Trypticx
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Posts posted by Trypticx
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This is by far NOT the most important issue. Are you actually saying that its more important than fixing PvP? Or adding content for 50s? I think not...
more important than pvp? definitely. the % of players that pvp is pretty low compared to pve.
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Just a simple poll to see what operatives @ lvl 50 would like to see Bioware do in a NEAR future patch. Just pick the best 1 or 2 options. Put the numbers you chose and also mention your valor rank+server. (Also assume everything includes Scoundrel abilities/talents)
Concealment :
A. Reinstate 50% armor pen on Acid blade, remove damage nerf on Hidden strike, but keep knockdown change.
B. Have Hidden strike no longer require stealth while 2 Tactical advantages are present.
C. Have Backstab no longer have positional requirements while the target is poisoned.
D. Add a chance in "Cull" talent for shiv to strike twice
E. Add more usefulness to Overload shot in our rotation (Faster animation+Secondary effect)
Medicine:
A. Recuperative nanotech a chance to heal twice in a single tick.
B. Add to Toxic Screen: Cause toxic scan to increase the healing the target takes by 5% for 10 seconds.
C. Change Sedatives to effect corrosive dart
D. Endorphin Rush: Now allows healing abilities with a cast time to be able to be casted on the move while adrenaline probe is active
C.
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The problem is that while in theory that sort of positioning ability would be superior to the other classes, it's actually no better than the Sith Warrior gap closer because they don't NEED to be behind the target to do their main attacks.
Have to disagree completely. The RNG is our worst enemy in this discussion, because what we're facing isn't a solid metric; no, we're facing a PERCEPTION issue. We pop out of stealth and do our burst; if we crit on every attack, then hooray, we killed an enemy in only a few attacks. They then complain about how Operatives are overpowered because they were killed so quickly that one time, or because they watched their buddy get bursted down like that. You can't explain to them that we don't crit on every single attack normally, because we're not dealing with reasonable people here; they're not sticking around to see all of the times when the RNG didn't go our way. Or maybe they ARE seeing those other times, when we didn't kill them on the opening burst and were easily dealt with by their team; but in those cases, are they going to think it's because our skills are lousy, or are they going to think it's due to skill on their own part?
Imagine if our class wasn't crit-based at all, where the skills that boost the crit rate and surge of our backstabs, heals, etc. instead just boosted Power or added a flat percentage to the skill's damage (like how that first-tier Lethality talent boosts Shiv's damage). We'd be less likely to get the lucky 3-crit opening burst, but we'd do our damage more consistently; do you think they would have overnerfed us as hard as they did if no one could point to anecdotes of dying during our opening 3s stun?
That's why few of the debuff effects I suggested have any randomness in them. Without the ability to randomly give extremely powerful effects, we won't create those rare situations where others see us as overpowered. Instead, we'd get the sort of consistent benefit that high-end raids can plan around.
yea I guess I can see both sides of the argument.
Perhaps increasing the strength of our Tactical Advantage damage buff and abilities that require it may be the boost we need? I did not see anyone take this route in suggestions.
It would not be too powerful since the abilities consume the tactical advantages (combo points) and making something like Lacerate stronger would be a nice alternative in our rotation to make up for a lack of "Execute" ability. Or they could even go the route of, "when the operative has 2 tactical advantages built up, Hidden strike no longer requires stealth OR backstab no longer requires positional
one could even theory-craft/argue that since Hidden strike has an energy cost in the first place, they originally intended to give us a way to use it out of stealth but perhaps just never did it.
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This message is hidden because Inarai is on your ignore list.
ugggh. Thank goodness for the ignore feature.
It was like saying 1+1=2 and another "person" (got warned for stating age) comes along and will stand by that it does not equal 2.
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Whether or not its accurate, metrics has become the standard terminology due entirely to the devs. Deal with it.
In any case, the point is the balancing is based on hard data, not player perspective. Hence to previous point that you have absolutely no way of knowing what the actual issue leading to the Op/Scoundrel nerf was.
You still don't get it, whether or not they used the term out of context THEY STILL CLAIMED it was based off database formulas NOT data mining. Period, end of story.
Secondly, incorrect again, because their HARD data as you say, again can only comprehend 10-20% of the outcome/root cause where as DIRECT PLAYER TESTING does 80-90%.
Lastly, we do have an idea, as it has been PROVEN. For instance, any video even just as an example of an operative/scoundrel PVPing before any of the nerfs where the operative/scoundrel was NOT using any adrenals or Expertise buffs, the damage was very close to balanced. That right there is evidence enough, at least to someone understands the chain of events from all the nerfs.
