Survivability is pretty much unchanged in PvE. Sages/Sorcs are still taking more damage which means they either require additional healing from the healers or they have to stop DPSing in order to heal themselves (along with all the problems that creates). The changes to Force Barrier are not as helpful in PvE as PvP because the new addition is based on how long the Barrier is channeled and Channeling time is time not doing your role. It also remains unusable in certain circumstances (six finger phase on Brontes where if used it can lead to a wipe). The problem stem from the fact that Sages/Sorcs have no way to mitigate damage unless they stop DPSing combined with light armor resulting in more damage taken.

1) Execute. An Execute would be nice, particularly in Madness/Balance. However, Executes serve to increase overall DPS, by increasing DPS on low health targets. Bioware has already indicated that they are looking to adjust DPS for Madness/Balance. In that thread, numerous suggestions on increasing dps with some form of execute (project as execute, increasing DOT damage on targets below 30% or a new talent) were made. Bioware appears to be heading in a different direction. While an Execute would be nice, I don't believe we can get both DPS brought up to par and an Execute on top of that (that would put our total DPS above others). 2) Skill Taxes. I did see the post yesterday. It does raise some interesting points, particularly in PvP specs. I didn't respond earlier because it was an issue I hadn't focused on before and I wanted to think about it more before responding. I have not done an analysis regarding Sage/Sorc skill tree taxes myself. It does require comparing our trees to other classes. I think it may be worth raising (and keeping the visuals question as a bonus fourth question). I would note that Balance/Madness has no real way to grab the new Egress without creating even more force management issues (something that even with the changes will still be an issue in PvP/multiple DOT target scenarios). While it is less of an issue in PvE, it is true that Sages/Sorcs really have very few "choose what you like" points. I would also not try to put this into the survival question. Even though it involves Egress, I think it is a separate issue. 3) Off-healing. Been covered before but Off-healing is somewhat viable in PvP and low level PvE (story-mode and even Hard-modes). Off-healing is really not viable in NiM PvE Progression: a) Enrage timers/fight mechanics generally require maximum DPS. Taking time away from DPS simply hurts the Operations chances of success given enrage timers/burn phases/fight mechanics. b) Lack of Pushback Resistance compounds the problem. Importantly, the times when off-healing to keep the Operation alive is most needed is often during moments when their is AOE damage to the entire raid (think Titan VI final phase). DPS sages lack any form of pushback resistence on our heals. A 1.5 second heal can easily turn into 2.5 seconds (often resulting in less healing done than the corresponding damage taken during the cast time). Our 3 second heal can easily turn into 4 seconds or more. c) Cost. While TK/Lightning may not have major force issues and can afford to use some heals (from a force management perspective), even with the changes in 2.7, Madness/Balance will still have force management issues if they are trying to maximize DPS by clipping force lightning/tkt or keeping DOTs up on more than 1 mob or even just trying to use static barrier as a crappy DCD. Healing really is not very viable. In short, off-healing is great on paper, but does not really work very well in practice in NiM PvE progression.

With respect to an Execute, yes, it would be very nice, particularly in Balance/Madness. However, I'm not sure this would be a great question at this time. Bioware recently acknowledged that Balance/Madness needs a bit of a dps boost (particularly in PvE). There was an entire thread requesting suggestions on how/where to increase that dps. Numerous suggestions were made, including giving an execute. My recollection is that Bioware's last comment was that they were still looking at how to resolve the problem and the fix would likely be some combination of Sever Force and Force Lightning, that wasn't a final determination. Since Bioware has already acknowledged that Balance/Madness DPS needs some tweaking and has indicated that they are looking at it, asking a question on this same topic is unlikely to get us any further information/action than is already being contemplated.

