Thinking of going with this spec for my pure PvE tank spec. I mostly just use my tank character to run Ops and the occasional hardmode FP. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101fMG0ubrkuRZhG.1 This build leaves me with two free talent points. In the immortal tree I can see adding 2/2 Thrown Gauntlet having some benefit. Faster Threatening Scream means more Sonic Barrier procs, which translates to more damage mitigated and less strain on the healers. 2/3 Heavy Handed increases damage on Backhand, Smash, and Sweeping Slash by 15%. This translates to more threat when backhand is used, and more threat/damage for AoE tanking trash when using Smash and Sweeping Slash. I can also see a benefit to placing those two points in Dreadnaught (Vengeance tree) for a 6% increase in strength since that would benefit many Jugg attacks by doing more damage (which translates to more threat). Right now, I'm waffling between 2/2 Thrown Gauntlet or 2/2 Dreadnaught. While I like the benefit 2/3 Heavy Handed brings, my main goal is to better my tanking for boss fights, not trash. Since Heavy Handed mostly is geared towards attacks that are used on AoE trash pulls, its usefulness for a boss encounter is diminished (IMO) outside a slight buff to backhand, which itself can only be used once every minute. Thoughts (and the logic behind them) are greatly appreciated! Oh, gear wise I'm in Columi gear, with just my earpiece and implants being Tionese. Weapon is the tanking lightsaber Quel Droma form HM False Emperor.

I would say no. Why? Well, think about it logically. Say you as the tank are top of the aggro list with 1,000 threat. You use your taunt as part of a rotation. If taunt simply matches the threat of whoever is top of the list, and that individual at the top is you the tank with 1,000 threat, then you just wasted a taunt because you simply matched your own threat of 1,000. Now what happens when your taunt is on cooldown (because you use it as part of a rotation) and you actually need it (maybe because a DPS surpassed you on the list, or because the boss wipes threat intermittently, etc.)? Sure you could argue just use your AE taunt, but there may be times the MT doesn't shouldn't use an AE taunt (e.g. boss and adds and you just want boss and OT wants adds).

Just got done tanking EV and one thing I noticed tonight is that many boss mobs seem to do an aggro-wipe multiple times during their encounter. For example, when Gharj leaps from one platform to another he appears to wipe his threat and will go after whoever at that point in time generates threat first. I believe when SOA first comes out of his immunity shield he also wipes threat. I save my backhand for these points in the encounter and have far fewer problems getting and maintaining aggro. My guess is aggro wiping mobs are probably the cause of a lot of Jugg tank heartache because they believe they are losing aggro to the DPSers simply generating more threat when in reality it's a mechanic of the fight causing an aggro wipe. Normally on a pull I start with saber throw and force charge. This builds 6 rage. I follow up with smash then force scream then backhand. Usually this opener builds sufficient threat. Personally, I don't include my taunts in my routine rotation and instead I save them for when I do lose aggro. Gharj is a good example of when to save your taunt. After he jumps from one platform to the next he will stun you (the tank), wipe aggro, and and then make a B line for your healer or that one DPSers in your raid that always starts doing damage just a second too soon (usually resulting in his death and subsequent griping about not getting heals). If your Unleashed is up use it, and then you can immediately taunt Gharj to you. If it is not up, well then you best hope your OT can quickly pick him up until the stun wears off of you. As a Jugg tank I really don't have that bad of a problem getting and maintaining aggro in an Operation (and hardmode FPs are a piece of cake) unless it's a fairly large pack of mobs like those dogs things just before Gharj or some of the trash packs clearing up to to the puzzle encounter. Granted, my tanking experience is limited to EV (have yet to do Karagga's or EV on nightmare mode). Do I wish Jugg tanks generated more AoE threat? Sure. But then if we did it would somewhat render the two tank classes that are supposed to excel at AoE tanking (Powertechs and Assassins) pretty much secondary tanks to Juggs. If Jugg tanks were best at single target and very good at AoE, why even roll a Powertech or Assassin for tanking purposes? If there was any change I would like to see to Jugg tanks it would either be a talent in the Immortal tree that reduced the cooldown of backhand, and/or a talent that increased threat generation to Smash.

