Layotees
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Posts posted by Layotees
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Make sure your Jugg's aren't interceding to try to lower the damage they take, that will also cause a threat drop that makes the lightning balls change targets.
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Atleast Panda's won't be bugged
It's almost as if you've never raided a WoW instance in it's first few months.
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You'd be right... that would be unbalanced...
That is you would be right if all three of the jets didn't apply all three of the debuffs at the same time on normal. On hard and nightmare, you get only half the uptime of "Takes 200% additional damage" debuff that you get on normal, not to mention that the jets also suck in all the nearby mines on normal when you activate the consoles which does significant damage to the boss in and of themselves. You don't even have the time to use that move at all on the hardmode and nightmare versions of the fight.
There is more going on in that fight than health pool levels.
This is wrong. All the vents do on normal mode is apply the double damage debuff to the boss and reset his defense stacks. They do not have any of the effects of the left or middle vents on hard mode.
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Movement speed bonuses don't stack, so you probably aren't noticing it because you're testing it out of combat with sprint up.
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As a general rule of thumb, if it takes a boss more than 5 seconds to kill you from full health, you should never choose health over another stat in PvE.
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No...they would be very hard to kill. Which is what a tank is supposed to be as opposed to what they are now which is something that takes slightly longer to bring down than the DPS variant of their particular AC.
And to get to be that hard to kill you'd have to give up your DPS. Fair trade-off to me.
If you find yourself easy to kill in pvp you're either undergeared or just plain doing it wrong.
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What we really need is a talent near the top of the Immortal tree that makes Sweeping Strikes hit in a full circle.
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I still how our shield and damage mitigation don't work properly in PVP.
Mix that with a surge nerf, and Rage Juggernauts become more weak.
They work exactly how they're supposed to; only on basic weapon attacks. If you could deflect and shield special attacks tanks in tank gear would be nigh unkillable.
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You do know there is no surge on armorings, and thus it's all replaceable with mods, right?
You do know surge without crit is one of the least valuable stats possible, right?
You do know the people with crit, IE: DPS, are the ones who are going to be effected by this, right?
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Disclaimer: Some of the decimals in this have been rounded, numbers to the nearest integer, percentages to the nearest tenth.
Timeline of the video is down at the bottom. I do advise you watch the video in an HD format so you can read my health bar.
Scrolling Combat Text does not display drops in health from attacks that break Sonic Barrier.
Mahlus Scream: 1069 to 1133 + 58.8% = 1698 to 1799
Naked test: 0% mitigation, 1748 median, range 101 1698 to 1799
2826 - 1755 = 1071 health lost = 630 to 731 absorbed
2626 - 1554 = 1072 health lost = 629 to 730 absorbed
2999 - 1928 = 1071 health lost = 630 to 731 absorbed
Average range: 630 to 731
Analysis: Assuming the value of Sonic Barrier is constant and not a range,
All three screams hit for about the same amount. This data is not conclusive,
additional testing is necessary to get a more exact value for sonic barrier's absorb.
Armor no set bonus test: 21.81% mitigation, 1369 median, range 78 1330 to 1408
15540 - 14931 = 609 health lost = 721 to 799 absorbed
13323 - 12667 = 656 health lost = 674 to 752 absorbed
11236 - 10561 = 675 health lost = 655 to 733 absorbed
Average Absorb Range: 683 to 735
Analysis: Damage taken range is 65, very close to the damage dealable range of 78.
If Sonic Barrier is indeed a constant and not a range, it most likely absorbs close to 705
within this scenario. Inconclusive data in the naked test makes it difficult to determine
if Sonic Barrier scales with gear, but can conclude that if it does, it scales VERY slowly.
Armor set bonus test: 30.26% mitigation, 1219 median, range 70 1184 to 1254
17501 - 17145 = 356 health lost = 828 to 898 absorbed
15018 - 14681 = 337 health lost = 847 to 917 absorbed
12997 - 12624 = 373 health lost = 811 to 881 absorbed
Average Absorb Range: 828 to 898
Analysis: Damage taken range is 36, half of the damage dealable range, making this less
precise than the previous test for finding the value of Sonic Barrier. However, the average
is a solid 145 to 163 points higher than the test without the set bonus. 705 x 1.2 = 846
backs up the conclusion that Sonic Barrier absorbs somewhere around 705 without the set bonus,
and somewhere around 845 with the set bonus (when in most of gear).