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It's not a bad suggestion, but it doesn't really fit with our existing playstyles. Healers don't WANT to be near the enemies, and Conceals would only use that sort of ability if it didn't break stealth. Ideally, we'd have a "shadow step" sort of ability where we'd just teleport to directly behind our target. Or just give us more speed boosts; instead of tying it to things like Debilitate (where we don't WANT to move much), put it on something like Countermeasures.
But it still comes back to the age-old question: What can we bring to a group that they can't get from other DPS classes? To me, the answer could be debuffs. By making our enemies weaker, we'd still be useful in situations where our sustainable DPS isn't as high as other classes.
> Imagine if Acid Blade, instead of adding 30% to our Armor Penetration, instead reduced the target's armor rating by ~20%, boosting DPS for our entire group/raid.
> Imagine if Jarring Strike, instead of a stun that doesn't work on boss mobs, added a "Daze" debuff that DID work on stun-immune enemies and caused all of their abilities to take longer to activate. (Great against instacast Sorcerers in PvP AND those long-charge boss abilities in raids.)
> Imagine if Collateral Strike's stun effect, which doesn't work against strong/elite/player enemies, acted as an interrupt (0s stun) against those enemies. We'd be the interruption specialists; everyone has the usual long-cooldown distraction abilities, but we'd have that AND an unpredictable-but-common interrupt on top of that.
> Imagine if Diagnostic Scan could be used both offensively and defensively, to where casting it on an ally increases the effectiveness of any heals he receives for a brief time, while casting it on an enemy increases the crit rate and/or surge of any attacks made against that enemy. (Tie this one to a Medicine talent like Patient Studies, so that Conceal/Lethality types can't get it.)
> Imagine if Cull added a stackable accuracy debuff to anyone it hits, tied to the License to Kill talent.
> Instead of only boosting the effect of your own DoTs, imagine if Weakening Blast boosted the damage of ALL DoTs dealt to the target.
I'm sure people can think of other ideas, but the point is, have our attacks weaken the target in a way that helps the rest of our team, and not just our own attacks. Groups would be more than happy to bring us along in raids, even if our DPS wasn't as high as the Sorcerers and Mercenaries, if we could do these sorts of things to make the raid as a whole stronger. It reminds me of Shamen in EQ; they might not have been the strongest healers, but they had a great series of resistance debuffs that made them essential in large raids. Given how much of high-end operations depends on enrage timers, things like armor debuffs could be HUGE.
I think a "Shadow-step" ability is the best way to go. But they also need to revert the first nerfs on Armor pen and hidden strike because the following changes (50s bracket, Biochem, and surge) did everything that was needed to balance operatives/scoundrels.
I like the idea of debuffs, but I think we need what every other class gets in their talents, and that is RNG. RNG as hated as it is, is a GREAT way to make a class more viable in PVE without making them TOO powerful in PVP. Especially because they are more easily balanced with internal cooldowns. I'd prefer if they just added to a single talent in each of the trees that added a % chance when using X ability to automatically execute X ability twice. Just make sure its not crappy like the corrosive dart one.
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Man, you're really missing some information. How, precisely, is something like a heat map of player death locations supposed to be generated without data from players?
Tip: That's one of the examples we've gotten regarding data generated by the metrics system.
You just answered your own question, at the same time reiterating the underlying issue I have already stated. Lack of testing (Direct player experimentation).
You can agree to disagree all you want but it still stands (not just based on what the devs stated either)
Data Mining =/= Metrics
Data Mining is the incorrect way to change/balance a game without taking a look at the metrics
Changing/Balancing the game based on metrics/data mining is the incorrect way WITHOUT doing direct player testing.
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No. The system in place collects metrics from the live servers. It is data generated by player behaviour - that's the entire point of it. You're referring to something else entirely.
Actually you are. It has already been stated they based it off their database formulas (and they used the word metrics).
Nothing however, has been said about collecting DATA (AKA Mining) from live servers, which would be even more stupid to begin with because, again the mass amount of factors that come into play (level/gear/skill/buffs)
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No. Player PERSPECTIVE is not valid data to do balancing off of. As for the metrics, that is entirely generated from players in the first place.
And it shouldn't be at all difficult to pull test cases from the metrics in order to perform direct experimentation upon problem and standard scenarios to see the impact of the change, very nicely isolating out other possible factors of change.
Wrong again. Their metrics are from their database formulas, NOT from players.
They could have of course misused the word "Metrics" the same way they did "Telemetry" and "Metrics" to them could actually be just "Forum Whines+no evidence".
PTS, Direct experimentation, is however from player and player perspective. Which is where 99% of any balance change must be tested as it effects the players, and the ACTUAL metrics(Formulas) will only show like 10% of the outcomes/possible root cause.
