My gut has little to do with it. CCP reports between 400K and 500K active players, unknown number of total subscriptions. EA reports between 500K and 1000K total subscribers, unknown number of actual players. One of EA's larger investors thinks it's below the break even point of 500K. EA reports the trend of at least 300K subscriptions out the door every quarter. So, let's play your game and assume that TOR's still barely holding a lead on EVE (lol, by the way, at getting to write that); it won't by the next quarterly report if trending continues. There's nothing to indicate it won't. EVE has or is about to have more active players than TOR.

I don't much give a crap about it, either. It does amuse me, however, that it's a more successful game than TOR.

Really? So you have exact numbers on how large TOR's active player base is? Of course you don't. Nor do I. I'm going with Goldman Sachs' analysis that it's below the profitability line, though - which would be 500K - and drawing my conclusion from that. So. TOR's below 500K active, EVE's below 500K active - but potentially over it in terms of actual subscribers. Yeah, keep banging that, "Nuh uh, TOR's beating EVE, seriously!" drum, buddy. I guess you really need the small, illusory victories at this point.

Xfire? Really? When did we enter the timewarp to 2007?

No, I said CCP reports only active subscribers. I don't think you understand what I'll mean, so I'll explain. A hell of a lot of six-month subscriptions are about to run out in TOR. Those (already cancelled) subscriptions would not be reported by CCP. They are reported by EA.

I don't think it's a guaranteed success; I do think it has a far, far better chance of being a massive success than anything put out by EA, owner of...God, how many failed MMOs is it now?

No, I said EVE had a larger player base. Not more subscriptions. EVE, as I said above, reports active numbers rather than absolutes.

There wasn't a number released for TOR, actually, but EA claims it's at least 500K. CCP only reports active numbers - people actually logging into their game. EA reports trial subscriptions, cancelled subscriptions that haven't yet expired, etc. Goldman Sachs, during the conference call, brought up this very point, more or less, and EA not only declined to specify, but hung up on them. EVE's got a larger player base than TOR.

Smaller niche games like EVE? You're aware EVE has a larger active player base than TOR at this point, right?

It doesn't matter what I define as regular game updates. It matters what they define as regular game updates. And, more importantly, what they define as something else.

No, I'm telling you they haven't said that in black and white. All they've said in black and white is that subscribers will receive "regular Game Updates" without having to pay any additional. You are reading that as, "Subscribers will never have to pay for non-expansion content!" That is not what it says.

You cannot say that with any certainty, as they certainly haven't. But hey, if you trust EA, you trust EA. Even Charles Manson had people who thought he was a good guy.

Well, this very thread tells you how many they've lost since then. And most of those have come from the East. Therefore, mathematically, they're over 4 mil. Simple, really, as long as you're not trying to twist the math to prove an insane point about WoW and TOR being similar in appeal and success.

I wouldn't recommend it, no. I certainly won't be playing it. On the other hand, that's a bad example, as GW2 isn't trying to gouge a subscription out of you at the same time as they're trying to get you to pay for content updates.

You're technically right, as LotRO had the gall to label some of their fairly minor content pushes as "expansion packs."

Just like they promised monthly content updates on release, and everybody dropped their sub eight months on when it was clear they were full of it? Nah. If you're sticking through this, they know you're begging to be milked. It's how F2P works.

No, paid subs in TOR get (as they say at the moment, anyway) all regular Game Updates. As I said, the second they want to circumvent that, they release content classified as...well, anything else. I know, I know. EA would never do that. It's not like they cut content from single-player games to sell as Day One DLC or anything, right?

Well, some guy in Belgium says so, so it must be true.

Is English your first language? I'm honestly asking, not trying to be a jerk, because I think the confusion may lie in a failure to comprehend what was said. Saying that most of their subscription losses have come from the East does not mean that most of their subs are in the East. Just that most (more than 50%, less than 100%) of their subscription losses are in the East.

You cannot guarantee that, so it's best not to pretend as though you can. The statement is vague at best.

I've heard some laughable things on this forum before, but that honestly has to take the cake. You're saying a company - any company, really - would leave money on the table when there's more to be had? You're absolutely out of your mind. WoW's the market leader. By huge, huge margins. Even if we go with your ridiculous number - that you clearly made up - they're still so far ahead of their nearest competitors that it's not even remotely close. Others have shown you repeatedly now that their subscription losses are coming from the East, not the West. You continue to insist the game is losing Western subs in massive numbers. WoW is making more money than anyone else in the business, by huge margins. By the time they're ready to go F2P - if they ever do, which I doubt - they'll have Titan ready to go. And if you don't think that thing will sell, well...I don't know what to tell you, except, "Wake up! It's time to go to school!"

Man, I remember when I got drunk at work once, too. Even I didn't say anything that crazy. Dude must've been Jaegerbombing since breakfast.

Ah, I see. You're trying to suggest that some other MMO is remotely close to WoW in terms of Western subscribers. You're still wildly wrong.

No, we don't. That link you posted is very specific on what content subscribers will be granted without having to pay additional cost. It does not say "all future content." It says "Unlimited access to regular Game Updates such as new Nightmare Mode content, a brand new Operation on the planet of Asation, a new Heroic mission series on the prison planet of Belsavis, and a brand new Warzone for our PvP lovers." They want to charge you for content, they just won't call it a regular Game Update. You know. Sort of like LotRO.

No. We do not know that for sure. We know if you pay a sub, you'll have access to all content currently in the game. Nowhere have they promised that you will have access to all future content just because you pay a subscription.