Video Timeline:
Start to 1:00: I display my stats during the naked test and Mahlus' stats for all of the tests.
1:05 to 1:22: Mahlus hits me with a Force Scream with Execute up. This is to show that we were aware that the ability could throw off our numbers,
and that we were accounting for it and having him click it off should it proc in future tests. His buff bar is visible for all of the test screams.
1:23 to 2:05: 3 Force Screams without Sonic Barrier up during the naked test.
2:05 to 2:50: 3 Force Screams with Sonic Barrier up during the naked test. The numbers for these screams are listed above.
2:58 to 3:05: Displaying stats for the gear with no set bonus test.
3:05 to 3:55: 3 Force Screams without Sonic Barrier up during the gear with no set bonus test.
4:00 to 5:05: 3 Force Screams with Sonic Barrier up during the gear with no set bonus test. Numbers above.
5:15 to 5:22: Displaying stats for the gear with set bonus test.
5:23 to 6:00: 3 Force Screams without Sonic Barrier up during the gear with set bonus test.
6:00 to end: 3 Force Screams with Sonic Barrier up during the gear with set bonus test. Numbers above.
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I can't say I've experienced anything of this nature since the last week of December / first week of January. My server, Prophecy of the Five, has had a very active hard mode and normal op pugging community for at least the last month. It generally takes me at most 15 minutes to find a hard mode group for whatever roll I wish to play, be it ranged DPS or heals on my sorc; or tank / melee DPS on my Juggernaut.
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I've finished gathering video of testing with an ability with a guaranteed crit, and a damage range of 102 after surge is factored.
We were using a Carnage Marauder using the guaranteed crit force screams, as it's a special attack and cannot be deflected. He did not have Sever to keep the damage range as small as possible, and the video shows his buffs so you can see we were clicking off Execute before he Screamed so it wouldn't further increase his damage.
We tested his damage totals on me while I was naked, in most of my gear but without the set bonus that effects sonic barrier, and finally in all of my gear except my matrix cube, so I did have the set bonus that effects sonic barrier. We tested the damage range both with and without sonic barrier up in each level of gear.
I'll be putting the video together after my op, and it should be done sometime tomorrow. Some preview information about what is in the video:
-Sonic Barrier is not percentage based. It absorbs the same amount of damage in the naked test and the most gear no set bonus test, or as close to the same amount as can be assumed in a damage range less than or equal to 100.
-Sonic Barrier absorbs roughly 700 damage without the set bonus, and roughly 850 with it.
-Sonic Barrier does not absorb for more than 1000 in any tested scenario.
-The naked tests are done with a 0% kinetic damage mitigation, with a calculated damage range of 103.
-The mostly geared test is done with 21.81% kinetic damage mitigation, closing the damage range to 84.5
-The fully geared test is done with 30.26% kinetic damage mitigation, closing the damage range to 79.
-In all of the tests the Marauder only has his weapons equipped, the damage level of Force Scream is 1069-1133 kinetic, with a 58.8% multiplier. This put his damage with force scream crits against me at 1748 + or - 51.5 before armor.
-You can see the scrolling combat text for all of his screams without the barriers, and we paused a couple seconds before the screams with sonic barrier so you can compare my health before and after his screams.
I'd also like to point out I did these tests a month ago without this level of documentation, and my rough estimates were in the same areas this information is now. When this video comes out and proves you wrong, please don't try to say that they stealth nerfed the ability and you were totally right.
I'll be posting this on the Sithwarrior.com forums as well when it is finished.
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You act like Elobi isn't tanking with a Jug in NM and didn't test the data. The only thing I can assume is that you're a complete troll, which means you won since I didn't figure it out until now.
Regardless I will retest Sonic Barrier and provide complete details AGAIN using a good testing methodology.
