[Madness is now the PvP spec]

I can't wait until rated warzones come out. Until then, it's all the same ego-boosting with charts and medals. I still believe Deception will remain crucial as the damage-dealer/finisher, whilst Darkness/Madness hybrids will remain to be the key protectors and Huttball carriers. Full Madness really doesn't work against any knowledgeable healer combo.

 

I still can't believe there are people who think deception is good.

[Deception - WEAK, proff here!]

I know, because Reck increases crit chance of all attacks by 100% and lasts 30s+.

 

OT: Nice vid, mind posting your spec? I'm guessing it's Chain Shock?

 

60% gives you pretty much 100% in bm gear, 3 charges for shock discharge and whatever.

 

Pretty much all of the vid involved trinket recklessness expertise buff, then conveniently cut away after the 1 person had died.

 

The vid also included bad movement and a few times running around doing nothing in the middle of 50 players. Also saw some backpeddling. Not impressed in the slightest.

 

I am curious what OP remodded his bm gear with, but I doubt he'll me now though.

[Madness is now the PvP spec]

Most of it was worthless AE damage. Easily healed through.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but until I see a video showing a few things I don't believe the OP isn't just following the crowd and enjoying tab-dotting. Make a video showing the following and I will happily concede that Madness is now THE pvp spec.

 

1. No cheesing the meters with constant tab-dotting. Go forth and play the round properly. Focusing on the objectives, and not padding your numbers with cheesy tactics.

 

2. No pocket healer. Queuing up with a healer is a great way to look like a rock star. Anni-Marauders with a dedicated healer can easily bury other classes on damage output. No healer? Cannon fodder.

 

3. Get 8-10 medals without using the silly frozen water trick. I often get that many just by adapting my role during the game. Heavy offense to start, and swapping to defense when needed. Every medal well earned. No silly +healing medals on my assassin... ever.

 

4. Show your 500-700k damage at the end.

 

Might sound like a tall order, but if you make big claims you have to make big demonstrations. If we want to just say that "Madness is a great pvp spec!" then sure. No problem. It IS a great pvp spec, and does wonderful things in the right hands. THE pvp spec though? Pfffffft, you are going to have to prove it with more then silly/meaningless screen shots. To use the popular internet phrase...

 

Videos or it didn't happen.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/screenshot2012021301001.jpg/

 

Wasn't tab dotting, was playing for objectives.

 

Had a healer in the group, but not a 'pocket healer'.

 

Minus the healing medals and it's still 10.

 

Hopefully 470k is enough!

[Madness is now the PvP spec]

No chasing abilities? Not sure what you mean by that? Closers?

 

Let me introduce you to: instant cast whirlwind, electrocute, creeping madness (2 sec root), force slow and force sprint. If you want on a target you should be on them.

 

 

 

Also I've posted this in many other threads: drop Maul from Madness. You don't need it, save that force for thrash which hits harder when you aren't deep deception. Also consider picking up dark embrace which gives you greatly increased force regen for 6 seconds when you come out of stealth, that's 4 GCD's you can deathfield, discharge, creeping madness, and shock in those 6 seconds and be full force to thrash like 4 times before needing to build force. Most targets are dead by then and then you stealth and get force back.

 

Main thing about madness is remembering not to stand there like a tank. I never even get in melee with something until all my dots are rolling on that target. Then I electrocute and hit them with a few thrashs and then run away as I hit them with an instant crushing darkness....one target, one kill, next.....

 

I don't agree with dropping maul. Maul and death field is your burst for killing targets. DF > CT > discharge > shock > maul or thrash depending on proc > DF again when it's up.

 

If you're running out of force you're probably doing someting wrong. And stealth is pretty much useless as this spec, there's no point in using it really. Our openers are awful, death field is a better opener.

[Madness is now the PvP spec]

this is the point of madness. However, the spec plays more like a warlock than anything else.

 

Madness has a 2 sec soft cc, but not a 4 sec hard cc or extra knockdown + 2nd slow. Additionally, madness is squishier, requires more micro, and has no chasing abilities beyond death field.

 

Also just to Clarify, darkness does have healing. Harnessed Darkness, energize, and dark charge all heal the player.

 

Lastly, do you focus on power or crit when doing a full madness build?

 

With a low cd force sprint, CT, and your snare ability (rarely used, don't need it), how are you being kited?

 

I've just been using full BM stalker gear, haven't played around with any of the mods. You really need both though. To kill a player you want deathfield and maul to crit, they're a lot of your burst; but you need enough power/surge for that crit to hurt.