Not really happy with the wording of these suggested additions, but wanted to throw it out there. Survivability The developers stated in the Sorcerer answers that healing is intended to make up a significant part of Sage survivability and the suggestion of providing defensive cooldowns besides Force Mend and Force Barrier were rejected outright. The community believes that Sage survivability suffers from a number of inherent problems with its defensive tools. In order to use Force Armor or Force Mend on yourself, you need to use a global cooldown. And in the case of Force Armor use 5%-10% of your resources. That's simply an unacceptable trade off in most PvE situations. For example in Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where a raid member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire raid. In many of these cases, Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is mitigated by armor and Sages have the worst armor. This has caused many in the community to speculate that Sages are intended to be a "glass cannon," frail but able to pack a punch. Sages, however, don't have the inverse advantage in damage to survival that one would expect if that was the case. Nor do Sages have sufficiently desired utility (the utility of off-healing previously suggested is not very viable in NiM progression due to the lost dps considering tight enrage timers, pushback suffered by dps specced Sages in healing and the lack of resources, particularly for Balance) to overcome the increased damage they take. Many spirited discussions have issued debating this question of the theory of Sage survivability and we invite the developers to take part. The actual question Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in all play environments? What is your philosophy towards the Sage class and its defenses? Are there any plans to improve the class's current survival tools? For example, by perhaps by providing a means with which to move our tools (Force Armor, Force Mend, etc.) off the GCD when cast on yourself? If not, are there any plans to increase the viable utility Sages bring to NiM PvE OPs in light of the increased damage taken to compensate for the disadvantages of taking more damage in such content?

Sorry, haven't been focused on this question. I'm still not sure this is the best use of a question, but if there is nothing else pressing of concern it may be fine. Assuming 2.7 goes live next week (as planned), we may want to reevalute this question (or any of them) based upon how things look after it is live. We will luckily have a couple weeks of time with it live to evaluate the changes in their final form before the questions are due.

Unless I've missed it, I don't believe Bioware has every said that Sages/Sorcs are supposed to take more damage or be the glass cannon. That is an assumption many people are making about what Bioware's position is. It very well may be Bioware's position, but we shouldn't assume that is the case. While I think the first question can be added to with some of the suggestions regarding allowing self-heal or bringing group utility without hurting dps, I don't think we should remove the current questions about simply increasing our survivability. As for group composition, survivability/utility does come into play when looking at NiM content. Keyboardninja's discussion misses the point. Assuming you have equally skilled/geared options for a slot, there is little incentive to take a sage/sorc over other options. Sages/Sorcs don't provide more dps than other various options, their utility (healing) is not really viable at this point and their survivability is among the worst in the game. Recent discussions suggest that they are even looking to give Snipers/Gunslingers more survivability which will put Sages/Sorcs further back in line for desired classes. Sure a Sage/Sorc can fill a spot, but the question is whether other options can do so better (whether that is more dps, more utility or simply more survivability thereby stressing healers less). Given fight design and the huge amount of damage going out at times, survivability becomes a factor unless the class brings something that is needed. We don't know how it will go live, but look at the current final part of Brontes and the amount of damage going out in that phase. Look at some of the reports posted about "ideal" group composition. What you see is the need for DCDs/raid cooldowns. "Given the nature of the final phase the fight heavily favors Marauders and Snipers to a huge degree in part due to the exclusive and powerful raid cooldowns they provide. I would love to try and tackle the fight with Bloodthirst + some sniper shields though our available roster dictated we could only bring one Sniper OR one Marauder. With permanent predation, bloodthirst and two sniper shields the last phase will be infinitely more manageable since you can afford to push through so many more supremacy stacks before pushing the first tentacle. I'm sure the fight is possible in its current state but without supreme luck for over 2mins I doubt we can manage it with our current composition. " From Drop It Like It's Hoth feedback http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=732383&page=2. Perhaps increasing our utility would result in Sages/Sorcs being more desired, but my concern is that with current fight implementation Sages/Sorcs are not desired because we lack the DCDs/survivability and do not bring much to the OPs group to overcome that issue (dps isn't above others to justify the risks and utility (healing) is not generally viable in these situations). I'm not saying Sages/Sorcs cannot be part of a progression group. However, given the current NiM OPs design and the current status of the Sage/Sorc, bringing one over other classes/specs is being viewed as a less desirable, in part because of the survivability issue. I'm fine giving Bioware the option to address this with either (i) increased survivability or (ii) better utility to make Sages/Sorcs more desired despite the lower survivability, but I think it's best if the questions are framed to give them the option on how to address this rather than only giving them one of those options. I believe it is an issue that needs to be addressed in this set of questions. We should not wait until Sages/Sorcs are wholly unviable in progression PvE before making sure Bioware is aware of the concern.