Since you're so blinded by idol worship that you wont see the proof that Elobi used the wrong numbers for his theorycraft when I put it right in your face, when I get home from work I'll be FRAPSing a video of some more tests showing Sonic Barrier absorbing for less than 1k, both in no gear and in Rakata Gear (Which I got -wait for it- Tanking Nightmare Modes.)
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Considering guard splits damage 50/50 in pvp I really don't understand how this is even a question.
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Title says it all. Shatter has a 9sec cd but a 12sec dot: do I use Shatter every cd and clip the dot or let it run?
Realistically it might be worth waiting if you can get a boss below 75% armor, so in a 16 man, but otherwise it's always worth using immediately because the up front effect is also internal damage.
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What you smoking? I don't know how you can mistake the direct quote from Elobi's work:
Given that this came from the analysis on Jug skills and no other class I can't imagine how you can begin to make such a ludicrous claim.
This specifically, on page 9: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=9
StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are referring to the values in another table called cbtStandardHealingInfo. (If this was a damage ability, they would be referring to values in cbtStandardDamageInfo).In that table, you will find a several sub-tables of numbers, for various "toughnesses" (weak, normal, strong, etc). If you scroll down about halfway through that table, you'll find a sub-table with the heading "cbtToughness_player".
Then there is a list of numbers from 1-50, which is the level at which you last trained a rank of the ability (for trained abilities) or the rank at which the ability becomes available (for skill tree abilities). Since Blade Barrier is the latter, and becomes available at Level 30, the corresponding number is 3670.
So the ability absorbs 367 damage.
Like a few abilities, Static Barrier is listed under a different (earlier?) name in the data files, and is called "Backlash". For Backlash, you will see StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are 0.164, and the HealingPowerCoefficient is 3.27. Since the last rank of Static Barrier is trainable at Level 50, the corresponding number from the cbtStandardHealing table is 7085.
That means StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus (at Level 50).
Is the ORIGINAL datamining and math that Elobi reposted in that Juggernaut tanking thread. Note what ability this poster is talking about. It's Static Barrier.
Sonic Barrier is NOT the same. Talk down about me and my supposedly flawed testing, but the person you're quoting literally copy and pasted math for a completely different ability, something that should be painfully obvious for anyone who's done some actual testing in game.
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I've never said that getting data from the game files was authoritative but when that data matches testing done by numerous people (though I've never seen anyone get 2k in testing) it has a lot more credibility than some random person who doesn't seem to understand HOW to correctly test. I said to test, I said I would retest, and I provided information where others had gotten similar results. I even pointed out where and how you could get different results. One thing I didn't mention is that its very likely that the value of SB is based on health so one thing that anyone testing should report is their HP at the time they ran the test.
Read this thread: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=10
Elobi's post is pulled straight from information concerning Static Barrier.
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Also, the ability "Backlash" that is referenced in that datamined information does not refer to Sonic Barrier; it refers to the Sorcerer ability Static Barrier.
All of your numbers are based off another class' ability.
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Elobi also goes on to reference some datamined numbers to back up his math:
I never said that it absorbs 708,5 damage, where did you get those numbers from ?The numbers are datamined from the .TOR files.
StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are referring to the values in another table called cbtStandardHealingInfo. (If this was a damage ability, they would be referring to values in cbtStandardDamageInfo).
In that table, you will find a several sub-tables of numbers, for various "toughnesses" (weak, normal, strong, etc). If you scroll down about halfway through that table, you'll find a sub-table with the heading "cbtToughness_player".
Then there is a list of numbers from 1-50, which is the level at which you last trained a rank of the ability (for trained abilities) or the rank at which the ability becomes available (for skill tree abilities). Since Blade Barrier is the latter, and becomes available at Level 30, the corresponding number is 3670.
So the ability absorbs 367 damage.
Like a few abilities, Static Barrier is listed under a different (earlier?) name in the data files, and is called "Backlash". For Backlash, you will see StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are 0.164, and the HealingPowerCoefficient is 3.27. Since the last rank of Static Barrier is trainable at Level 50, the corresponding number from the cbtStandardHealing table is 7085.
That means StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus (at Level 50).
