practice which are the bane of the gaming industry.
Until this announcement, microtransactions have never been able to buy BiS gear. This has now changed. It is a clear push to entice people to the CM. Because you and I don’t buy CC has nothing to do with the argument. The argument is there is now a way to use real money, buy a lvl 70, buy some hypercrates and have a BiS toon without playing the game. It may not be enticing for you, but it is to many people. It is to kids who did not grow up on grindy games like we did. In almost every EA game on the market kids are used to putting in an extra $60 after purchasing the game to have an endgame ready character. That practice has now come to SWTOR.
For the record I don’t care one bit how you play the game. That has nothing to do with this argument. My comment about you as a consumer is based oh how you said because you cannot buy the gear directly it is not a P2W mechanic. Just because there is one extra step involved does not mean the intent behind it is to drive CM sales. You may not use it. I know I will not use it. But a non savvy consumer will. Kids will.
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Unless mom and dad are paying your credit card, you're working for it. I get that you're obsessed with this P2W idea, but you're wrong. You cannot hit that credit card and buy your gear off the CM, and until you can, or can buy the schematics, you're blowing smoke. It's a smokescreen for "I don't wanna do the work, so this is P2W". You can rationalize it, and justify it all you like, but the only one you're convincing are the people that believe the same way you do, that the game somehow owes it to you to make it simpler for you than anyone else.
How am I the one who wants to make the game simpler? I am the one arguing against paying to skip the gear grind.
You are the consumer every business wants. Because it is not laid right out in front of you, there is no manipulation to take out your wallet.
Guild Challenge System
in PvP
Posted · Edited by mhobin
This could be the best way to keep some sort of competitive PvP in the game. If there is interest in it. However, BW has to support it. Put in a guild leaderboard, and provide rewards for playing.
If crafted mats for the new tier drop in ranked like they do for augments, it will be hard to find a game without at least one farmer in it. The challenge system could be the way around it.
Even better expand on it. Have two different ladders, one for death match and one for huttball. Hell even let us challenge other guilds in existing huttball maps. We have 3 plus Rishi. Make it a hutttball challenge ladder. We can schedule our own matches, and win great rewards. Girrada will be entertained.
My only question is if there is any interest in the system. I don’t know if PvP guilds exist anymore. Hopefully some new ones will pop up for this system.