 

I'm the first to admit madness is a different play style, and is more difficult to manage, but played well it can be very effective.

[Madness is now the PvP spec]

IMO madness isn't about dropping people. It's about being a giant pain in the *** and harassing them from range and picking them off in melee instead of going toe to toe with them. I love using death field, lighting charged and creeping terror to harass people at cap points to buy my team some time.

 

The night I switched specs from deception to madness my damage in warzones doubled. But it's all padded because I'm just doing minor damage to tons of targets. If I have to 1v1 it definately takes a lot longer to drop people but again I think that's not what madness is about

 

It is absolutely about dropping people. Sure, it takes a couple of seconds to ramp up to the big hits because you have to apply dots etc. But played correctly you should still have killing power.

 

You should not be dotting everyone. You should be dotting your main target only, who should have deathmark on him.

[Madness is now the PvP spec]

I played it pre-patch too, I didn't like how raze was pre-patch so I stopped. Discharging to inflate numbers is retarded.

 

Raze prepatch wasn't that bad imo, it just required a lot of crit. There was no internal cd on it so you could have multiple procs in a row. The new version is far more consistent, seems to be a nearly 100% proc on the first melee strike, so you can even work it into a reliable rotation.

 

Yeah if you look at the amount of kills in that 700k dmg screenshot posted earlier, it's at least half of what it should be. I admit it can be a bit of fun to see how much damage you can do, but it's not smart play.

[Madness is now the PvP spec]

This thread is so slowpoke. Been using 7/3/31 since I hit 50 ages ago, and it's always been the best pvp non-tank damage spec.

 

Hopefully you ******* spamming discharge on everyone to inflate your damage won't get it nerfed.

 

And there is no reason to ever use anything but lightning charge as this spec, bar running the ball in hutball.

[Done with my sin (PvP)]

Well unfortunately that's balance for you. You're a hybrid class comparing yourself to a class(es) that has only one profession. A Sin shouldn't nor never deal as much damage as a Mar/Sent because then you just tip the scales to the other end - people end up discarding Mar/Sent instead because the Sin would perform better.

 

I don't know what to tell you. If your friends are kicking you out for some random pug whose class you envy, then you need to get new friends. If you are pugging it, well... find some friends.

 

What? We're a hybrid class somehow now? Just because our tree has another talent spec that isn't dps, doesn't mean classes with 3 dps trees have some right to do more damage. In an ideal world, all classes do as close as possible to the same dmg. That is of course much easier said than done, but dismissing our class as inherently sub par to others is ridiculous.

[Done with my sin (PvP)]

reading your description of madness makes the spec sound really...neutered. So you're applying your dots from range...then what?

 

From 30yards (or medium-ish range) you have death field and creeping terror. Are you hardcasting Crushing Darkness too? It seems like you're only pulling off negligble damage from range that any competent team will just dispell/heal through. On top of that, you can't really toe to toe any class.

 

I get the feeling sorcs still do it better.

 

Then again I've only been madness for a few hours...

 

You're right in the fact that sorcs probably do do it better, which is admittely kinda depressing.

 

By the time you've used both CT and DF, you've probably closed the gap at least to the point of shocking (for the melee dmg buff) and/or discharging. Once everythings up unload with thrash and maul. I don't follow this religously, there are of course times when using a dot might be a waste if someone is close to death. You just have to play it by ear. With this spec, thrash hits extremely hard (when it crits it's nearly 2x more dmg than deception 31 point), so your melee dmg is still very high.

 

Of course only maul with proc up, and it still hits super hard. Only thing you're missing is induction, but now only deception specs can use that talent anyway, and deception is awful.

 

Comboing recklessness + trinket + deathfield on 3 players is ~9k dmg straight up. So you can actually do a lot of front up burst damage, but in general your burst damage takes a couple of gcds to build up.

 

Instant WW is also incredibly useful for those 2v1 or 3v1 situations.

 

In general, you don't lose much melee damage going into madness. Deception has so many useless talents and darkness (apart from the tier 1 talents) doesn't really buff melee either.

 

Edit: Forgot to mention, no never cast CD. After the patch though, once you put discharge up, raze procs pretty much first hit. The new talent that reduces discharge cd to 0 is extremely nice too, makes swapping targets super easy when it wasn't so before.

 

And no, I barely see anyone dispel. You just need to put enough pressure on them to force them to spam heal, and the dots just tick away.

[Done with my sin (PvP)]

You're saying I'm wrong about the points I made about madness being weak but won't say why, then when you do try and explain it you say they are all weak.