This isn't a single fight, single spike damage issue. Nor is it an issue of only spike damage. As has been discussed on numerous threads/posts, almost every boss fight in Nightmare has either (i) significant damage to a randomly targeted OPs member or (ii) AOE/raid-wide damage to the entire raid. In many cases, fights have both. Particularly troublesome is that often the AOE/raid-wide damage is during burn phases. Sages/Sorcs have no way to minimize this damage (or even recover from without stopping dps). Every other class can reduce this damage thereby increasing their survivability. If need be, I can go find some of the older posts that lay out all of these situations in TFB/S&V and add in the DF (at least with current boss abilities), but one or both exist on pretty much every fight. In some cases, the issue is exacerbated by the fact that Sages/Sorcs have lower armor and therefore take more damage to begin with. In others its simply the fact that other classes can mitigate a portion of the damage with a DCD while a Sage/Sorc cannot without stopping dps. The simple issue is that Sages/Sorcs take more damage on fights than other classes. In progression PvE settings, where enrage timers/survival are critical, that issue has not been addressed by Bioware (H2F is not a solution). If a sage/sorc takes more damage but doesn't offer more damage/utility to an OP, there is little reason to bring a sage/sorc over other classes. Why stress the OP/rely on RNG when going for world/server firsts when other classes can offer the same dps with higher survival. I'm fine with tweaking the question (my original draft was very focused on PvE, because that is where my prime concern on survivability lies and because I believe they responded previously, like it or not, on the PvP side). However, I believe the question as currently posed will force Bioware to at least respond to the concern in the PvE context because the question specifically discusses PvE b/c that is the part of the issue that Bioware has not yet addressed.

I've mentioned it before, but it probably bears repeating. Survivability in PvE is a current issue. The previous answers regarding the issue appear to be focused on a PvP aspect of the game because the response does not work in progression PvE. So long as Sages/Sorcs take extra damage from attacks in PvE (due to lower armor) and have no way to mitigate the damage, they are at risk of being less desired than any other dps class for progression content. We were back in NiM DF working on Brontes yesterday and both myself and our sage healer were taking somewhere around 46-50k damage from Kephess' dread bomb (each time getting hit twice for around 23-25k). (We are aware that some have reported this as a bug, but in each case, only 1 person was in the circle to get hit, the target of the attack.) Force Barrier can let you survive one, but not more if you are targetted more than once. Our sniper and marauder on the other hand could survive every single one easily using their DCDs. There are other things that result in Sages/Sorcs taking more damage than other dps classes. Either we stop dpsing (use GCDs ourselves) or require additional attention from healers to keep us alive. None of this currently means we can't be part of the group, but it does put as at significant risk of being much less desired than other equally geared/skilled players of other classes for such content. When a group is working toward world/server firsts, relying on RNG or putting extra stress on healers or increasing the odds of hitting an enrage timer is less than ideal. So maybe the question is a little bit of a repeat, but is so we never got a real answer to the question. Based on more recent discussions with Bioware, I believe if the question is properly framed to emphasize PvE concerns (as the current draft does), Bioware will explain their thinking on this. I don't believe they want another H2F, LOS, Make them Pay reaction. I would note that some, but not all, of these concerns can also be addressed at least in part by designing boss fights differently. For examply if they stop using as many attacks that are impacted by armor, at least the initial difference in damage taken (before DCDs) would be eliminated/minimized. Having some of these attacks do a fixed percentage of total health would also be an option. Whether it gets Bioware to think about what Sages/Sorcs need themselves or gets them to think about OP fight design, I believe the question is important for PvE. Retsigam - hmd Magenta - The Shadowlands

I suggest the following changes (changes in bold): In order to use Force Armor or Force Mend on yourself, you need to use a global cooldown (and in the case of Force Armor use resources). Force Barrier requires the Sage to stop performing their job to use. Those are not requirements other classes face to mitigate incoming damage and is simply an unacceptable trade off in most PvE situations. In Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where a raid member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire raid. In many of these cases, Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is mitigated by armor and Sages have the worst armor. Retsigam - hmd Magenta - The Shadowlands

