So you want to gate PvP gear progression through raids, then? If you really love PvP, you need to join a raiding guild post-haste, and raid your little butt off, so you can get the gear you need to PvP?

I know it doesn't seem that way when you're unlucky, but a luck based system is actually the most egalitarian system there is.

What, specifically, are you referring to?

WoW did not have bolster, so that's not a functional analogy. It IS like queuing for Warsong Gulch and finding a bunch of twinks with best in slot gear for the level range dominating the battleground as thoroughly and completely as level 50s are dominating war zones. I understand the desire for brackets, but they're not really a long term solution to this particular woe. As long as you're playing in a system that allows for and encourages competition gaps, you're always going to have people striving to play with a massive advantage over you. They're going to have more gear, or be higher level, or they'll run a pre-made against your PUG, or they'll twink.

And this would be another ad hominem attack. The only person flaming here is you. All I'm doing is drawing attention to it and asking you to stop.

This is an ad hominem attack. Not only is it against forum rules, it doesn't exactly make you out to be the paragon of maturity you're presenting yourself as. I actively avoided EVER getting rest xp to slow down the rate at which I was leveling to avoid having huge swaths of content go grey. I also avoided space combat and PvP while leveling for the same reason. I'm not one of the "LOL level faster" crowd because I know everyone has their own responsibilities and lifestyles, and everyone should be comfortable to level at their own pace, but painting people who are level 50 in a game with brisk, easy leveling like TOR as "basement dwellers" is infantile.

I might suggest you manage your expectations better. It's nice to assume that because you bought a game it will be all things to all people, but life seldom works out that way.

The difference at level 50 between shielding and DPS offhands isn't particularly "small".

I'm not sure why you expected a robust PvP experience. TOR was never marketed that way. It's like accusing Valve of paying lip service to turn based strategy gamers when they released Half Life 2. The fact there's PvP in the game at all is something of a marvel. It's not exactly Bioware's raison d'etre.

2nd MMO then? This is hardly a new phenomenon.

There's really no need to defend competition gaps. It's lazy, terrible game design. On the other hand, there's really no point in whining about them either, since this is the way the game was designed, and level is the least severe competition gap there is thanks to bolster, and once you get to 50 you're just going to go through the same nonsense all over again getting ROFLstomped by champion geared premades.

Expertise exists for the same reason it existed in WoW. They want to allow PvPers to pursue their gear grind via PvP. Otherwise, the best PvP gear is also the best PvE gear, and the only way to compete on an even footing with the best geared players is to raid. Which makes about as much sense as requiring raiders to run battlegrounds to gear up.

Brackets are not your problem. Level is just one form of competition gap. Once you get to 50 and start getting rolled by geared up players and premades, you'll be back in the same boat you are now. Bracketing is just forestalling the inevitable. At some point in your PvP career, you are going to be meat for wolves. Best to just accept it.

Alas, this is how they designed the game, and I don't see it changing at this juncture. I never really expected TOR to be a heavy hitter in terms of quality PvP though.

I'm doing most of the talking about premades, and I'm not complaining about them. I'm saying premades should be matched against premades, and that's it. You always want to create as even a playing field as possible. Premades have access to tools and a level of cohesion PUGs cannot dream of. If the goal is to create a PvP system that rewards skill, you want the premades in their own bracket. The premades should be as excited to see that happen as anyone.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but you always need to approach the question of PvP balancing from the perspective of "all things being equal". There's no way you can guarantee you're going to have a bunch of skilled, team-work loving lowbies on your side, or that their 50's are going to be a bunch of disorganized rabble. I'm always in favor of the most equal match possible, so I understand the desire for brackets. The long term issue is that the same problem everyone is moaning about now with the 1-50 disparity is going to be there again at 50, only this time it'll be a gear gap, not a level gap, and that's a gap that takes a lot longer to close. TLDR version, I sympathize with the problem, but also acknowledge the problem isn't going to go away, and the bracket change isn't going to fix anything for anyone long term.

It's not that people playing together is a negative, and I don't want this to turn into another "nerf tactics!" debate where this perception exists that separating premades and pugs is somehow punishing people for playing together. The ultimate goal of ANY PvP system should always be to create as close a match as possible. Why? Because close matches are ultimately the most rewarding for everyone involved. They're fun, they're exciting, and they're addictive. Premades have a massive natural advantage over PUGs. Everyone has an anecdotal story about that one time they lead a PUG to victory over a shoddy premade, but 999 times out of 1000, that premade is going to roll to an easy, lopsided victory, if not a grotesque rout. That's not good for anyone. The premade will be bored, and the PUG players will eventually stop queuing because spending 90% of a match dead on the ground isn't rewarding for anyone. Pitting premades against premades allows for high level, competitive games. Pitting PUGs against PUGs allows for messy free for alls, which are enjoyable in their own way. Everyone wins. Everyone benefits.

Did it make more sense for the Alliance and Horde to be playing capture the flag?

Not my thread, hero. I'm not even complaining. I was richly rewarded last night for doing very little that was actually constructive. Not being an idiot, and having played MMOs, including competitive PvP for over 13 years, I can recognize a silly system when I see one. Grats on doing PvP since you were 21, though. That's what, a few weeks now? Your veteran expertise on issues of game design is clearly astonishing.

I dunno. I killed a few lowbies last night in no more than a couple of global cooldowns, and they barely scratched me in return. I'm not sure how much fun they were having. Maybe they were screaming "WHEEE" as they went back to the medical bay over and over again. Maybe that's their thing. Lopsided matches are still lopsided, and not everyone enjoys banging their head against insurmountable odds. I agree with you that roflstomping people with little resistance isn't tremendously more enjoyable, but at least it's profitable.

Medal farming and what rewards medals is a whole other kettle of fish. The point remains that level brackets is not going to cure the pre-made vs PUG problem.

Hutt-ball is tactics friendly. And pre-mades will STILL be doing that exact same thing against PUGs. The fact it's 50's vs 10's makes the problem even worse, but the PRE-MADES are the problem even moreso than the 50's. A team of organized 10's could win a match against a disorganized bunch of 50's a lot easier than they could against a pre-made of 10's. Communication/group cohesion are massive advantages in PvP. Pre-made vs PUG has been an issue since the first PvP game surfaced, and will still be a problem 20 years from now.

That. Won't. Fix. Anything. It. Will. Eventually. Make. The. Problem. Worse.

It's cool, and congratulations on being classy enough to acknowledge it. All I'm saying is "I'd mess you up in the pub" is just as ridiculous as "l2p noob" in terms of the amount of eye rolling it provokes. Not that I don't want to mess some of these people up in a pub from time to time.

Yeah. I ran into a few heavily kitted out players in the WZ's last night, and it was like hitting a brick wall. Presumably it's their incredible skill that had me hitting them for hugely reduced damage, and had their attacks hitting me for 75% of my health in one shot. Maybe if I pushed my hotkeys harder I would do more damage, I dunno. Gear gaps are going to be a fact of life in this game, though. Might as well get used to it.