 

Casting weak dots to restore force is pointless when there are 50% regen talents in deception and 30% in darkness....

 

You seem to try to counter the argument that madness is weak when you can simply do the same damage directly in a gcd, so please figure out WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING before you keep telling people they are wrong.

 

I like the class and like the playstyle, but BW is pushing it in the wrong direction. People like you make it hard to communicate problems effectively because you simply want to argue and say people are wrong.

 

Also checking your post history I don't think you're even 50 yet, and that makes a massive difference in this class. Well played 10-49 you can be unkillable, it is a completely different game in hard modes and in pvp at 50.

 

Honestly, what the **** are you smoking? Don't even know where to start.

 

The 50% regen for 1 min is medicore, compared to a passive all the time increase that comes from doing dmg. If you have the darkness regen, you probably aren't doing much damage.

 

All I've been arguing is that madness is the best all around spec, if you can play it well. You dismissed the spec, with nonsensical arguements that miss the bigger picture. I've never said it's a pure melee spec, in fact if you play it well you'll be applying DF and dots from range to avoid getting damaged, then once all dots are on you unload with maul/thrash.

 

Dots v thrash. Yes a double crit thrash will do more damage than the dot, a 1 crit thrash probably won't do much more, and a no crit thrash will do the same or less. The value in the dots comes from being able to apply them from ranged and the passive healing and force regen. The dots, as I've previously said, synergise well with your abilties and the gain from using than is significantly higher than simply comparing tooltip dmg.

 

And really? Because I can play a spec well and better than you I'm blocking the stream of communication between you and BW. Do you actually believe the verbal garbage that comes outta your mouth (or fingers)? I actually am quite a fan of the changes they've made last patch, and I think they've done a pretty decent job. Deception is still garbage, and overall we might still be a little behind the other classes, but it's a start.

 

I've had significant success with 7/3/31, pretty much always top damage and top medals. On one of the most populated servers too, the swiftsure. I'm battlemaster (was rank 59 before illum patch), and I'm rank 66 now. So yeah I'm definitely under 50, your detective skills are top notch mate.

 

Think before posting next time, kid.

[Done with my sin (PvP)]

so it's "You're wrong but I can't or won't explain why".

 

And I'm actually a fan of darkness, but it translates poorly between pvp and pve (I enjoy both). That is the issue with all specs for an assassin, you get utility and are a tool in pve/pvp, you get damage and are a free kill in team pvp or a lesser dps than ranged in pve, or you get dots as a melee class when the alternate AC can do far more with them.

 

You can't explain why madness is a poor melee spec because you're either a troll or because you know it really is a poor system to give a melee close range class and refuse to accept it for some strange reason.

 

Dunno where I've ever said madness is an amazing melee spec. I think I've actually quite explicitly said that it's very different from anything else. And I gave you a massive hint to look in the tree. Why can't you spam thrash? same reason you can't spam maul in any spec; you get force starved. Dots are decent damage, but often have a bonus like a snare or synergise with other talents like raze. All dots heal and restore force on ticks too, so with correct play you'll never really have force issues.

[Done with my sin (PvP)]

If you're getting kills with madness it is because you are fighting someone bad at their class or because they are ignoring you to fight someone else.

 

Please explain yourself or don't post. I took the time to explain my points, that dots are so weak simply using a base ability matches the damage... explain how it isn't......

 

Nope. I don't respond properly to rubbish posts by scrubs talking nonsense. To find out why you use the dots, look in the bloody tree. I don't come to the forums to hand hold.

 

It's a safe bet, with all your talk about 'burst', that you're a scrubby deception player.

[Done with my sin (PvP)]

Been trying this tonight and for the life of me I can't figure out WHY.....

 

So my thrash will crit for 1200+1200, now lets look at the rest. ....

 

Any DoT.... not worth it since it takes 18 seconds to do what a thrash will do. Why use them when I can get the same damage in a single gcd?

 

Death field.... slightly more dmg than thrash in aoe form

 

Maul... slightly more damage IF the proc is up. Time spent trying to position is better spent doing two thrashes.

 

At least deception specs get some good spike damage. Darkness specs get massive utility and survivability.

 

If you compare 4 gcd's for applying DF, creeping terror, discharge, crushing darkness... any other class could have used those 4 gcd's to put out 8-15k damage to you...

 

There are some people on these forums that, at this point, I have to wonder if they work for Bioware as forum cheerleaders or only fight horrible pvp'ers.

 

Equally geared/skilled there is no reason another class should lose to an assassin at this point. Ending hybrids makes it worse since we can no longer make up for deficiencies with our spec.