I am primarily focused on world-progression PvE though I do a fair amount of PvP. I've posted more extensively before on this, but I do believe that the lack of a real defensive cool down is likely the biggest issue for dps sages/sorcs going forward in PvE. Recent discussions appear to be addressing some, though not all of the QOL issues and may also result in some tweaks to damage to bring us in line with other classes/specs. I don't think focusing more questions on those will help at this point. We are the only dps class that has zero ability to mitigate or reduce damage without either using a GCD (to cast static barrier or unnatural preservation) thereby reducing our DPS or taking us out of the fight entirely (force barrier). Due to the light armor sages/sorcs wear, we already take larger amounts of damage from the random targeted attacks and/or AOE damage (which often occurs during burn phases). Historically, in NiM Operations, with the tight enrage timers, any lost dps is a potential problem. Additionally, in TFB and S&V there were a number of mechanics which resulting in Sages/Sorcs taking more damage than other classes, raising the question of why bring a sage/sorc when you could bring an equally skilled/geared sniper (or other class). Having been on the PTS, some of these same concerns remain. Although the current tuning does not create as high of a risk as some of the fights in TFB/S&V of a sage/sorc going splat from random/aoe damage that was extremely high, we do not know what the final numbers are. We also see that (absent bugging the fight), the final phase of Brontes is a very high raid damage phase that is basically a dps race. Lack of any way to mitigate damage through an off the GCD cooldown may make sages/sorcs less desirable. So long as sages/sorcs lack a true DCD, that will remain a risk on certain fights where others able to better mitigate while DPSing are simply better options. Many ideas have been thrown out about how to at least put a band-aid on this, but we should try to get Bioware to explain their thinking on this Something along the lines of: "Many NiM Operation fights involve damage that is often targeted at a random raid member and/or a raid wide AOE damage (often during a burn phase of the fight). In many cases, the damage is mitigated based upon the armor of the target. In such cases, sages/sorcs take more damage than other raid members. Moreover, every other dps class has one or more DCDs which can reduce the damage taken. In order to mitigate or avoid this damage, sorcs/sages need to stop dpsing to either use static barrier (which also causes force management issue) or use force barrier (which basically stops the sage/sorc from dpsing). Other classes do not need to cut their dps to reduce damage taken. Because NiM Operation fights involve tight enrage timers, losing dps can put an operation group with a sage/sorc dps at a disadvantage. Because of those enrage timers, stopping dps to heal (which also can create force issues and can be very difficult in AOE damage situations with cast pushback) is also a disadvantage compared to taking a class that simply takes significantly less damage. What is Bioware's view on why the sage/sorc, who wears light armor and therefore takes more damage from certain types of attacks than most other classes, have no off-the-GCD defensive cooldowns? With current fight design, is Bioware concerned that dps Sages/Sorcs will become less desired compared to other classes who can put out the same or better dps while taking less damage (assuming equal skill and gear level)?" Importantly, questions aren't due until the beginning May, so we will see NiM DF live before that deadline and may even see NiM DP and may be able to refine this. Edit: If you want to add a question about lightsabers, I would add it as a 4th "bonus" question. I don't think visuals are something that should be the focus of the 3 questions. Something like, "Does Bioware have any plans to let Sags/Sorcs actually use their lightsabers?" If they answer it, great. If not, we remain where we are, with a stat-stick. Retsigam - hmd Magenta - The Shadowlands

From a progression/NiM Operation PvE perspective, Sorcs need a real defensive cooldown. Barring some change in the way Bioware designs these encounters, there is a lot of unavoidable damage. Egress/Fadeout is not useful in these cases. There are two types of unavoidable damage that we saw frequently (and presumably will see more of), (i) AOE damage to the whole raid (think Titan VI, lots of missiles and final phase, in S&V or Kephess in TFB) and (ii) damage targetted at a specific, but random, operation member (think Kephess' jump in TFB, Thrasher's snipe's). Those are by no means complete lists. In many cases, due to the nature of the damage, Sorcs/Sages take more damage from these attacks than most other classes simply because light armor mitigates less to begin with. I want to be clear that I am not focused on the multiple sources of damage that can be avoided, but only the numerous sources that cannot be avoided, only mitigated. Nightmare Operations typically have very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. While every other DPS class has one or more defensive cooldown that (i) is off the Global Cooldown, (ii) cuts the damage they take and (iii) doesn't require them to stop performing their job (damaging the boss). Sorcs/Sages lack any such cooldown. Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation does not provide any protection to damage incoming. While it can be useful for recovery, it is on the GCD (meaning some DPS loss) and it requires survival in the first place. Force Armor/Static Barrier can mitigate some damage. But it is also on the GCD resulting in lost DPS and at least for Madness/Balance, can create force management issues. Moreover, a DPS Sorc/Sage's bubble is often inferior in terms of damage absorbed to that of a healing specced Sorc/Sage; it is often not ideal for the dps Sorc/Sage to use their own Force Armor/Static Barrier when the healer's is better. Force Barrier is also not an acceptable defensive cooldown in PvE progression with tight enrage timers. Force Barrier essentially prevents the Sorc/Sage from doing their job (dealing damage). That lost DPS could mean hitting a hard enrage or prolonging a final burn phase that is effectively a race to beat the boss before the healers can't keep up. It is also not up anywhere near as often as the cooldowns of most other dps classes. Sorcs/Sages need a real defensive cooldown that lets them keep performing their job in PvE progression. Otherwise they are at risk of not being desired when compared to other classes (such as Gunslingers/Snipers who are getting a fairly large buff to some of their defensive cooldowns) in PvE progression who will take less damage and have a better chance of surviving while continuing to perform their job. Retsigam (hmd Magenta - The Shadowlands)