I didn't play much past the first expansion. Gave up playing video games altogether pretty much after that. I tried coming back to gaming with Rift, but lasted maybe 3-4 months (mostly because my pals were not playing it). ToR and BF3 are first games I've really put time into since then. I enjoy BF3 since its straight forward and mindless. ToR, well it has been fun because I love Star Wars, but it is probably time to put the 'ole account on hold for a bit.

So you feel that the addition of one four-person level 50 flashpoint in two months time, at an additional cost of $15 to you, is sufficient content at a good value. I disagree. We can agree to disagree. I did, it de-spawned on my twice. There was a time when $50 bought you a stand alone game that would be 50-100 hours of entertainment. Then 6-8 months months later a add-on would be released (new levels, new places, etc.) that might have cost $15-$20 and added an additional 20-50 hours of game time. I'm not sure anymore what the value is of paying a monthly subscription for a MMO. Am I paying just so the developers can fix bugs? Paying in advance for a future add-on? Perhaps my gaming expectations have simply changed. I kinda view an MMO like a book that I bought for $60 and now spend an additional $15/month to read regardless of whether I take my time to read the book over 6 months or I finish it in the first 6 weeks. Sure at some point in the future the author will add a new chapter or two, and each month he/she will go back and fix some typos in earlier chapters, but is that worth $15/mo? Guess it all depends on how fast you read.

There is a difference between a content patch, and your routine patches to fix bugs and stuff. The game has only seen one "content" patch to date that added a new level 50 flashpoint (Kaon under Seige).

Might just do that. Seems I'm just hanging on because I don't want to let down my guild/friends. But I suspect many of them are in the same boat.

Perhaps, but prior MMOs had a much, much slower pace and higher difficulty level. My guild in ToR cleared EV on our first shot in ~3 hours. Only SoA presented a challenge, and that was mostly because it kept bugging on us (players stuck in Mind Traps, etc.). Conversely when my same guild tackled WoW our first time, then Blackwing Lair, it took us countless hours and hours to down even the first boss. This dichotomy is somewhat the genesis for my original post (and use of the much misunderstood word "irony"). I have no desire to go back to raiding being like it was in vanilla WoW, but at the same time IMO that level of difficulty and commitment that is lacking in ToR thus creating a game with a much faster pace. In vanilla WoW that difficulty meant there was ample time for the developers to put in more content (game launched with Molten Core and Ony and then Blackwing Lair was added later if memory serves).

I always viewed levels 1-49 as training. Leveling up teaches you how to play your class, how to use your abilities, etc. That way by the time you reach max level you are competent at your role. Also, leveling up gives you a chance to realize if you like your chosen class or not with little investment of time. By the time you reach levels 10-20 you have a good understanding of whether you like your class/role, and if you don't the time spent coming to that realization is minimal so starting anew does't feel like a burden.

Infinite content would be impossible to have. But we do pay $15/month for something.

True, but then why pay $15/mo for potentially months and months until the next content patch comes out? Kinda defeats the whole point of a subscription based MMO, paying to not play while you wait for the developers to put in more content.

I agree with you that raiding isn't the only thing that provides a sense of accomplishment. But, at the same time it is what current MMOs center their end-game content around. At some point most everyone will reach level 50 and have an expectation that for $15/month there will be something to do other than starting over from scratch on an alt. If the point of a MMO is to reach end-game then start over again, just so you can keep interested in the game, then why pay $15/month? Just load up Neverwinter Nights (or any other single player game) and play it to the end then start over again and save yourself $15/mo.

Content shouldn't necessarily be measured in hours in a game that isn't supposed to be finite. If I want to play the same content over and over and over again I might as well just go play Battlefield 3 (which doesn't cost me $15/month).

I think people are finding out that two months after the game opened (sorry, 58 days for you fanbois that will nitpick the time line) there are copious level 50s sitting around Fleet looking spiffy in their sets of epic class gear with little to do other than wait for the reset on the games two raids. And no, those people don't count as the "hard core" players. The hardcore players hit level 50 one to two weeks after the game launched and have probably already quit playing by now. It is just so easy and fast to reach end-game in ToR that by this time post launch even many of your casual players are level 50 sitting in fleet trying to find something to do. Expecting years worth of end-game content at launch is not a realistic expectation. But, expecting sufficient end-game content at launch (in a game that makes getting to end-game fast and easy) to keep people marginally occupied until the first major content patch is released is a reasonable expectation.

