I still can't believe there are people who think deception is good.

60% gives you pretty much 100% in bm gear, 3 charges for shock discharge and whatever. Pretty much all of the vid involved trinket recklessness expertise buff, then conveniently cut away after the 1 person had died. The vid also included bad movement and a few times running around doing nothing in the middle of 50 players. Also saw some backpeddling. Not impressed in the slightest. I am curious what OP remodded his bm gear with, but I doubt he'll me now though.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/screenshot2012021301001.jpg/ Wasn't tab dotting, was playing for objectives. Had a healer in the group, but not a 'pocket healer'. Minus the healing medals and it's still 10. Hopefully 470k is enough!

I don't agree with dropping maul. Maul and death field is your burst for killing targets. DF > CT > discharge > shock > maul or thrash depending on proc > DF again when it's up. If you're running out of force you're probably doing someting wrong. And stealth is pretty much useless as this spec, there's no point in using it really. Our openers are awful, death field is a better opener.

With a low cd force sprint, CT, and your snare ability (rarely used, don't need it), how are you being kited? I've just been using full BM stalker gear, haven't played around with any of the mods. You really need both though. To kill a player you want deathfield and maul to crit, they're a lot of your burst; but you need enough power/surge for that crit to hurt. I'm the first to admit madness is a different play style, and is more difficult to manage, but played well it can be very effective.

It is absolutely about dropping people. Sure, it takes a couple of seconds to ramp up to the big hits because you have to apply dots etc. But played correctly you should still have killing power. You should not be dotting everyone. You should be dotting your main target only, who should have deathmark on him.

Raze prepatch wasn't that bad imo, it just required a lot of crit. There was no internal cd on it so you could have multiple procs in a row. The new version is far more consistent, seems to be a nearly 100% proc on the first melee strike, so you can even work it into a reliable rotation. Yeah if you look at the amount of kills in that 700k dmg screenshot posted earlier, it's at least half of what it should be. I admit it can be a bit of fun to see how much damage you can do, but it's not smart play.

This thread is so slowpoke. Been using 7/3/31 since I hit 50 ages ago, and it's always been the best pvp non-tank damage spec. Hopefully you ******* spamming discharge on everyone to inflate your damage won't get it nerfed. And there is no reason to ever use anything but lightning charge as this spec, bar running the ball in hutball.

What? We're a hybrid class somehow now? Just because our tree has another talent spec that isn't dps, doesn't mean classes with 3 dps trees have some right to do more damage. In an ideal world, all classes do as close as possible to the same dmg. That is of course much easier said than done, but dismissing our class as inherently sub par to others is ridiculous.

You're right in the fact that sorcs probably do do it better, which is admittely kinda depressing. By the time you've used both CT and DF, you've probably closed the gap at least to the point of shocking (for the melee dmg buff) and/or discharging. Once everythings up unload with thrash and maul. I don't follow this religously, there are of course times when using a dot might be a waste if someone is close to death. You just have to play it by ear. With this spec, thrash hits extremely hard (when it crits it's nearly 2x more dmg than deception 31 point), so your melee dmg is still very high. Of course only maul with proc up, and it still hits super hard. Only thing you're missing is induction, but now only deception specs can use that talent anyway, and deception is awful. Comboing recklessness + trinket + deathfield on 3 players is ~9k dmg straight up. So you can actually do a lot of front up burst damage, but in general your burst damage takes a couple of gcds to build up. Instant WW is also incredibly useful for those 2v1 or 3v1 situations. In general, you don't lose much melee damage going into madness. Deception has so many useless talents and darkness (apart from the tier 1 talents) doesn't really buff melee either. Edit: Forgot to mention, no never cast CD. After the patch though, once you put discharge up, raze procs pretty much first hit. The new talent that reduces discharge cd to 0 is extremely nice too, makes swapping targets super easy when it wasn't so before. And no, I barely see anyone dispel. You just need to put enough pressure on them to force them to spam heal, and the dots just tick away.