Posted this in the Sorc Thread, but thought I'd post here too: These changes definitely look interesting and it will be interesting to see their implementation on the PTS. I have some concerns, particularly regarding Madness/Balance force management becoming an issue with some of these changes, but I'm willing to see how it is implemented. However, these changes do not address the biggest issue DPS Sorcs/Sages face in PvE progression. DPS Sorcs/Sages have no real defensive cooldown. In Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where a raid member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire raid. In many of these cases, Sorcs/Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is mitigated by armor and Sorcs/Sages have the worst armor. On top of that, every other DPS class has one or more defensive cooldown that (i) is off the Global Cooldown, (ii) cuts the damage they take and (iii) doesn't require them to stop performing their job (damaging the boss). Sorcs/Sages lack any such cooldown. Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation does not provide any protection to damage incoming. While it can be useful for recovery, it is on the GCD (meaning some DPS loss) and it requires survival in the first place. Force Armor/Static Barrier can mitigate some damage. But it is also on the GCD resulting in lost DPS and at least for Madness/Balance, can create force management issues. Moreover, a DPS Sorc/Sage's bubble is often inferior in terms of damage absorbed to that of a healing specced Sorc/Sage; it is often not ideal for the dps Sorc/Sage to use their own Force Armor/Static Barrier when the healer's is better. Force Barrier is also not an acceptable defensive cooldown in PvE progression with tight enrage timers. Force Barrier essentially prevents the Sorc/Sage from doing their job (dealing damage). That lost DPS could mean hitting a hard enrage or prolonging a final burn phase that is effectively a race to beat the boss before the healers can't keep up. It is also not up anywhere near as often as the cooldowns of most other dps classes. Sorcs/Sages need a real defensive cooldown that lets them keep performing their job in PvE progression. Otherwise they are at risk of not being desired in compared to other classes (such as Gunslingers/Snipers who just got a big buff to one of their defensive cooldowns) in PvE progression who will take less damage and have a better chance of surviving while continuing to perform their job. Retsigam (hmd Magenta - The Shadowlands)

Same problem. She is available on my Marauder and I received the achievement for all Warrior Crew Members ("Warriors Unit"). However, she is not available to be unlocked on my Sorceror for Fleet Requisitions.