The difference in each class spec is marginal. Most the abilities a BH Merc has are the same abilities a BH Powertech has. The flashpoints are the same whether you play a Sith Warrior or a Bounty Hunter (only difference is each faction has 1-2 flashpoints specific to them (i.e. Black Talon for Empire, Essles for Republic, etc.). Yes and no. I think ToR has a good amount of very enjoyable content from level 1-49. There are nearly a dozen flashpoints for you to experience on the journey to level 50. There are over a dozen worlds to explore (that are beautifully designed I might add). But then you hit 50 and you quickly realize there isn't much to do. Sure you CAN roll an alt (which I did), but then by the time you reach level 40 yo realize your just repeating everything you did on your first character (same planets, same quests, same mobs, same flashpoints). The only difference is your few class-specific quests, which IMO isn't sufficient content to keep most people's interest. I would build a game backwards. Start with the concept that everyone is level 50 and then design the game with sufficient content to keep max level players occupied and interested for x time frame until your first planned major content patch.

Sure there are 8 separate classes. But guess what, the character specific quests probably only account for 5% of the quests you will run on any given character. The other 95% of the content will be you running the same world quests, killing the same mobs, and running the same flashpoints that you did on every other character. And once you get to 50, it's all the same, regardless of your class.

That, or some of us are simply burned out on the current MMO model (which was created by EQ and established as a big money maker by WoW). No matter how much the fanbois may disagree, ToR is simply another EQ/WoW clone. I like some of the stuff ToR has brought to the genre (just like Rift added a few nice amenities), but I think at the end of the day it didn't really raise the bar. For example, the voiced cut scenes for quests were cool, but guess what? The second time around (on my alt) I found myself skipping them (except for the class-quest ones)). Same for the flashpoint cut scenes. Cool the first time, but after that you skip them to save time. IMO the current crop of MMOs fail to realize that eventually everyone reaches the max level and needs robust content to keep them coming back for more. As you level your character the leveling and reaching the next level is the content that keeps you coming back for more. Like finishing one chapter in a good book and looking forward to the next. A lack of substantial end-game content IMO is what is missing from most, if not all, current big-name MMOs.

Bingo! Once you hit 50, then what? Well, you can run the same flashpoints you ran along the road to 50 over and over and over again (just at a harder setting) so you can gear-up to run the operations. Okay, fine so you do that. Then all there is left to do is run the same two operations over and over and over again just to gear up to do what? Run the same two operations at a harder setting. The crafting in the game, the space combat, heck even the PvP is just a distraction, like the side salad that comes with your steak dinner. So you roll and alt but then you are just running the same quests on the same planets and the same flashpoints you experienced on your main all over again. And eventually that alt hits 50 and guess what, same problem you experienced with your main character once he/she hit 50. I almost feel like what is missing in MMOs today is a developer focus on end-game content, since that is where everyone eventually ends up. In WoW the lack of end-game content at launch was (somewhat) acceptable because it took a much longer time to reach max level (which gave the developers time to implement end-game content post launch). In ToR, getting to end-game is a walk in the park and can be done fairly quickly, even by casual players.

That could very well be it. WoW came out in 2004, back when many of my guildmates were still in their early to mid 20s. Now many are in their 30s, married with kids. I was chatting with one last night who mentioned that ToR just doesn't seem to be holding his interest. He went on to say he wasn't sure if he was losing interest in ToR, or in MMOs in general. I think I feel the same way. For me, creating and leveling a character is like the beginning and middle chapters of a book. You get to see the character develop and change over time. End-game is like the final chapters of a book where everything that has been leading up to that moment comes to a coclusion. A great book has a good end to it. I guess I personally just feel like ToR (and maybe now MMOs in general) all have done a fantastic job with the intro and body chapters, but then the end of the book leaves you with no sense of "wow that was amazing" closure.