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This formula is true for all absorb mechanics
As can be seen here, he has the force healing ratio for sonic barrier listed at 3.27 on top of a base absorb of 1161.94. My force healing is at 178, meaning if these numbers were right, my sonic barriers would absorb 1743 damage without 4 piece War Leader.
If these numbers were right, I would not have taken damage from my merc friend's 1400 damage tracer missiles at all.
Datamined math is not word of God. Use the formulas yourself and see how right they are when compared to actual in game data.
Edit: However, other people in that thread have pointed out that people in the formula discussion thread have found that the actual data for sonic barrier would have the 7085 value recorded in the data actually refer to 708.5. 708.5 + 20% is MUCH closer to the actual real in game data that is being reflected by my tests than this mythical 2k Sonic Barrier that has only been theorycrafted.
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You obviously didn't read the thread. If you had you'd have seen Elobi's incredibly detailed analysis that's been posted on these forums multiple times:
My point on gear is that you're introducing variables when you shouldn't be. I tested WITHOUT gear for that reason and all you're doing is confusing the issue by adding in items that can and do cause issues. For example the threat degen for BHs is -.25 instead of the -25 all of the other classes get and since that's not a multiple its clearly a decimal entry error.
You might want to look at what thread you linked me to in your last post, bud. You also might want to actually look at Elobi's data and realize that it is all theorycraft without any basis in the actual game engine, let alone a listed patch in which it may have been conducted in game.
Elobi's data backs up me doing this in my gear, as it supports Force Power and Willpower increasing the strength of Sonic Barrier. Is Elobi's data a useable source or is it not?
I did the test with and without my offhand equipped, which is a drop of over 400 of my force power. If there was a difference in the strength of Sonic Barrier it was small enough to be confusable with the damage range of non crit Tracer Missiles.
Regardless, if you're actually seeing 1200 sonic barriers naked then the move is scaling backwards with gear, and it doesn't matter what it's base numbers are, because 400 more damage per shield is not going to convince me to fight a boss naked.
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The only way this is accurate is if they changed it in last two weeks. Its been tested extensively by lots of people over here:
http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Archive-Immortal-Juggernaut-SW-Defense-Guardian-JK-Compendium
I tested it in Smugglers Den and we used the Power Tech short range fire attack and the numbers were consistent (~1200 for a new level 50 with no set bonus armor at all). I will retest, but I'm inclined to think you have something you're not controlling for (like the debuff icon not matching when the debuff actually goes away). Using elemental or internal damage is the right idea to avoid having to figure out the base absorption affect, but I don't understand what this, "a complete set of best in slot gear is just under 900 damage." means. You don't need a complete set, the bonus for Sonic Barrier is 4 pieces and your mouse over will show whether you have enough or not. In any case I'd advise taking all of the set armor off completely so we don't have to account for those numbers either. (Its not inconceivable that a decimal place is off one or more of the sets and that's actually lowering the amount of the buff. The difference between a 1.25 modifier and .125 is huge.)
Bringing up my gear is just as relevant as you bringing up yours. People in this thread and in that thread have been tossing around theories as to what this shield scales with. It stands to reason that if it scales with anything that in my gear it will absorb more than yours will.
I tested with and without the set bonus. The set bonus is working fine; it adds 20%. My ~850 shields are much closer to 700.
Also, I have read that thread. Have you? There are no references to the exact damage Sonic Barrier absorbs other than someone pointing out that at level 40 it absorbs 5-600 damage on page 10.
Edit: THIS thread: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Immortal-Defense-Compendium-A-Tank-s-Guide-To-The-Galaxy Speaks of a definitive value for Sonic Barrier listed at roughly 1200. However, it was last changed over a month ago, and there's absolutely no reference to tests done to confirm those numbers.
I have tested these numbers today as well as two other times in the last three weeks and I can tell you it has not at any time absorbed more than 1000 damage for me, with or without sorc buffs for bonus willpower or 4 piece War Leader gear.
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Just adding another report confirming these bugs.