This is going to be focused primarily on PvE dps Sages/Sorcs as my main focus in the game is progression Ops groups. I do Operations on both a Sage and Sorc on The Shadowlands. I have also started gearing up an alt sniper and gunslinger in light of the deficiencies Sages/Sorcs have in endgame PvE compared to other classes. The primary issue right now is that there is very little reason to bring a Sage/Sorc as a dps over certain other classes. To fix this Sages/Sorcs need their dps adjusted to be competitive and some form of defensive cooldown that does not require them to stop performing their role (doing damage). When choosing classes for an operation, assuming equal gear and skill, 3 main things are considered: (i) the DPS the class can put out, (ii) the survivability of the class, and (iii) the utility that class brings. As it currently stands, discussed in great depth in numerous other threads, Sages/Sorcs are significantly behind other classes, such as gunslinger/sniper and sentinel/marauder in terms of the actual damage they can put out. Simply put, if enrage timers (whether hard enrages or soft-enrages) continue to exist, the highest dps classes will be preferred. Bringing a class that cannot compete on damage simply hurts the group’s chance of success. Sages/Sorcs also wear light armor (resulting in the lowest base damage reduction) and their only true defensive cooldown, Force Barrier, basically requires them to do nothing for the time it is active, resulting in their doing even less damage (and generally being unable to help the operation group). With respect to utility, Sages/Sorcs have Rescue (which is not used in many fights) and can in theory throw out heals. However, in light of the very tight dps checks in recent Nightmare content (which will likely also exist in upcoming Nightmare content), stopping dps to cast heals (using precious seconds and resources) is not really viable. Compare that utility to the utility brought by other classes, for example Snipers bring Shatter Shot and Ballistic Shield (along with cover pulse and leg shot which were very useful on Nightmare Styrak) and it seems like Sages/Sorcs offer a bit less utility on top of their already lower DPS and survivability. However, this is probably less of an urgent issue that needs to be resolved. In order for Sages/Sorcs to be competitive for dps slots in operations, their damage needs to be increased to be on par with that of other classes. This isn’t just about Sages/Sorcs. The Devs should go back and adjust all classes to bring them in line with each other on a damage level. This would require adjusting the amount of damage certain abilities do. With respect to survivability, as discussed in numerous other threads, many operation fights have either significant operation-wide damage going out to the entire group for periods of time or random operation members taking significant damage. Sages/Sorcs are the only class that lack a true defensive cooldown to help them survive and reduce the healing load. Sages/Sorcs can only (i) force barrier and do nothing or (ii) stop doing their job, spend resources and try to heal (which is often not very effective with the pushback suffered on heals for the small amount they heal for). Sages/Sorcs need an off the global survival cooldown. It could be something fairly simple: something along the lines of 45 second cooldown, for 6 seconds take 40% less damage. Alternatively to make it a little more unique: 45 second cooldown, for 6 seconds take 20% less damage and the sage/sorc is healed for an amount equal to the damage done during the 6 seconds (or healed for 5% of their health every second for 6 seconds). Another option would be to implement a “healer stance” and a “dps stance.” For the “dps stance” it might do something along the lines of (i) X% more damage done, (ii) take 5% less damage, (iii) Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation is off the cooldown, (iv) heals cast on others do X% less healing. The biggest problems facing dps Sages/Sorcs in operations right now is that they lag behind other classes on dps and they lack the survivability that other classes have. They don’t bring enough utility to an operation to make up for those deficiencies. As a result, the question is why bring a Sage/Sorc when you can simply bring another class (such as a Sniper/Gunslinger). Unless their dps and survivability is fixed before new nightmare content is released, that question may result in even fewer Sages/Sorcs in progression content.

Joveth Gonzalez

This will be my last response to you since you have now confirmed that you are simply trolling and have no clue about sorcs/sages and their involvement in current Nightmare Operations. What has been established: 1) As previously asserted, Sorcs/Sages take more damage from many boss abilities that are randomly targeted or cause AOE damage to the raid. Your last post confirms that they take considerably more damage that Marauders/Sentinels. In prior threads, many people, including myself, have pointed out the various fights and abilities where this is a problem. I do NiM Operations every week and everyone in our OPs can see that myself (dps sorc) and our healing sorc take significantly more damage. Anyone who is in such an Operation (or watches a video) and isn’t ½ blind can see the difference. 2) Your analysis of the parses regarding damage taking contains so many errors it simply proves that you have know nothing about sages and Nightmare Operations. You purport to be an expert at investigation outside the game. I hope you are better at that job than you are at your “job” to investigate what Sorcs/Sages know about their class. a) As previously indicated, I was in full 72s upon entering NiM TFB. Full Underworld (earpiece was off-set). That was fully min-maxed except for the earpiece. I had slightly over 34k health. The fact that you think this is “an extremely large health pool” is very telling about your complete lack of knowledge about Sorcs/Sages. b) Mr. Professional investigator, did you happen to notice that this was from a different log with a different person. Magister is not Mirin. He was not quite full 72s so he had a little less health. Also, Magister is not Coursingriver. Different spec/role results in a different shield amount. Amazing that a professional investigator would miss these simple items. Interestingly, you were also unable to find any such logs, yet we were able to find a number of different logs relatively quickly. Must be hard for such a professional investigator to find the guilds that are clearing NiM content and look at their logs. c) You seem puzzled by the fact that a Marauder took less damage from the attack than a Sorc/Sage. Perhaps you need to go back and learn about the other differences between the classes that account for this. Hint some of those differences have been mentioned in numerous threads. d) In reference to Ryz’s 36k health pool you state that it is a “staggeringly large health pool.” Once again you show that you know nothing about this class. I also have 36k health because I am in mostly 75s (yes proper mods/enhancements). You clearly know nothing about the class at Nightmare levels. One last item. According to you, Sorc DPS “on boss” is on par or exceeding that of Sentinels/Marauders and Gunslinger/Sniper. Let me think for a second about which current Nightmare bosses involve ONLY “on boss” dps. Oh that’s right, there are none. Every single fight requires some dps on adds or shields or something else. Some fights require more, some less, but all require dps on something other than the boss to defeat it. All DPS on a boss fight matters, so ignoring significant parts of dps requirements to claim a class is fine are simply inaccurate. It is quite apparent that you are simply a troll who does not know anything about Sorcs/Sages in current Nightmare Operations.