Considering they have already proven time and time again that the PTS is just for advertisement status, and not for actual testing or listening to the testers/evidence driven feedback, I am surprised you actually would argue the above.
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I see you don't want to actually think about what people have to say on the subject. Very well.
FYI: Telemetry isn't my word, it's the devs. I'll usually just go with metrics because, well, it's more appropriate.
Using a word out of context because someone else did the same before you does not make it right either, fyi.
Secondly, sure in SOME cases metrics are the first go-to line of testing BEFORE direct experimentation is done (EX: in game PTS testing). However, just because the first was done, does not mean the latter is no longer important, if anything it is the most important factor.
So still a fail, and my original post still awaits someone to actually post THEIR OWN, thoughts on the matter with intelligent data/observations to back it up.
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A: Doesn't effect telemetry - you look at specific confrontations to confirm the issue, not overall numbers. Depth is required.
B-D: Pretending you know what the specific numerically/mathematically/statistically defined issue was when in fact you cannot possibly have a clue because you don't have access to the required information.
Using words like telemetry without even understanding their meaning or how out of context they are for your own posts much less any of mine= -1
+1 for attempt though, I see your trying very hard to correct a mistake of looking ignorant, it's just having the opposite effect you desired.
Every part of what you said is in the same boat as well, so Rinse+Repeat my above post.
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,,, You're claiming that because of changes in universal factors, the class-specific factors that lead to overpowered characters would somehow no longer lead to overpowered characters.
Now THAT makes no sense. The game's balanced based on metrics - hard data of how much damage was being done and so on. Not based on forum whining suggesting that something might maybe be an issue. Which means that you either don't know how this game works, or are somehow making an error in logic and thinking that these global factors would change the relative power of Ops/Scoundrels - and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming the latter.
Again you still fail to see any logic and by the attitude would guess you are in the majority class wise (Sorc/Sage/Commando/Merc)..
A. Before all nerfs there were no 50s bracket. Ops/scounds were performing better than any other class on SUB lvl 40 players because thay are in design, front load burst.
B. With 50s bracket, the only concern that made them overpowered was the target being knocked down for too long with an un-desireable cooldown on CC breaks.
C. The Warzone Adrenal+Biochem adrenal stacking were allowing PVP geared operative/scoundrels to hit 6-8k Crits on NON PVP geared lvl 50 opponents. Even though both of these had and have a lengthy cooldown, this was deemed too powerful. So a shared cooldown was in place.
D. The DR and %per point on Surge was nerfed further reducing ALL classes (which includes ops/scounds) Max end damage on crits (which COULD hit 5-6k WITH Adrenal+relic stack) yet had a lengthy cooldown.
Returning the 50% armor pen on AB/FR and the damage on HS/SF would NOT in ANYWAY shape or form even return them to HALF of their glory before ALL of the above changes because it was the ABOVE changes that were making them out-of-line NOT what was nerfed in the first place (minus the knockdown change)
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Nice try, but no.
See, those are universal factors. They do not relate to any single class being overpowered.
You realize that made no sense in relation to what I posted right?
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So now, you must obviously realize that you need to undo the armor pen nerf on Acid Blade/Flechette round and the Hidden strike/Shoot first damage nerf. You can however,KEEP the knockdown+resolve reduction to Jarring Strike/K.O. As the full duration was too long to keep a player out of the fight.
The 50's Bracket + Biochem/buff stack nerf + Surge nerf should have been done FIRST, since even 2/3 of those already fixed ANY problem people were having with operative/scoundrels doing too much damage. If you think this has not been proven to be true, feel free (to the devs) to ACTUALLY test them yourselves or ACTUALLY give us character copy to PTS with the nerfs mentioned in the first paragraph lifted to test ourselves.
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Huttball exacerbates the imbalance.
Most classes have mobility skills --sprints, leaps, knockbacks, pulls -- various ways to bypass the environmental hazards or use those hazards to kill. Operatives have nothing in this regard. As Huttball is basically a tiny room filled with fire and acid pools, and Huttball is 80% of the PvP action on many servers, this skill gap is emphasized.
I don't feel underpowered in Civil War or Voidstar. I do just fine on Ilum. In Huttball, however, an Operative is like a drunken fan who ran onto the field, expecting to compete with the actual athletes
so true....
Just as a part comedic and part serious suggestion, maybe they should give us a reverse pull.
In game example of a fight with it:
Acid Blade--> Hidden Strike --> Attach Tether --> Backstab-->
Where "attach Tether" skill basically attaches you to the target for X amount of seconds with X cooldown, basically making you immune to knockbacks and a possible downside/upside is if they are knockedback by a teammate you go with them. If they sprint away for the duration you get equal speed as long as you stay within say 10 meters.