Lets see, a substantial majority of subscribers gained access to the game around December 13th, and it's February 8th. That is 58 days. That is pretty darn close to two months time. What is the next thing you fanbois are going to nitpick?

Irony has multiple definitions, one of which is: an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected. To me, its ironic that my expectation (sense of reward and accomplishment) is contrary to the reality of my experiences with ToR's end-game content while at the same time my experiences with EQ/WoW raiding was a sense of reward and accomplishment from something that for all intents and purposes most people thought to be unrewarding.

So here we are, just a few months after the game became available for retail play, and pretty much most of my guild and friends list is populated by people that no longer log in and play. I enjoy ToR, but I found myself today logging in, then just a few minutes later, logging out. After I logged out I realized something rather ironic. When I played EQ then WoW the games became like a second job. The grind to max level was slower and more arduous than in ToR, and hitting max level was really just the beginning of your second job. After hitting max level came the less than enjoyable process of keying for instances (and helping guildies get keyed), the time consuming process of gathering materials needed for raiding (potions, elixirs, flasks, etc.), not to mention the sheer countless hours spent trying to actually beat the boss fights. But the payoff was a real sense of accomplishment and reward for your hard work when you and 39 other people defeated a boss or cleared the whole instance. That sense of accomplishment is what kept many people coming back week after week to raid. I in no way wish to ever go back to my video games being a second job. And eventually that level of involvement burned most people out. But after logging out of ToR tonight it made me realize something that I feel is missing in ToR, that sense of accomplishment and reward. Here we are, just a mere few months after the game was released and I've experienced almost all the content the game has to offer. The thought of running the game's two operations over and over again, just to gear up so we can run the same operations over and over again but at a harder setting, just doesn't seem to have much appeal. I guess I simply find it ironic that what made EQ or WoW raiding rewarding is precisely what few people want anymore in their MMOs (myself included), but then when we get what we want (easier MMOs) many of us are incapable of achieving that same sense of accomplishment and reward that keeps us coming back week after week (even if we griped and complained the whole time about it). Maybe future MMO makers will consider this, and put more emphasis on their end-game content than just the journey there. Afterall, while the journey is fun, eventually you get to the end of it and need something that keeps you coming back for more.

Pretty simple actually, because once you have predominately Columi/Tionese gear mitigation isn't much of an issue. So spending two talent points to produce a 5% reduction in mob accuracy doesn't really buy you much benefit. Also, for those pulls where you need to CC mobs, and therefore cannot use Smash, two talent points spent in Quake would be wasted.

I lose aggro on trash, but that isn't an issue since its usually just the regular mobs that I'm ignoring and the DPS is burning down. On boss fights I'm losing aggro to DPS, both ranged and melee. Usually it's within the first 20 seconds of the fight that it happens. After that, I can usually maintain aggro.

This is the build I'm currently using: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cMGcdrrkuRZhG.1 Since my original post, I've upgraded some gear to mostly Columi/Tionese. Only orange item I have left is my saber, which is modded with highest epic mods I could get my hands on. Unbuffed stats are now: 18,360 health 7,271 Armor Rating 46.33% Damage Reduction 22.66% Defense Chance 38.13% Shield Chance 27.17% Shield Absorption 98.88% Accuracy My lesser geared guildmates are still ripping aggro from me. I resorted to asking them to hold off on pulls for 3-5 seconds. Typically I start with Saber Throw followed by Force Charge. Then Smash (for both single and muti-target packs unless using it would break CC) then Force Scream (for Sonic Barrier). After that I do one Crushing Blow and one Sundering Assault to get up 5 stacks of armor debuff. Next I usually do backhand. Normally before I can get this opening rotation off, I have to taunt because one of the DPS has pulled aggro. The more I play my Jugg, the more I believe our threat modifiers need a boost. When we run EV the difference between how things go with our Powertech tank (who is about equally geared as me) versus me is night and day. The raid goes much, much smoother with the powertech tank. If backhand is going to remain our ONLY high threat attack, IMO it needs a much lower cooldown, like 20 seconds (versus its current 1 min), to help us hold aggro better. That, or make Crushing Blow a "high threat" attack as well.