Still waiting for you to get your head out of the sand and open your eyes. . .

I don't have the link handy at this time. You are welcome to find it on torparse. You can also try to find logs by Mirin and/or Straye. You can sit here and pretend that sages/sorcs don't take more damage than others, but you are simply wrong. Just to be clear, this is a problem on many fights with randomly targetted damage and AOEs: Sages/Sorcs take more damage.

None of this appears to address the major problem in PvE that Sages/Sorcs take significantly more damage from randomly targeted attacks and/or AOE damage because they have light armor and no defensive cooldowns (except for force barrier that removes the sorc/sage from performing their role for the duration).

I have mentioned in many prior posts that this is a real problem. When we first did Kephess, I was in full 72s and could barely survive (couple hundred health). One of our other sages that still had 2 pieces that weren't 72s did die. I don't have their logs, but I was able to find this (again, this was when we were learning the fight and we figured out having a healer bubble would offer a little more leeway than using my own - which is what the Devs seem to be suggesting is part of our Defensive CDs): 23:24:36.774 Kephess the Undying's Dread Bomb hits Magister for 39633 kinetic damage, causing 39633 threat. (5311 absorbed) No other class faces the same type of close call or potential one-shot from this than a Sage/Sorc.

8 man Cartel Warlords 2790.06 -- Retsigam -- hmd Magenta -- Madness 5/5/36 http://www.torparse.com/a/389898/20/0/Overview

First, the lack of defensive cooldowns was mentioned numerous times in the original thread as an issue in PvP and PvE. Second, the difference in damage taken is significant (at least 15-20% different). Your prior post indicates that you haven't had problems or noticed. In SM and HM it really doesn't matter much, the damage taken in general is so low it just doesn't matter if one class takes a little more. In NIM it makes a huge difference. We are the only class that is at significant risk of being 1-shot (or very close to it) by many random mechanics. First time in NIM TFB on Kephess, I was able to survive his random jump with only a couple hundred health in full Underworld (with my own bubble). Our other sage (was on pub side for this run) who still had 2 pieces of 69 gear could not survive without a healer bubble (he barely lacked the health with his own bubble). Every other class would come away with a significant amount of health remaining. We have to assume there will be similar attacks in future OPs. Either they need to give us a defensive cooldown that allows us to continue doing our job, they need to rework armor or they need to rework randomly targetted abilities to hit all classes equally. The problem is that if they do either of the latter options, we are still the worst because other classes can still mitigate the damage whereas we would not be able to. The only real option is a cooldown. Magister (sage)//Retsigam (Sorc). The Shadowlands.

Overall the rewritten question looks good. From a PvE perspective, I think the following paragraph from Nibbon's post captures the importance of what we need from a defensive cooldown which we are currently lacking. I would add something along these lines to the question/explanation: "During mechanics that are predictable and do raid wide damage (Titan 6 soft enrage, Thrasher pounding, Dash'round pound and sandstorm damage, Operations chief probes, Styrak's second kell dragon, DG lightning, Kephess soft enrage) we are usually left with the least amount of health afterwards. During these intense periods, we are again left healing ourselves instead of damaging the boss so we can stay alive. The most negative part about this is nightmare raids have been brought to a level where enrage timers - putting out an appropriate amount of DPS - is most critical to success. A defensive cooldown would allow us the same advantages as all the other DPS classes in allowing us to continue doing our jobs, instead of worrying about our health, and would make us a higher contributing member (and closer to even) during a raid." Magister (sage)//Retsigam (sorc). The Shadowlands.