 

This game is for BH/Troopers and that is becoming more and more apparent as time goes on.

 

Not gonna waste my breath refuting all your points, so I'll simply say; you're doing it wrong. Like I said, it's a different playstyle, but it's still amazing.

[Done with my sin (PvP)]

7/3/31. Always touted this as the best non-tank pvp spec, even before patch. It's playstyle is a lot more difficult/different compared to others, but played well you'll do a **** ton of damage. Only class that gives me issues is warriors, the rest are fair game. Haven't logged in since patch, but I imagine it's even stronger now.

[To people complaining about]

And whats wrong with using all 3, using dark charge to keep aggro. I don't understand what you are arguing anymore. There no way you can't deny its useful. I never said it was godly, just useful and smart players take advantage of useful things.

 

I was illustrating that in properly hard content, avoidance abilities will be best at keeping you alive. Deflecting a 10k melee hit vs turning that melee hit into 8k (at best); it's obvious which is better. I never said you couldn't use all three, but you seem to think that dark charge doing all the work, when it's not really.

 

My posts are not really arguing, they're more refuting your posts and examples. The reality is, this change will make very little difference at all. If anything.....

 

At 50 force, mid combat charge changing is a complete and utter waste of force and you shouldn't be doing it. The change to 100force is a buff for you people, because now you won't be doing things that make you worse.

[To people complaining about]

I never said the change to dark charge will stop it, as I said in my post it will just make it harder. I vanish usually as soon as dark embrace goes away so I get more dark embrace while my relic is still active, so theres a good chance it wont be up. Deflection is great but could also be on CD. And you never addresses the most important part there where if a tank dies you can tank the boss with pretty much the same armor and prevent truly squishy DPSers from gaining aggro.

 

If you're pulling agro so frequently that deflection and vanish are both not up, your tank is bad or you are bad or both.

 

If the content is so easy that you can successfully tank the boss in dps gear, then why is the tank dying? This is assuming you have the quick reactions to put on a force generator at the same time as dark charging, because dark charge by itself likely won't save you.

 

In properly hard content, you pull agro/tank dies then you're dead; dark charge won't save you. Force Shroud / Deflection will have a better chance at keeping you alive than dark charge; or you could just vanish.

[To people complaining about]

Reasons good players stance dance, not doing so is pretty stupid.

 

Fighting a fellow assassin in pvp, you are beating him, he pops force cloak, is still losing, switch to lightning charge, discharge for the dot, back to dark. He can no longer run away for 18 secs.

 

Someone on your team gets the ball, theres noone around to help you guys, dark charge to guard the ball carrier.

 

Someone throws you the ball, you have a healer healing you, dark charge to take less damage and give the healer an easier time.

 

Your doing flashpoints, tank goes down, boss is at 20% health. Dark Charge and finish the fight as the tank.

 

Doing a raid, boss is untauntable, you gain aggro, dark charge to stay alive until tank regains aggro.

 

If you can't see why stance dancing is important you are a bad person. And this won't stop stance dancing, just make it more costly which is also ok because as a warrior you used to lose all your rage, same thing, just a different game.

 

 

You burnt 70 force, to put a super weak dot on an opponent. Firstly, why do you even have 70 force spare? If you are, as you claim, beating this player and you have 70% of your force bar remaining then your opponent is awful.

 

If someone throws you the ball, you'll still be able to dark charge, it'll just take a couple more ticks to regen. Although, judging by how much force you have spare when you pvp it probably won't make a difference for you.

 

If you're dpsing in a raid, and dpsing well, then your force bar will be bouncing around the 0-25 mark. At 50 force, if you pull agro, you do not have enough force to change to dark charge before you're dead. The alternatives, vanishing and/or deflection, are much better for dealing with threat pulls.

 

Lastly, I find it hilarious you're calling other players bad yet when you read between the lines of your post, it shows you're bloody awful yourself.

[Ok all this QQing about Ops/scoundrel need to stop]

Reading this thread is simply hilarious. It's riddled with incorrect grammar and spelling mistakes, indicating that the average age of this thread is probably ~15.

 

If you don't think ops are op, you're in denial. Their burst is off the charts, and their survivability is reasonably high too. Playing a sin feels pretty gimp when I see myself get opened on and die in ~5 seconds; I have a decent amount of expertise too. I've seen (well geared, i.e. decent amount of 50 pvp gear) ops crit me out of stealth for 4.5k frequently, so this claim that ops that can only crit for 3k is simply fallacious.

 

You guys will get nerfed, it's only a matter of time.