Honestly, what the **** are you smoking? Don't even know where to start. The 50% regen for 1 min is medicore, compared to a passive all the time increase that comes from doing dmg. If you have the darkness regen, you probably aren't doing much damage. All I've been arguing is that madness is the best all around spec, if you can play it well. You dismissed the spec, with nonsensical arguements that miss the bigger picture. I've never said it's a pure melee spec, in fact if you play it well you'll be applying DF and dots from range to avoid getting damaged, then once all dots are on you unload with maul/thrash. Dots v thrash. Yes a double crit thrash will do more damage than the dot, a 1 crit thrash probably won't do much more, and a no crit thrash will do the same or less. The value in the dots comes from being able to apply them from ranged and the passive healing and force regen. The dots, as I've previously said, synergise well with your abilties and the gain from using than is significantly higher than simply comparing tooltip dmg. And really? Because I can play a spec well and better than you I'm blocking the stream of communication between you and BW. Do you actually believe the verbal garbage that comes outta your mouth (or fingers)? I actually am quite a fan of the changes they've made last patch, and I think they've done a pretty decent job. Deception is still garbage, and overall we might still be a little behind the other classes, but it's a start. I've had significant success with 7/3/31, pretty much always top damage and top medals. On one of the most populated servers too, the swiftsure. I'm battlemaster (was rank 59 before illum patch), and I'm rank 66 now. So yeah I'm definitely under 50, your detective skills are top notch mate. Think before posting next time, kid.

Dunno where I've ever said madness is an amazing melee spec. I think I've actually quite explicitly said that it's very different from anything else. And I gave you a massive hint to look in the tree. Why can't you spam thrash? same reason you can't spam maul in any spec; you get force starved. Dots are decent damage, but often have a bonus like a snare or synergise with other talents like raze. All dots heal and restore force on ticks too, so with correct play you'll never really have force issues.

Nope. I don't respond properly to rubbish posts by scrubs talking nonsense. To find out why you use the dots, look in the bloody tree. I don't come to the forums to hand hold. It's a safe bet, with all your talk about 'burst', that you're a scrubby deception player.

Not gonna waste my breath refuting all your points, so I'll simply say; you're doing it wrong. Like I said, it's a different playstyle, but it's still amazing.

7/3/31. Always touted this as the best non-tank pvp spec, even before patch. It's playstyle is a lot more difficult/different compared to others, but played well you'll do a **** ton of damage. Only class that gives me issues is warriors, the rest are fair game. Haven't logged in since patch, but I imagine it's even stronger now.

I was illustrating that in properly hard content, avoidance abilities will be best at keeping you alive. Deflecting a 10k melee hit vs turning that melee hit into 8k (at best); it's obvious which is better. I never said you couldn't use all three, but you seem to think that dark charge doing all the work, when it's not really. My posts are not really arguing, they're more refuting your posts and examples. The reality is, this change will make very little difference at all. If anything.....

If you're pulling agro so frequently that deflection and vanish are both not up, your tank is bad or you are bad or both. If the content is so easy that you can successfully tank the boss in dps gear, then why is the tank dying? This is assuming you have the quick reactions to put on a force generator at the same time as dark charging, because dark charge by itself likely won't save you. In properly hard content, you pull agro/tank dies then you're dead; dark charge won't save you. Force Shroud / Deflection will have a better chance at keeping you alive than dark charge; or you could just vanish.

You burnt 70 force, to put a super weak dot on an opponent. Firstly, why do you even have 70 force spare? If you are, as you claim, beating this player and you have 70% of your force bar remaining then your opponent is awful. If someone throws you the ball, you'll still be able to dark charge, it'll just take a couple more ticks to regen. Although, judging by how much force you have spare when you pvp it probably won't make a difference for you. If you're dpsing in a raid, and dpsing well, then your force bar will be bouncing around the 0-25 mark. At 50 force, if you pull agro, you do not have enough force to change to dark charge before you're dead. The alternatives, vanishing and/or deflection, are much better for dealing with threat pulls. Lastly, I find it hilarious you're calling other players bad yet when you read between the lines of your post, it shows you're bloody awful yourself.

Reading this thread is simply hilarious. It's riddled with incorrect grammar and spelling mistakes, indicating that the average age of this thread is probably ~15. If you don't think ops are op, you're in denial. Their burst is off the charts, and their survivability is reasonably high too. Playing a sin feels pretty gimp when I see myself get opened on and die in ~5 seconds; I have a decent amount of expertise too. I've seen (well geared, i.e. decent amount of 50 pvp gear) ops crit me out of stealth for 4.5k frequently, so this claim that ops that can only crit for 3k is simply fallacious. You guys will get nerfed, it's only a matter of time.