Focusing solely on this question (my thoughts are more fully set forth in the other thread on major problems): 1) Static Barrier is not a real defensive cooldown. First, it is not off the GCD, like a real defensive cooldown. More importantly, a Sorcs ability to use Static Barrier is not completely in their control. If there is a healing sorc in the group, they may have put a bubble on at a prior point locking the sorc out from using Static Barrier as a defensive cooldown. No other class faces this issue with their defensive cooldowns. It also requires the sorc to spend resources to use (which other defensive cooldowns don't require. 2) Force Barrier, the only real defensive cooldown prevents the sorc from performing their role for the duration. No other defensive cooldown forces a healer to stop healing or a dps to stop dpsing. In PvE this is a huge problem since it means that it often cannot be used as easily as other defensive cooldowns during burn phases and other parts of the fight because dps/enrage is an issue and for healers a lack of heals will result in deaths. We need a cooldown that does not prevent us from performing our role. Additionally, due to the aggro drop associated with Force Barrier, using it as a cooldown for certain boss abilities can cause problems if used 1/2 a second too early (the boss will target someone else). No other defensive cooldown has that issue. Magister (sage)/Restigam (sorc), The Shadowlands.

For background, I am primarily focused on PvE. I do a fair amount of regular PvP but almost no ranked PvP. I run both a dps Sage and dps Sorc in Nightmare content and have completed the timed run for NiM TFB and am currently 5/7 in NIM S&V. I primarily play Balance/Madness. With that background, my concerns are primarily focused on PvE, though they also have impact on PvP. 1) Are the Developers satisfied with the survivability of the Sorc? Concerns: Sorcs have light armor. A number of Operation Bosses have mechanics where either the entire Operation or random members take damage. Many of those attacks are reduced by armor (ex. Kephess’s dreadbomb attack, Titan 6’s lots of missiles, Thrasher’s snipers). The difference in damage taken by Sorc compared to other dps or healers can be fairly drastic. We have seen many sages that were short 1 or 2 pieces of 72 gear get 1-shot by Kephess simply because they barely lacked the health to survive. Other classes don't fact that problem due to higher armor. Other classes take less damage and have multiple defensive cooldowns that can cut down a percentage of the damage taken thereby increasing their survivability to those mechanics. A significant number of Operation Bosses also have a final burn phase where the boss starts putting out periodic damage to everyone in the operation. It becomes a matter of whether the Operation can kill the boss before the damage becomes too much for the healers to keep people alive. Unlike other classes that have defensive cooldowns that can mitigate some of this damage prolonging the time within which to get heals before dying a sorc does not have such an option. The only defensive cooldown a Sorc has is the immunity bubble. While the bubble is 100% immunity it comes with a number of drawbacks. First, unlike every other defensive cooldown in the game, while the bubble is up, a sorc cannot continue to dps the boss. For example, in burn phases at the end, it often comes down to a choice to either use the immunity bubble to live but be unable to help your group until you are healed enough or continue to help the group while hoping that the healers can keep you up. Other classes can use a defensive cooldown to reduce incoming damage, giving healers a chance to heal them, while they continue to dps. Second, to protect from certain attacks, the bubble requires more precise timing than other defensive cooldowns which simply mitigate some of the damage. For example, on Kephess, if he has targeted a sorc for his leap and dreadbomb, if the immunity bubble is used to early, he will change targets, too late and he will do damage. Finally, the immunity bubble is on a very long (3 minute cooldown). There is no guaranty it will be up when needed given the frequency and randomness of these abilities. The Self-heal and force bubble are not real defensive cooldowns. They require a global cooldown to use (unlike real defensive cooldowns). Additionally, the force bubble may or may not be able to be cast if one was recently used by a healer. 2) Are the Developers satisfied with the burst of the Sorc? A number of Operation bosses have either short burn phases throughout the fight (ex. Styrak) or burn phases at the end (ex. Writhing Horror, Kephess, Titan VI). Madness sorcs have no execute and very limited ability to provide any burst dps. Importantly, when dealing with very short burn phases (ex. Dreadguard’s phase 1 – burn Ciphas’ shield), the need to apply dots and/or lost dot damage create further problems with Madness Sorcs being able to contribute to those burn phases. Many other classes have an execute and/or the ability to increase their damage for a short period of time. Sorcs really don’t. Other concerns (discussed by others and I feel less of a concern going forward): 1) Force Regen is a concern on longer fights, particularly those with multiple adds/bosses that must be dpsed at the same time, such as the aforementioned burn phase where something other than the main boss has to be burned down. 2) Better in-game dot tracking. It would be nice to be able to customize the UI to track dots as well as easily see procs that are on the buff bar. Retsigam (Sorc) Magister (Sage) The Shadowlands