Could also have it attach you to the back of the target or maybe do a "resource" DoT (something this game is lacking, EX: Drains Force power/Ammo/Energy over time).
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LOL I keep seeing stuff like this.
Do people not realize that they make no sense cause they are basically saying 'I probably outgear most players in warzones and since I can kill them 1v1, the class is fine'.
Well actually 9/10 those posts are from non-operative players that got killed by a very skilled one (or they just suck) and want to make it seem like the class is okay, so they will post the same lies in all the threads they can find. This isn't the first time nor the first game this has happened in.
I think after the surge and biochem nerf, they should just give us back the 50% armor pen on AB, and bring back up HS to damage before the first nerf.
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Thanks for the clarification, obviously if you played any other MMO when it says it lowers resistances it would mean something entirely different to you as it did me.
Thanks again.
So for us operatives. Would you say getting to 35% critical chance (self buffed) 70% critical damage then going all out for power is best option now?
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Tried to post this in the PVP forum but it kept going to page 3 within 10 seconds.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=300775
Seems to be few and far between posts about clarifying Accuracy but no real proof (probably from lack of damage logs)
For instance, lets take an Operative. With many abilities based off of their tech damage and bonus damage to it. However accuracy tooltip in the same section mentioned over 100% lowers targets resistances.
First off, Want to know if this works like all other games and actually continues to lower resistances even if the target has 0% resistance. EX: 120% accuracy against 0% resist target = -20% resist to that attack.
Secondly would like to know if this is for certain only considered a resistance negation against the "tech damage" or does it actually equate into actual abilities modifiers (EX: Kinetic/Internal).
If it works like you would suspect. Stacking Accuracy+Power would actually be exponentially better than any other stat choices
however... Since as I said has been few and far between in discussion with NO proof or dev clarification. Also since it would take a bit to get to like 120% accuracy which is where you would def notice with/without it if it was an actual 20% damage boost by causing resists to negate.Also what I meant by clarification on resist type, is better explained by the following question regarding the formula::
If I hit X attack that does kinetic would it be A or B?
A. Tech Attack =1000 Kinetic damage - (target kinetic resist - (accuracy -100))
B. Tech Attack = 1000 Kinetic damage - (target tech resist -(accuracy -100))
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Having negative resistance doesn't make you take elevated damage or Accuracy will be noticeably better than any other DPS skill in the game for Force/Tech classes. The difference will be so profound that you should find yourself much weaker the moment you unslot your accuracy mods that nobody would ever contemplate doing such a thing.
Since Force/Tech resistance is practically nonexistent (Force Shroud grants 200% to each BTW, not 100% as tooltip indicates, which makes piercing FS impossible), there's no point to have accuracy with Force/Tech based attacks. This is why Sorcerer gear does not come with Accuracy, because they only use Force attacks.
The damage type has nothing to do with the damage classification. Force Shroud will resist a Force/Tech attack that does kinetic, energy, internal, or elemental damage.
Never was arguing anything about force shroud...
however... Since as I said has been few and far between in discussion with NO proof or dev clarification. Also since it would take a bit to get to like 120% accuracy which is where you would def notice with/without it if it was an actual 20% damage boost by causing resists to negate.
Also what I meant by clarification on resist type, is better explained by the following question regarding the formula::
If I hit X attack that does kinetic would it be A or B?
A. Tech Attack =1000 Kinetic damage - (target kinetic resist - (accuracy -100))
B. Tech Attack = 1000 Kinetic damage - (target tech resist -(accuracy -100))
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bump 2 seconds and already left front page
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Seems to be few and far between posts about clarifying Accuracy but no real proof (probably from lack of damage logs)
For instance, lets take an Operative. With many abilities based off of their tech damage and bonus damage to it. However accuracy tooltip in the same section mentioned over 100% lowers targets resistances.
First off, Want to know if this works like all other games and actually continues to lower resistances even if the target has 0% resistance. EX: 120% accuracy against 0% resist target = -20% resist to that attack.
Secondly would like to know if this is for certain only considered a resistance negation against the "tech damage" or does it actually equate into actual abilities modifiers (EX: Kinetic/Internal).
If it works like you would suspect. Stacking Accuracy+Power would actually be exponentially better than any other stat choices
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Yeah that would be nice. But we can't prove that their mechanic is broken because we don't have combat logs/parses to show them.
Well if someone can test it by stacking enough accuracy to get a pretty high amount past 100%, the damage difference should be noticeable if it actually counts negatively against resistance rather than stopping at 0%
just think of the possibilities if it does work like that/you would expect it to.
2/22/2012 -> Can we get an update on where the Combat Log is?
in General Discussion
Posted
If your DPS is sub-par, you should be removed? That is the point?