Last night we had:
- Raid member picked up right at the end of phase 2 and transported to the bottom level when the floor collapses. Affected player then can't see or be seen by other players, can't be targeted with abilities, registers as falling when trying to use abilities, and rubberbands back to the middle of the room when trying to move.
- Missing floor section after wipe.
- Phase 3 random aggro/regular aggro table reset making the boss extremely hard to position.
- Pylon hits in phase 3 not removing shield.
- Boss reset when MT mindtrapped in phase 3.
Mindtraps breaking automatically at the end of P2 is all very well, but you're still doomed if you're mindtrapped on the opposite side of the ring to the descent platform, you don't have time to get your bearings and rejoin the group before the outer ring collapses. This means you still have to juggle dps to trigger the end of the phase with everyone in position for the descent and no one in the air in the brief window between mindtrap and picking up a raid member. It's basically fixed nothing, unless you are lucky enough to randomly get someone mindtrapped near the descent when the boss is nearing the end of P2. If this mechanic was considered bugged before, it's still bugged now, as you have to use the exact same technique as before, except they've introduced a random 30% ish chance of easymode positioning on the last mindtrap of the phase.
Putting a delay in the middle of the fight, where you have to stop DPS and wait quite a long time for an uninterruptable boss mechanic to play its long scripted animation and put your raid member back down (e.g. Boss picks someone up when at 32% health.) seems particularly harsh when you're working against a timer.
It wouldn't be so bad if the affected player was targetable on the floor, and could be combat revived when the rest of the group got to the bottom.
As it is, it seems quite obvious that this regularly occuring set of circumstances simply didn't occur to the people designing this encounter, and they failed to code anything in for what should happen to players in the air during the P2/P3 transition. There's no scripted warning so you can stop DPS before he picks someone up, just a bit of audio telling you it happened after the fact. Affected players don't die, they don't really fall, they just get locked out of the rest of the fight.
Also don't know if we were just unlucky, or if the AOE lightning in P1 is now significantly more likely to occur where your healers/ranged are standing. On two of our attempts we were pushed well away from the spot where the first platform ends up, leading to a pretty desperate run for it before the perimeter collapsed. This was perhaps more noticeable in our group after the significant nerfs to sage AOE heals.
As it stands, this particular boss is WAY off the difficulty curve of the rest of the instance, and badly needs fixing.
As an aside to your quote about mind traps breaking automatically not mattering if they're on the wrong side of the room, you can drop down on either the west or the east side on the transition from phase 2 to 3 and meet up with the rest of the raid before needing heals.
- Raid member picked up right at the end of phase 2 and transported to the bottom level when the floor collapses. Affected player then can't see or be seen by other players, can't be targeted with abilities, registers as falling when trying to use abilities, and rubberbands back to the middle of the room when trying to move.
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Cool, thanks very much for the responses
Not too sure how we could have sped things up, both sides were using the panels as soon as they lit up but its good to know the reasoning behind the spawns. I'm guessing what happened is we got a spawn from locking a row + a spawn from the soft enrage timer thingy combined at once, though it only happened for south pylon. Shame the place is really buggy but it was a fun first raid for our guild
Spawns are 100% time based, there are no triggered spawns from locking rows, least of all double acklays.
It is entirely possible to finish the fight without seeing a single double acklay spawn, so they are definitely not in any way triggered by anything but time.
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Why do you expect bw to announce mechanic changes to raid bosses? That's stupid, I hope they don't ever do that. Let people find out on there own, it's way more fun.
The blur he's doing in p3 sounds like it could easily be intended (which is fine with me), but I'm sure there's a chance it's a bug.
I agree with the other things that are obviously bugs as they break the encounter and should be fixed asap.
Either way, all these expectations of having BW hold everyone's hand is getting old. Adapt or die.
Right, because it should be par for the course that we zone into the same ops every week expecting something different from the bosses inside them.
If they don't tell us what they mean to change then how are we supposed to know what is and isn't intended?
Hardcore Raider DPS - Dilemma - Being hindered by Threat mechanics. Please READ!
in Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
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This is very, very wrong.
If it were true, spamming assault would be the only viable method of holding threat on a Juggernaut, as it's the only attack that would hit faster than 1 attack per second.